dccosmology and why I don't understand the presence is below the prime monitor lol

[Rardin2]

DC cosmology respect thread


Let's talk about something rather pertinent, first of all. It's a common misconception both in and out of universe. The Current DC Multiverse, New 52 Multiverse, does not consist of 52 Universes. It consists of 52 "Known" Universes:

http://i.imgur.com/8gIu3Oe.jpg


You'll notice it refers to something called the "Local Multiverse". This is referring to the fact there is in fact multiple multiverses in DC. More on that later.

But if there are more then 52 universes then how many universes are there. Well when one crosses The Bleed Barrier, the divider between universes it was found there are infinite universes:

http://i.imgur.com/QsCAqWV.jpg


In fact the "infinite vastness" is so large that one can find countless versions of oneself across it:

http://i.imgur.com/7KoE5SW.png

this seems the best description of the multiverse and it's perception both for the fictional characters and for the real people debating it.

http://i.imgur.com/mZ7v3RA.png


However Final Crisis Secret Files implies that the Bleed Barrier has within it multiple multiverses:

http://i.imgur.com/6IVsc9M.jpg?1


DC does not generally use the term "megaverse", that's usually a Marvel thing. However it does occasionally, seemingly to refer to all universes within the Bleed Barrier and within the Speed Force Wall. For instance:

http://i.imgur.com/DRA49WP.png

The Events of Convergence theoretically brought back all past multiverses into continuity before based on this quote:

Another thing this event will do is answer readers' questions as to what previous continuity counts and which doesn't. Where are certain characters that we haven't seen since the New 52 started? Co-Publisher Jim Lee said the following:

"What we're really addressing is they all exist and have existed and exist within the framework of the New 52," Lee told the newspaper. "'Convergence' is in many ways the most meta epic event we've done.

http://www.comicvine.com/articles/dc-comics-announces-next-weekly-event-convergence/1100-150284/


And it's not singular universes either, it is entire multiverses coming back into canon: https://twitter.com/dandidio1/status...rc=twsrc^tfw


And there are significantly more multiverses then the known ones within the Bleed Barrier.

http://i.imgur.com/sS3UOch.jpg?1


Interestingly the implication is that multiverses exist on a spectrum where closer ones are more similar then the ones farther similar to the nature of universes in a multiverse.

Generally when discussing things above the Multiverse we speak of the Metaverse. A description of the metaverse:

http://i.imgur.com/VBpaWha.jpg?1

I should mention that the universes are parts of the true reality in the Sphere of the Gods. The Sphere of the Gods exist outside the Speed Force Wall and consists of the realms of deity-like beings. These have a very direct relation to the abstract concepts within the lower Reality. For instance in Skyland is the land of the Old Gods and one of the Realms of The Sphere of the Gods, such as Ares. Ares is the war god and his power i directly related to how much conflict there is.

These Realms are far, far larger then the DC universes. All mortal universes exist in bubbles in the reality of New Genesis. http://i.imgur.com/rTQ763x.png


The realities of the Sphere of the Gods exist in dualities: Skyland and Underworld Nightmare and Dream Hell and Heaven Apokalips and New Genesis

However all of this is getting into the fundamentals of what the DC reality is.

Let's talk of Hypertime. Hypertime is the metafictional nature of DC. It's the idea of "story". This is the DC wiki's explanation of it:

Quote: Hypertime, the overarching and interconnected web of timelines and realities, presumably existed for almost as long as creation itself. Events in the Central Timeline often create temporal ripples, creating divergent paths of history that exist on their own separate timelines. These timelines occasionally intersect, resulting in changes to history that are usually not even noticed by the inhabitants of a timeline. These changes range from minor (a momentary difference in a person's clothing or costume) to major (a complete rewriting of a person's history). If a being from one Hypertimeline spends too long in another, it can cause ghost-like "echoes" of other worlds to bleed through, as witnessed by Rose D'Angelo and Batman in The Kingdom: Planet Krypton. It is also possible to enter the space between Hypertimelines, where all possible worlds are visible through an endless series of dimensional "windows."


The DC reality works like a river where various parts of it branch off and then rejoin at various points. To put it simply. Thus we have the grand DC "omniverse", a term that is used occasionally:

http://i.imgur.com/0HsZnsl.png


as in every universe within the Multiverses in the Bleed, as well as the Sphere of the Gods, the Higher Reality of those universes, all under the Metaverse in Hypertime.

However all of that is the "story" of DC. All of that is contained within Limbo. In fact all of that is within the Book of Endless Pages, the Book contained the story of DC:

http://i.imgur.com/ZZnfo5F.png

Limbo is part of the Monitor Realm. The Monitor Realm is the edge between Reality and Non-existence. Because all stories possible in Hypertime (So all Stories) are contained within the Book of Infinite Pages, there are no stories in Limbo:

http://i.imgur.com/8qMUjxZ.jpg?1


In order to even battle Mandrakk, Cosmic Armor Superman had to spontaneously create a Hyper-Story, taking advantage of their fictional nature:

http://i.imgur.com/HY6I7yV.jpg?1

The whole of DC including The Monitor Realm and the very edge, the Source Wall, is generally called "Creation" referencing it's creation by God/The Presence. The whole of Creation is actually a character in and of itself as shown in Marvel vs DC: Spoiler: Show

http://i.imgur.com/RwsSyrK.png

And then beyond all that is the Overmonitor who dwarfs the Omniverse http://i.imgur.com/5AYADe9.png

And then we have God above even that; while Overmonitor had difficulty dealing with Creation, God was able to hold all of Creation in one hand:

http://i.imgur.com/MPRqO8x.jpg?1

Also if anyone tries to claim "lol less dimensions" I should mention that DC has infinite dimensions, both temporal:

http://i.imgur.com/1Mn0Hzt.jpg

and spatial: http://i.imgur.com/Xq1N0fu.jpg?1

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-...iversity_Map_2400_53ee6b4c22d9a9.11031355.jpg

 

[Antvasima]

You are attempting to find coherence between different writers where none is to be found. The Infinite Universes grouped into small (52 universes each) multiverses part is legitimate as a majot plot point of a major event.

