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DC Vertigo Vs. Chaos Gods

Pretty sure DC's gods win 10/10 times due to how outrageously high into High 1-B they are and even then, are nigh impossible to kill.
 
Ok should I restrict the dc God's to just their mid godly Regenerationn and restrict type 8 immortality ?
 
I Don't know man the Chaos Gods have some really good hax to make up for it and equal as hard to kill. How high are they in they into high 1-B.
 
The difference between 1-A and the warp gods is too much for composite human to fathom.

The endless can kill 1-A people under the right conditions
 
Two of them are even listed as being at least high 1B due to managing to marginally affect Lucifer, a 1A. Vertigo high 1Bs are among the strongest you can make a High 1B, considering the visual novel high 1Bs that got upgraded to full 1A aren't high 1B anymore.
 
Desire, Destruction, and Delirium are not among those, though.

Destiny and Death sure as hell are. Though Death has no claim over Lucifer, she's still ridiculously high.
 
Not sure about Delirium being so weak, she threatened Destiny once and even Dream admitted that Delirium could trap him inside her realm.Daniel also admitted that he could drive him insane

Im also pretty sure that Dream can affect 1-As with his reality rewriting (which he does by bringing the dreams of a 1000 dreamers into reality) since it is the "the external force" that the Presence mentioned

When Death visited Lucifer, Death also said that she knows that it is not his time yet (implying that Death will one day claim Lucifer himself) and Lucifer even admitted that Death is inevitable
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
I'm pretty sure Lucy has both directly threatened Death and said she has no claim over him, to which she agreed.
Click to expand...
She didnt have a claim on him on that time because it isnt his time yet to die.Plus Lucifer himself said that even going to the Void isnt escaping Death, just stretching the rules a litte.Lucifer called Death inevitable

Silk Man: I have cheated the death of all things

Lucifer: I'm sure Death has her own opinion about transaction, postponing the inevitable isn't cheating just stretching the rules a little

"From birth to death.How small our circuits are.How unerringly we find the path that will unmake us.Even we who call ourselves immortal"

  • Lucifer was stuck in Death's realm until the next miracle which was when Meleos tricked Elaine into trading her life.
 
Lucifer calling Death inevitable for the Silk Man isn't the same as him stating that he too will die. It especially isn't the same if we don't know if Lucifer will die permanently.

Especially when he says the opposite.

Lucifer being stuck in Death's realm until the next "miracle" isn't him being completely dead, either.

Death has never shown the ability to "kill" or "claim" Lucifer for good.
 
Isnt death where she is due to her claim on Destiny, who kinda affected 1A characters?
 
Death didnt visit Lucifer to claim him, she didnt have a claim on him for the same reason she doesnt have a claim on Luthors soul when she visited him.Its not his time yet and Death knew it, she even said it herself

She only came there to talk.Plus Death doesnt forcefully claim anyone.Its up to the persons soul to decide whether or not he wants to come with Death or not.

Plus this implies that Lucifer can die.

"From birth to death.How small our circuits are.How unerringly we find the path that will unmake us.Even we who call ourselves immortal"

Death has never shown the ability to "kill" or "claim" Lucifer for good.

Because Death never claims anyone when it isnt their time yet.Which is the case for Lucifer

Lucifer being stuck in Death's realm until the next "miracle" isn't him being completely dead, either.

Anyone that dies goes into Deaths realm where they decide where they want to go.It's the choice of the deceased to decide their fate.Everyone who dreams goes to the Dreaming when they dream, everything that dies goes into Death's Realm when they die

Also Lucifer being stuck in Death's realm until the next miracle means pretty much his pretty dead, specially if that next miracle is Elaine trading her life for Lucifers.

If Lucifer can just bring himself back easily then he wouldnt need Elaine in the first place
 
This implies there's a time when Lucifer would die "for good" and not just be able to come back, which I'm pretty sure isn't the case. Especially since, as you say, she can't claim anyone when it isn't their time, which it never will (or should be) for Lucy.

It also seems completely counterintuitive to assume something like Night can never, ever die, while Lucifer can, and yet also assume Lucifer's utter superiority.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
This implies there's a time when Lucifer would die "for good" and not just be able to come back, which I'm pretty sure isn't the case. Especially since, as you say, she can't claim anyone when it isn't their time, which it never will (or should be) for Lucy.
It also seems completely counterintuitive to assume something like Night can never, ever die, while Lucifer can, and yet also assume Lucifer's utter superiority.
Click to expand...
The Presence became God because people believe he was.There are past versions of Creation where the Presence doesnt exists (such as the world of cats) or the creation of Silk Man

Gods are shaped by the beliefs of humanity, the Endless arent, they are the functions of reality that even allowed these changes to happen.There wouldnt be a Presence if there's no Dream.

Mike_Carey_explains_The_Presence.jpg


http://68.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l57z8mFuCV1qag189.jpg

About Mother Night and Father Time, they existed even before all versions of Creation so yes Mother Night can probably never die.They are what allows these Creations in the first place

There's no Presence or Lucifer in past versions of the universe because they only existed when people believed that they do, that they are Gods.But Death is the same throughout all versions of Creation and she already claimed the Creation of Silk which isnt shaped by God.

