TheDarkOne
He/Him- 22
- 12
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Yes I agree her Diminished State key should be fixed. personally i thinkI think there's some deeper reasonings for not scaling her because even before this thread, she was only stated to be Low 1-C and the "possibly 1-A" wasn't there
At least Low Complex Multiverse level, Possibly Outerverse level (Perpetua was said to be the only one who could fight against. "The Darkest Knight" at that time, even though she was defeated him.)
SadThis 1-A is temporary,
At least Low 1-C, Likely 1-A? Or a straight up 1-A?Yes I agree her Diminished State key should be fixed. personally i think
It's heartbreaking. All the upgrades we do before the revisions, will vanish in the blink of an eye when they come
I personally think At least Low 1-C, "Possibly" 1-A safest, for herAt least Low 1-C, Likely 1-A? Or a straight up 1-A?
I am good with thisI personally think At least Low 1-C, "Possibly" 1-A safest, for her
Perpetua should be 1-A as well as the whole Hand species although she should be lower than TDK.Yeah I think we can all agree TDK should be 1-A(Deagon agreed too). We just need to figure out Perpetua.
The Hands and True Form Perpetua are already 1-A, we just need to decide In-Multiverse PerpetuaPerpetua should be 1-A as well as the whole Hand species although she should be lower than TDK.
She should be a minimum of at-least High 1-CThe Hands and True Form Perpetua are already 1-A, we just need to decide In-Multiverse Perpetua
High 1-C from what, because her awakening caused the fifth dimension dying die, right?She should be a minimum of at-least High 1-C
I think we can continue talking here. We just need to make Perpetua "At least Low 1-C, possibly 1-A" right?Conclude this thread should do with key "Diminished State" of Perpetua, continue talk here or create another thread?
Seems legitAll scans from Death Metal #7
So this is what is currently stated in The Darkest Knight's profile:
Let's see the statements for TDK>Hands and then I will explain why TDK didn't contradict himself.
Darkest Knight>Hands
There are four main statements for this.
Scan 1. This scan is not as blatant as the other scans but it does give the implication that TDK is superior to The Hands. This scan is also the most popular one used by fans to claim TDK>
Scan 2. This scan is very blatant. When Wonder Woman is about to defeat TDK by pushing him into the Death Sun, he explicitly says that he can kill The Hands.
Scan 3. This scan is by far the best evidence, as The Hands themselves directly confirm their inferiority to TDK. They quite literally mention how WW saved them from him. This makes sense, considering TDK was consistently portrayed in the storyline to be a threat to the entire Multiverse, all creation and existence.
Scan 4. This is the controversial scan, TDK explicitly states again that he could kill The Hands but due to some misinterpretation of the text, some have been led to believe he contradicted himself on that statement. I will address this here.
The Darkest Knight did not contradict himself
The controversy comes from the third speech bubble of the scan. I will state the entire quote here:
The keyword there is "will". What does will mean? According to google: expressing the future tense.
He's not saying that the Hands are presently stronger than him, he's saying that they will get stronger than him in the future if WW fights him. You may think I am playing with semantics, but I am not, because when you look at the larger context, it makes perfect sense.
Let's take a look at what's happening in the scan. TDK tells WW that she has only two choices.
1: In the first choice, she would fight him pointlessly until the Hands get more powerful than them and destroy the Universe.
2: In the second choice, she would not fight him but would rather give up and surrender. In this case, TDK would go kill The Hands and then give WW and her friends a paradise.
What he's saying basically, is not that The Hands are stronger than him. If that was the case, the second choice would make no sense. What he's saying is that, if WW fights him, they would both get weakened and this in turn would make the Hands superior to them. The Hands are, not in their base, superior, but they are, when TDK and WW are not at their prime. This is especially strengthened by the fact that TDK was powered up by Crisis Energy while WW was powered up by Anti-Crisis Energy. Neither of those energies are unlimited, if used too much, they can end. They are limited power sources that needs to be recharged. Granted, both TDK and WW did have strong supplies, but just a point to note.
