DCEU light speed justification (again)

[sageof8paths]

I only ask that you read the entire thread and take my arguements into consideration before responding.

Intro:
So in this thread, it was concluded that Kryptonian heat vision does not meet the standards for it to be considered as light mainly because it was more “firey” than how light operates. In this thread I will be analyzing the justifications for why it should still count as light. I am not sure this would apply to the all DCEU profiles or just the Snyderverse.

Here’s what already we know:

According to the guide books, his heat vision is described as light:

It has light characteristics like moving in a straight line and reflecting:

However this was refuted because it was too “firey”.

Argument:
Recently, I watched the snydercut and I realized something.
when the amazons are trying to create a seal/case for the mother box, they put a magnifying glass directly in front of a beam of light coming from the sun:

In doing so they also create a “firey” like beam that is pretty much identical to kryptonian heat vision. Will we now conclude that the suns light shouldn’t be considered as light because it’s firey when magnified?

it just shows that in the Snyderverse/DCEU, very intense beams of sunlight appear as firey. After all, all the kryptonian’s are doing is expelling the sunlight that they absorbed in an intense manner.

Although the Snyderverse does not show realism when it comes to its approach of intense light, we know it does when it comes to light speed. For example The Flash being able to time travel takes into account the the theory of relativity etc.

It also canonically does not make sense for the flash to be over 3000 times (FTL) faster than superman (MHS) based on their fight whether he was holding back or not.

Conclusion:
All the light speed scaling should be used into play again.

 

[Propellus]

I was planning to do a blog post to bring back the SOL/Relativistic speed scaling back to the DCEU to gather up the evidence that I could find, but anyways, watching

 

[sageof8paths]

Do u agree with the thread?

I was planning to do a blog post to bring back the SOL/Relativistic speed scaling back to the DCEU to gather up the evidence that I could find, but anyways, watching

 

[Propellus]

I do agree with the thread, but I recommend more debunks against the anti feats which dismissed it as false beam of light

 

[Thelastmlg]

completely agree with this, light being shown in a different fashion when coming from a fictionally different kind of source does not make it any less "light" if it has enough properties, thoug if there are more arguments against it, we should deal with them as well

 

[sageof8paths]

What other anti feats where there?

I do agree with the thread, but I recommend more debunks against the anti feats which dismissed it as false beam of light

 

[Propellus]

"Clark having complete control of his powers"

"Clark heating up a door knob"

"Solar energy is not lightspeed"

"3.5K Kelvin is unrealistic"

"The heat vision is somehow tangible"

 

[Qawsedf234]

Recently, I watched the snydercut

Issue here being this.

The snydercut has no bearing on canon profiles and stuff from there cannot be used to justify scaling in other movies.

 

[Propellus]

Issue here being this.

The snydercut has no bearing on canon profiles and stuff from there cannot be used to justify scaling in other movies.

But then again, using this logic, the "anti-feats" given against the Heat Vision on that blog can't be used to dismiss anything

 

[Aguywhodoesthings]

I mean the other movies were directed by Snyder too no? That could just be the way he presents lasers/lightbeams in the verse in general

 

[Propellus]

I mean the other movies were directed by Snyder too no? That could just be the way he presents lasers/lightbeams in the verse in general

They were, they don't really contradict anything as seen in the earlier movies that Snyder directed. And I do know for sure that the HV doesn't explode on impact when they refract onto something, but if anyone's gonna say that it did, Superman simply shot at the gas tanks which caused them to explode. I guess you can say various guns are 9-A because they can cause cars to explode just by shooting at it's gas tank efficiently.

 

[sageof8paths]

Issue here being this.

The snydercut has no bearing on canon profiles and stuff from there cannot be used to justify scaling in other movies.

Not only is the Amazon scene likely in the theatrical cut, isn’t the snyderverse should directly scale to at least bvs and mos and even if it didn’t, it has its own profile on dceu characters does it not?

 

[sageof8paths]

I mean the other movies were directed by Snyder too no? That could just be the way he presents lasers/lightbeams in the verse in general

Precisely my point.