"Even our existence is brief and bounded.None of us will last longer than this version of the universe"

"Except our sister"

There's a chance that she already claimed beings similar to Lucifer or maybe even the Presence in these versions of Creation
 
"There wouldnt be a Presence if there's no Dream."

This is wildly counterintuitive both to itself and the actual ratings these characters have been given.
 
The Presence was stated both in story and by the writer to be shaped by dreams.Even referring to the Dreams of a Thousand Cats

If Dream doesnt exist to do what he did in Overture and in Dreams of a Thousand cats then the Presence wouldnt exists.

its even noted on the Presence's profile:

The Presence has stated that he was shaped by external forces, apparently intended to be the beliefs and imaginations of humanity, rather than a 4th Wall reference to the writers or real-world humans. This concept was introduced in The Sandman: A Dream of a Thousand Cats, which depicts that originally cats were the dominant species on Earth, being giant beasts which hunted humans. However, the collected dream of a world where humans ruled over cats altered reality from it's very beginning, making it so that humans were always larger than cats.

 
"Ie the minds of sentient beings across the universe. We make our gods for ourselves, in our own image."

This is meant as a comment on religion, as the Presence, Lucifer, and Michael are.

You cannot literally turn this into "Dream of the Endless created the Presence".

Especially with all the changes and alterations that have happened to the DC/Vertigo cosmology.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
"Ie the minds of sentient beings across the universe. We make our gods for ourselves, in our own image."
This is meant as a comment on religion, as the Presence, Lucifer, and Michael are.

You cannot literally turn this into "Dream of the Endless created the Presence".

Especially with all the changes and alterations that have happened to the DC/Vertigo cosmology.
Click to expand...
Dreams and beliefs changed everything in Vertigo, so it isnt merely a comment on religion when it is exactly how the verse operates

Thats how the titans nearly replaced the Presence.Thats why Dream was able to re-create Creation in Overture, how Dream recreated Creation in Dreams of a Thousand Cast and that also was used to explain the external force

'Becauses it is the nature of Dreams, and ONLY of Dreams, to define Reality. Destiny is bound to existence'. Death is limited by what she will or will not accept" -The Sandman: Overture
 
Dream altering the state of reality is obviously canon.

Dream being the source of the Presence, is not.

If it were, it would not imply that Dream can affect 1-As, but that the Presence, Lucifer, and Michael were never 1-A, to begin with.
 
Dream altering the state of reality is obviously canon.

Dream being the source of the Presence, is not.

Dreams and belierfs are the external force that shaped the Presence.So in a way dreams and beliefs are the cause of the Presence's Creation.

If you believe it isnt then that note on the Presence's profile should be removed

Dream should also be at least High 1-B for rewriting Destiny's Book.
 
yes, mock me all you want.

I'm not saying that they should be 1-A.Pls read again.I know that Presence>>Dream

I'm saying that the Presence was created because of dreams and belief.Which is what was said in the comics.By the writer and even noted in the Presences page

it's not some simple comment on religion because that's how the verse really operates
 
If the supreme god of a verse was created by darkness, it doesn't mean the lower-level God of Darkness of the verse is above it in hax.
 
That would imply that everyone in 40K is 1B because of how the chaos gods+other warp entities work.
 
In Sandman Overture, the power of 1,000 collective-dreams is explicitly stronger than the power of Dream of the Endless himself.

Dream embodies his namesake, but he isn't above the total potential of what he embodies, weirdly enough. The raw power of dreams, ideas, new concepts, imagination, creativity (All of which are related to the Writing process, curiously enough) is what gave rise to The Presence, even though in a way much like the Chaos Gods and YHVH, The Presence always existed and created the beings who would create him.

This is also why Death isn't above Lucifer or the Presence, despite both being well capable of dying. Just because something can die doesn't mean that the embodiment of Death is above them. Otherwise Marvel Death would be above the likes of The Tribunal, The Beyonders, The First Firmament, and Oblivion.
 
yes, thanks matthew that's what I was trying to say.

But what I found interesting is that Dream and Glory of the First Circle (who looks like Isaac Asimov) were only one who seems to be unchanged after these rewrites
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
In Sandman Overture, the power of 1,000 collective-dreams is explicitly stronger than the power of Dream of the Endless himself.

Dream embodies his namesake, but he isn't above the total potential of what he embodies, weirdly enough. The raw power of dreams, ideas, new concepts, imagination, creativity (All of which are related to the Writing process, curiously enough) is what gave rise to The Presence, even though in a way much like the Chaos Gods and YHVH, The Presence always existed and created the beings who would create him.

This is also why Death isn't above Lucifer or the Presence, despite both being well capable of dying. Just because something can die doesn't mean that the embodiment of Death is above them. Otherwise Marvel Death would be above the likes of The Tribunal, The Beyonders, The First Firmament, and Oblivion.
Click to expand...
What would this mean to Mother Night and Father Time? they're coming together was said to be what made dreams possible, and all versions of Creation exist because of them? wouldn't this make them above the power of dreams?
 
They are super vague. They appear in like one issue each and don't get much clarification.

However, we are getting continuations of the Vertigo stories on the new Sandman Universe line

https://www.cbr.com/dc-comics-neil-gaiman-the-sandman-universe/

We are getting a new Sandman, Lucifer, Books of Magic stories. No doubt there'll prolly be crossovers too. I wonder if Dream's adventures in Batman Metal will account to what's going on there.
 
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