However, much of western fiction, comics in particular, usually tends to use "dimension" as a description of a pocket reality, not a spatial or temporal direction. Unless it is explicitly clarified we cannot remotely use it as proof.

The original definition of an Omniverse is all of fiction and reality combined, not just DC. If they at some point clarify that they use it for an assembly of DC multiverses it is not the true definition of the omniverse anymore.

Hypertime is just two-dimensional time, but is an old concept that DC does not use anymore.

The Presence can only be gauged from the context of the stories that he appeared within, not those of other people, given that they tend to contradict each other greatly depending on the writer and era.

From the context of Mike Carey's Lucifer comicbook, creation was just the totality of a multiverse (whuch is very different from/ridiculously greater than just infinite parallel universes), the Presence was created by humanity, not the other way around, he was recently killed by an unknown metal, and we can only scale him from being far superior to Michael Demiurgos.

Also, viewing all of lower reality as a story is something that even low tiers in Umineko can do.

 

[Rardin2]

You are attempting to find coherence between different writers where none is to be found. The Infinite Universes grouped into small (52 universes each) multiverses part is legitimate as a majot plot point of a major event.
However, much of western fiction, comics in particular, usually tends to use "dimension" as a description of a pocket reality, not a spatial or temporal direction. Unless it is explicitly clarified we cannot remotely use it as proof.

The original definition of an Omniverse is all of fiction and reality combined, not just DC. If they at some point clarify that they use it for an assembly of DC multiverses it is not the true definition of the omniverse anymore.

Hypertime is just two-dimensional time, but is an old concept that DC does not use anymore.

The Presence can only be gauged from the context of the stories that he appeared within, not those of other people, given that they tend to contradict each other greatly depending on the writer and era.

From the context of Mike Carey's Lucifer comicbook, creation was just the totality of a multiverse (whuch is very different from/ridiculously greater than just infinite parallel universes), the Presence was created by humanity, not the other way around, he was recently killed by an unknown metal, and we can only scale him from being far superior to Michael Demiurgos.

Also, viewing all of lower reality as a story is something that even low tiers in Umineko can do.

yet that is not the true presence that he killed its a non cannon version the only cannical version of the presence to appear has only appeared twice throughout the dc entirity he revived the justice league and in the green lantern comics showed the presence holding the multiverse in his hands those are the only acctual times he has done anything so in a sense he is not dead in the cannon universe just in a spinoff series


also you stated the definition of the omniverse thing that would mean no fictional character including marvel and others has a omniversal being then

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the version of the Presence that has actually appeared as a character, does seem to have these limitations, and seems to be canon.

And yes, if we use the true original definition of omniverse, no fictional character can reach that level. They are all limited to their own fictional franchises.

 

[Rardin2]

Well, the version of the Presence that has actually appeared as a character, does seem to have these limitations, and seems to be canon.
And yes, if we use the true original definition of omniverse, no fictional character can reach that level. They are all limited to their own fictional franchises.

from what i have heard they are seperate from the MAIN canocal version of the dc multiverse it may be cannon in that realm however the MAIN storyline presence is not dead just there is no acctual information about him the only thing that gives us an IDEA about what he could be is the vertigo comics version but thats not the MAIN cannon series

 

[Antvasima]

Well, Dream of the Endless seems to have crossed paths with regular DC characters on various occasions, the Sandman series heavily used DC mythology, and Destiny was featured in the DC Multiverse map in Multiversity (seen above), among other things. So my impression is that Sandman and its spinoff Lucifer are within DC continuity.

 

[Antvasima]

In addition, othervise the supposed alternative version of the character basically does not exist, as it has not appeared anywhere, whereas the Primal Monitor very much has.

 

[Rardin2]

In addition, othervise the supposed alternative version of the character basically does not exist, as it has not appeared anywhere, whereas the Primal Monitor very much has.

you mean the presence he has appeared in the main continuity of the series only twice as i said when he revived the justice league in the 1940s and in the green lantern series as a hand holding the multiverse around the time anti monitor was created or are you talking about a different character either way we will have to wait and see what happens in the future of dc comics to see what happens with his character

 

[Antvasima]

Well, reviving the Justice League is comparatively unimpressive, as is holding a universe.

 

[Rardin2]

Well, reviving the Justice League is comparatively unimpressive, as is holding a universe.

you missed the point im saying that is the ONLY times he has APPEARED in the main story not as impressive feats

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we would still not have anything else to gauge this supposed separate character by. Just compare with Eru lluvatar. Also, I still do not think that they are separate.

 

[Rardin2]

Well, we would still not have anything else to gauge this supposed separate character by. Just compare with Eru lluvatar. Also, I still do not think that they are separate.

As you said they could and could not be seperate I was just going by what people have told me due to difference in story and timeline but we will have to wait and see what happens I guess.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will close this thread then.