 

[sageof8paths]

"Clark having complete control of his powers"

"Clark heating up a door knob"

"Solar energy is not lightspeed"

"3.5K Kelvin is unrealistic"

"The heat vision is somehow tangible"

These are unrealistic points that expect these movies to strictly adhere to light in every way. The standards also do not say they need to adhere tho these.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So to quote our page

Most lasers in fiction are not real or provable as real. Often they are supernatural in nature and do not function anywhere close to how real light should. Therefore, lasers/light beams are only accepted as real if they meet, at a minimum, a few of these criteria:

• The beam refracts in a new material, such as a liquid or...
• The beam diffuses in a reasonably realistic way or reflects off a material that it can be expected to, such as a non-magical mirror.
• The beam is called lightspeed by reliable sources.
• It is stated to be composed/consisting of photons or light itself, again by a reliable source.
• It has its origin at a realistic source of light, such as a camera.

Furthermore, there are a few criteria which show a beam is NOT real light:

• It is shown at different speeds in the same material.
• It is tangible and can be interacted with physically by normal humans.
• They do not travel in straight lines (unless you can prove refraction/reflection, see above.)

Please note that the opposite of these criteria do not prove a beam is at lightspeed, merely that it could be, should it meet the first list of criteria. Should there be great evidence in favor of the light being real or lightspeed, comparably minor showing against it being real can be overruled.


This is not a full list of qualities that can qualify/disqualify a feat as a true laser/light beam, but they are what is taken as basic by this wiki.

So with all of that

For

• The guidebook states he fires beams of red light
• The reflect off Cyborg's shield in a straight line
• Various novel excerpts state the beams are lasers or like lasers (provided below)

Against (that were agreed to hold some water)

• They come from an unrealistic source
• They flower and bloom at times when they hit something they don't reflect off of
• They're shown to have physical force (Doomsday's beams pushing Superman back and Cyborg being tossed back from the force of Superman's heat vision)
• Clark is stated to have total control of his beams. While not brought up in the last thread a bunch it can theoretically be used to say he can control the speed (though why he, Zod or Doomsday would use anything but the max speed is put into question)
• The lightspeed calcs are notably beyond the other speed calcs in the series by a hilariously large margin

But to add from the previous thread I do have the novels that are (vaguely) canon to the DCEU. In there they do have the following mentions of heat vision

Clark’s eyes glowed like red suns. Twin laser beams cut through the base of the tree, causing it to fall across the river directly in front of Clark and his dog. Holding on to Shelby with one arm, Clark grabbed the slippery tree trunk and started to pull himself to shore. He hoped that the toppled tree trunk wouldn’t be carried away before he made it to safety.

Man of Steel: The Early years - Page 67

He had promised his parents that he wouldn’t reveal what he could do. And, now that he was older, he understood why it was so important. He didn’t want people to think he was different either. He just wanted to be treated like a normal kid, not a freak who shot laser beams from his eyes. Or who could outrace a school bus.

Man of Steel: The Early years - Page 50

The aurora barely provided enough light to see by. She lost sight of her quarry amid the rolling hills and depressions, but his tracks led her on. Rounding a stony outcropping, she spied an enormous glacier looming ahead. A bright ruby light, not unlike a laser beam, glowed at the base. Clouds of steam obscured her view.

Man of Steel (Novelization) - Pages 104-105

But by the same notion it the novels also described Heat Vision as energy beams

Crimson energy shot from his eyes, meeting the gravity beam head on. For a moment the two forces appeared evenly matched. Then, screaming from the strain, Superman broke the stalemate and drove himself upward into the belly of the World Engine. Turning his own indestructible body into a weapon, the Man of Steel burst through the crown of machine and shot into the churning alien clouds.

Man of Steel (Novelization) - Pages 272

Heat rays shot from his eyes, incinerating a molded control module that was rooted to the ceiling. The bridge pitched beneath them as the ship went into a tailspin.


Man of Steel (Novelization) - Pages 282

I mean the other movies were directed by Snyder too no?

MoS and BvS were. But the rest weren't

Overall we do accept it, there's evidence to back it. But if we don't want to accept it because of the inconsistences that's also not bad.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

• They come from an unrealistic source

Coming from a realistic source is something to support the speed of light, but coming from something unrealistic is not an antifeat

 

[Qawsedf234]

but coming from something unrealistic is not an antifeat

It is. Its just not a hard anti-feat vs a hard feat for a realistic source.

Or in other words its only worth like -1 vs +10 for a real source.

 

[Qawsedf234]

non-existent sources in the real world

Every source of light in the real world is from a realistic source.

Heat vision are from cellular energy being funneled through someone's eyes. Its an anti-showing just not one that can deny the rating by itself. Its why this part is mentioned

comparably minor showing against it being real can be overruled.