Now assume my interpretation is the truth. There wouldn't be any contradiction(which there shouldn't be for nigh-omniscient characters anyway). TDK is merely saying that he's more powerful in his base form, but weaker in his lesser forms. The Hands themselves confirm this, making it pretty much legit.
Something irrelevant to the rest of my post
Not really relevant to the rest of my post, and not something I care about nearly as much, but I asked in the Q&A forum if Perpetua and TDK gets plot manip for ripping apart stories and the answer was a yes
The Hands can also destroy stories, so maybe Perpetua and co. should get Plot Manip?
Conclusion
The Darkest Knight doesn't just possibly scale to the Hands, he fully and completely scales to, and above them. He should hence lose his "possibly".
Also, while counterarguments are welcome(I am all for a good discussion), please remember to be civil. Insults take away the fun after all!
EDIT: The CRT was passed and applied but now we have to worry about In-Multiverse Perpetua's ratings. Here's why I think she should get a possibly/likely/solid 1-A too.
1: The power to create the Source Wall(1-A) wasn't enough to beat her when she was weakened(Justice League #33)
2: She could rival The Darkest Knight who is now no longer Low 1-C but a solid 1-A(Death Metal: Rise of the New God)
3: The Anti-Monitor when becoming the Ultra-Monitor said he was beyond anything he was before, which would include his True Form(1-A). A weakened Perpetua not only matched the Ultra-Monitor but he also admitted his power alone wasn't enough to beat her(still weakened)(Justice League #33)
I would disagree with plot manipulation. I agree with the rest of the thread, but not this part.the Plot Manip would stay though.
What do you think of The Hands' statement I gave for plot manip?I would disagree with plot manipulation. I agree with the rest of the thread, but not this part.
I saw the other thread you linked regarding that, one user said it would be plot manip if it was taken literally, but I don't think that it should be taken literally. I believe that Chronicler was speaking metaphorically. His job is to record the stories of the multiverse in his book, so he speaks in that context, but what TDK and Perpetua are doing isn't literally related to stories or metafictional concepts.
I believe so yeahdoes it affect the universe if he did?
And how it works exactly? Mind explainingWhat do you think of The Hands' statement I gave for plot manip?
I believe so yeah
The Hands can destroy stories, so maybe Perpetua should get plot manipulation.And how it works exactly? Mind explaining
And how are stories written? And by whom? And what do you mean by destroying them? I will give an example of how I understand:The Hands can destroy stories, so maybe Perpetua should be plot manipulation.
More like ripping apart the book with your bare hands, and this affects the Multiverse.Story = book, destroying story = burning the book, and this affects the reality, right?
Who wrote this book?More like ripping apart the book with your bare hands, and this affects the Multiverse.
Also, not sure how this helps, but here, TDK gave an implication that Batman is a reactionary idea and that he is superior to it.
I don't believe it's enough to assume it isn't metaphorical. Nothing about the storyline suggests to me that metafiction is in play here.What do you think of The Hands' statement I gave for plot manip?
It is just the question of who wrote the book; if it is him and that book presents the reality/universe and destroying it means destroying the universe, then it is indeed plot manipulation.I don't believe it's enough to assume it isn't metaphorical. Nothing about the storyline suggests to me that metafiction is in play here.
The book isn't a physical proxy for the universe as far as I know.It is just the question of who wrote the book; if it is him and that book presents the reality/universe and destroying it means destroying the universe, then it is indeed plot manipulation.
How tho? Explain furtherThe book isn't a physical proxy for the universe as far as I know.
All scans from Death Metal #7
So this is what is currently stated in The Darkest Knight's profile:
Let's see the statements for TDK>Hands and then I will explain why TDK didn't contradict himself.
Darkest Knight>Hands
There are four main statements for this.
Scan 1. This scan is not as blatant as the other scans but it does give the implication that TDK is superior to The Hands. This scan is also the most popular one used by fans to claim TDK>
Scan 2. This scan is very blatant. When Wonder Woman is about to defeat TDK by pushing him into the Death Sun, he explicitly says that he can kill The Hands.