Since its minor enough to ignore on its own.

 

[sageof8paths]

So to quote our page

So with all of that

For

• The guidebook states he fires beams of red light
• The reflect off Cyborg's shield in a straight line
• Various novel excerpts state the beams are lasers or like lasers (provided below)

Against (that were agreed to hold some water)

• They come from an unrealistic source
• They flower and bloom at times when they hit something they don't reflect off of
• They're shown to have physical force (Doomsday's beams pushing Superman back and Cyborg being tossed back from the force of Superman's heat vision)
• Clark is stated to have total control of his beams. While not brought up in the last thread a bunch it can theoretically be used to say he can control the speed (though why he, Zod or Doomsday would use anything but the max speed is put into question)
• The lightspeed calcs are notably beyond the other speed calcs in the series by a hilariously large margin

But to add from the previous thread I do have the novels that are (vaguely) canon to the DCEU. In there they do have the following mentions of heat vision



But by the same notion it the novels also described Heat Vision as energy beams



MoS and BvS were. But the rest weren't

Overall we do accept it, there's evidence to back it. But if we don't want to accept it because of the inconsistences that's also not bad.

So for some of the debunks, the standards said they didn’t have to adhere to all of the rules just a few. I’ve also shown u proof of natural sun light interacting with physical things as well. You could also prove that it’s from a realistic source as it’s literally just intense sun light as I proved above. I think in-canon statements should be above our calcs no? Cuz if so flash being able to easily go far faster than the speed of light shouldn’t make the relativistic scaling be an outlier. For an example we can react to flash tapping her sword to her.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Every source of light in the real world is from a realistic source.

Heat vision are from cellular energy being funneled through someone's eyes. Its an anti-showing just not one that can deny the rating by itself. Its why this part is mentioned

Since its minor enough to ignore on its own.

I deleted the comment a long time ago, I had explained it wrong

 

[sageof8paths]

Every source of light in the real world is from a realistic source.

Heat vision are from cellular energy being funneled through someone's eyes. Its an anti-showing just not one that can deny the rating by itself. Its why this part is mentioned

Since its minor enough to ignore on its own.

The thing about a lot of these debunks is that I’ve proven that realistic sources of light like sunlight has the exact same qualities as heat vision. It’s just the way intense light works in the universe

 

[Propellus]

The timeframe of the HV were never inconsistent when it's shown on screen many times

 

[Qawsedf234]

Cuz if so flash being able to easily go far faster than the speed of light shouldn’t make the relativistic scaling be an outlier

Flash is only (explicitly) FTL in the SnyderCut. Which is important since him going FTL is something notable and massively different from his previous speeds (besides the motherbox). If he never entered that speed before, him freezing Wonder Woman and Aquaman in place makes the idea he's FTL questionable.

 

[sageof8paths]

Flash is only (explicitly) FTL in the SnyderCut. Which is important since him going FTL is something notable and massively different from his previous speeds (besides the motherbox). If he never entered that speed before, him freezing Wonder Woman and Aquaman in place makes the idea he's FTL questionable.

I’m pretty sure I said smth like this bf but if the snydercut is where the changes are only applicable, I don’t see what’s wrong with the snydercut profiles being different from the main.

 

[Qawsedf234]

if the snydercut is where the changes are only applicable, I don’t see what’s wrong with the snydercut profiles being different from the main.

No what I meant is that the SnyderCut would be harder to argue that they're Rel+ because of the Flash. He completely statues the rest of the League besides Superman, but he does so without going FTL. Which wouldn't make sense if he was at best 1.3x their speed or whatever.

 

[Propellus]

No what I meant is that the SnyderCut would be harder to argue that they're Rel+ because of the Flash. He completely statues the rest of the League besides Superman, but he does so without going FTL. Which wouldn't make sense if he was at best 1.3x their speed or whatever.

But then again, wouldn't it be scoffed off as calc stacking which would give the results MFTL+ ratings?

 

[sageof8paths]

No what I meant is that the SnyderCut would be harder to argue that they're Rel+ because of the Flash. He completely statues the rest of the League besides Superman, but he does so without going FTL. Which wouldn't make sense if he was at best 1.3x their speed or whatever.

It only looks like he’s statuing them but in reality he’s not. Like the example I gave, when he tapped ww’s sword she’s able to react to it even tho it looks like she’s frozen. Another example is when aquaman and the flash ambush superman at the same time, in flash time, aquaman is still visble moving quite fast for someone besides superman.

 

[Qawsedf234]

But then again, wouldn't it be scoffed off as calc stacking which would give the results MFTL+ ratings?

That's not calc stacking, its narrative inconsistency due to how going FTL is treated by the movie. The fact Diana has a calc putting her at like .75c means that the Flash freezing her just contradicts the entirely narrative about him needing windup to go FTL and how it effects the environment.

It only looks like he’s statuing them but in reality he’s not.

He's still well over 1.25x their speed though, which is the important part.

 

[sageof8paths]

you could also argue that supes is ftl but since he isn’t connected to the speed force time doesn’t bend to his speed. Especially when he outflew a black hole, Yes ik the standards don’t count it as a black hole but I’m just using it as supporting evidence.

 

[sageof8paths]

That's not calc stacking, its narrative inconsistency due to how going FTL is treated by the movie. The fact Diana has a calc putting her at like .75c means that the Flash freezing her just contradicts the entirely narrative about him needing windup to go FTL and how it effects the environment.

He's still well over 1.25x their speed though, which is the important part.

Her calc was .22c iirc. She never had a relativistic+ on her profile.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Her calc was .22c iirc. She never had a relativistic+ on her profile.

Yeah you're right. I had flipped numbers somewhere in my mind

 

[Propellus]

That's not calc stacking, its narrative inconsistency due to how going FTL is treated by the movie. The fact Diana has a calc putting her at like .75c means that the Flash freezing her just contradicts the entirely narrative about him needing windup to go FTL and how it effects the environment.

I meant by calcing the feat while Flash was running around perceiving everyone in slow motion. Quoting what I've
came up with in a different thread.

I'm pretty sure it's like this after looking at this

(2298709.65/ 0.013) *2298709.65 = 406,466,619,615,625 (FTL)

 

[Aguywhodoesthings]

I meant by calcing the feat while Flash was running around perceiving everyone in slow motion. Quoting what I've
came up with in a different thread.

Calc stacking aside the calc is wrong because you're using the calculated speed as Superman's and Flash's perceived speed, and neighter of them appear to be moving at hypersonic speeds while in slow motion

 

[sageof8paths]

Calc stacking aside the calc is wrong because you're using the calculated speed as Superman's and Flash's perceived speed, and neighter of them appear to be moving at hypersonic speeds while in slow motion

I need clarification on what your thoughts are on this thread. Do u agree that the “firey” beams is just how Snyder and his vfx team depicts intense light based on the evidence provided?

 

[Aguywhodoesthings]

I need on what your thoughts are on this thread. Do u agree that the “firey” beams is just how Snyder and his vfx depicts intense light based on the evidence provided?

Yeah that makes sense to me

 

[Propellus]

Calc stacking aside the calc is wrong because you're using the calculated speed as Superman's and Flash's perceived speed, and neighter of them appear to be moving at hypersonic speeds while in slow motion

True, but would it have been calculable either way?

 

[sageof8paths]

Yeah that makes sense to me

Alr 1 one vote. Thanks for being a guy who does things.

 

[Aguywhodoesthings]

True, but would it have been calculable either way?

It's calculable if you don't use a calculated speed for the characters, you could assume that the slowed justice league are superhuman in speed (just as an example)
For Superman and Flash you can assume they're moving at human speeds probably, they don't seem to be moving very fast in the slow-motion

 

[Propellus]

It's calculable if you don't use a calculated speed for the characters, you could assume that the slowed justice league are superhuman in speed (just as an example)
For Superman and Flash you can assume they're moving at human speeds probably, they don't seem to be moving very fast in the slow-motion

So like this?

Given that the average human speed is 5 and the running speed is 6.35

So going with the lower one:

(2298709.65/ 0.013) * 5 = 884119096.154 m/s (FTL)

Higher end:

2298709.65/ 0.013) *6.35 = 1122831252.12 m/s (Massively FTL)

 

[Aguywhodoesthings]

So like this?

Given that the average human speed is 5 and the running speed is 6.35

So going with the lower one:

(2298709.65/ 0.013) * 5 = 884119096.154 m/s (FTL)

Higher end:

2298709.65/ 0.013) *6.35 = 1122831252.12 m/s (Massively FTL)

Yeah that's better, you'd still have to use something other than Superman's flight speed as the JL's speed tho