Scan 3. This scan is by far the best evidence, as The Hands themselves directly confirm their inferiority to TDK. They quite literally mention how WW saved them from him. This makes sense, considering TDK was consistently portrayed in the storyline to be a threat to the entire Multiverse, all creation and existence.
Scan 4. This is the controversial scan, TDK explicitly states again that he could kill The Hands but due to some misinterpretation of the text, some have been led to believe he contradicted himself on that statement. I will address this here.
The Darkest Knight did not contradict himself
The controversy comes from the third speech bubble of the scan. I will state the entire quote here:
The keyword there is "will". What does will mean? According to google: expressing the future tense.
He's not saying that the Hands are presently stronger than him, he's saying that they will get stronger than him in the future if WW fights him. You may think I am playing with semantics, but I am not, because when you look at the larger context, it makes perfect sense.
Let's take a look at what's happening in the scan. TDK tells WW that she has only two choices.
1: In the first choice, she would fight him pointlessly until the Hands get more powerful than them and destroy the Universe.
2: In the second choice, she would not fight him but would rather give up and surrender. In this case, TDK would go kill The Hands and then give WW and her friends a paradise.
What he's saying basically, is not that The Hands are stronger than him. If that was the case, the second choice would make no sense. What he's saying is that, if WW fights him, they would both get weakened and this in turn would make the Hands superior to them. The Hands are, not in their base, superior, but they are, when TDK and WW are not at their prime. This is especially strengthened by the fact that TDK was powered up by Crisis Energy while WW was powered up by Anti-Crisis Energy. Neither of those energies are unlimited, if used too much, they can end. They are limited power sources that needs to be recharged. Granted, both TDK and WW did have strong supplies, but just a point to note.
Now assume my interpretation is the truth. There wouldn't be any contradiction(which there shouldn't be for nigh-omniscient characters anyway). TDK is merely saying that he's more powerful in his base form, but weaker in his lesser forms. The Hands themselves confirm this, making it pretty much legit.
Something irrelevant to the rest of my post
Not really relevant to the rest of my post, and not something I care about nearly as much, but I asked in the Q&A forum if Perpetua and TDK gets plot manip for ripping apart stories and the answer was a yes
The Hands can also destroy stories, so maybe Perpetua and co. should get Plot Manip?
Conclusion
The Darkest Knight doesn't just possibly scale to the Hands, he fully and completely scales to, and above them. He should hence lose his "possibly".
Also, while counterarguments are welcome(I am all for a good discussion), please remember to be civil. Insults take away the fun after all!
EDIT: The CRT was passed and applied but now we have to worry about In-Multiverse Perpetua's ratings. Here's why I think she should get a possibly/likely/solid 1-A too.
1: The power to create the Source Wall(1-A) wasn't enough to beat her when she was weakened(Justice League #33)
2: She could rival The Darkest Knight who is now no longer Low 1-C but a solid 1-A(Death Metal: Rise of the New God)
3: The Anti-Monitor when becoming the Ultra-Monitor said he was beyond anything he was before, which would include his True Form(1-A). A weakened Perpetua not only matched the Ultra-Monitor but he also admitted his power alone wasn't enough to beat her(still weakened)(Justice League #33)
Ye same. Let's go all in before the downgrades!I lean in favor of fully 1-A, tbh
Looks good in the blink of an eye, but you should correct her key name.EDIT: The CRT was passed and applied but now we have to worry about In-Multiverse Perpetua's ratings. Here's why I think she should get a possibly/likely/solid 1-A too.
1: The power to create the Source Wall(1-A) wasn't enough to beat her when she was weakened(Justice League #33)
2: She could rival The Darkest Knight who is now no longer Low 1-C but a solid 1-A(Death Metal: Rise of the New God)
3: The Anti-Monitor when becoming the Ultra-Monitor said he was beyond anything he was before, which would include his True Form(1-A). A weakened Perpetua not only matched the Ultra-Monitor but he also admitted his power alone wasn't enough to beat her(still weakened)(Justice League #33)