DC Comics: Minor Notability Criteria fix

[The_Impress]

Can we stay on topic and not go to comicsgater rants regarding something as basic as an appearance criteria

 

[Antvasima]

I didn't go into a comicsgater rant. I only stated some basic facts reported in the media. I did not elaborate regarding the quality of the current content.

However, it was still derailment, so sorry about that.

 

[Armorchompy]

Personally I'm neutral regarding n52 and Rebirth being split or not in regards to issue requirement but I think it would make things harder regarding characters that do appear in both- do you sum the requirements (needing X + Y appearances total) or is just hitting one of the two enough (having at least X in N52 or at least Y in rebirth)?

 

[Antvasima]

If characters are unchanged over the course of the Post-Flashpoint and Rebirth eras, I am not sure if we should use 10 or 15 appearances as a minimum. I am open for further input regarding this.

 

[Firestorm808]

For New 52 exclusive characters, maybe at least have major importance to an event/story arc.

 

[Confluctor]

There is no character that isnt unchanged when the transition from N52 to Rebirth happened. Maybe some magical characters who I read less stuff of. But virtually everyone changed with the transition sans new N52 characters themselves such as Bunker. Heck, the old reality got essentially wiped out since bunker remembered stuff vaguely (?) In Outlaws.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Never mind then. 10 appearances for each of those continuities is probably fine.

 

[Confluctor]

I just said to lower it to 7 for N52...

Also, what about keys for new 52? Legitimate keys, ofc not one time upgrades

 

[Antvasima]

I think that 7 issues seems very limited in order to find a coherent context. We do not really need to feature all obscure characters.

 

[The_Impress]

10 issues for New 52 + Rebirth is fine. DC has rogues gallery immigration be far lower anyways so they don't get as wacky inconsistencies as Marvel.

 

[Armorchompy]

What do we do for keys?

 

[Antvasima]

What do we do for keys?

Please explain the issue further.

 

[Armorchompy]

Well currently, these are our standards on the matter:

• "For keys in existing profiles, and equipment files, one only requires at least 15 appearances across comic books, (approximately 1 year's worth of appearances), as opposed to 20."

Obviously these numbers would need to be adapted to fit DC eras the same way current requirements are.

This is only partially related, but I also think that characters with less than x2 the appearance minimum limit or something like that should have the key requirement lifted, as it effectively currently makes it impossible to correctly index a character who changes halfway through their brief history if they don't have enough appearances.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am still very uneasy with ever demanding less than 10 appearances for featured characters, as it is usually very hard to discern any coherent patterns that way.

 

[Armorchompy]

No offense but this doesn't have anything to do with what I'm saying, it's about keys (and equipment files I suppose)

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I thought that you were referring to the amount of necessary appearances for each statistics key.

 

[Armorchompy]

Okay. I thought that you were referring to the amount of necessary appearances for each statistics key.

Ah, well yes, that is the case, but if a key is warranted usually there will be a notable shift in power. I think effectively not allowing minor characters to have keys can also lead to other users making mistakes and scaling to a weaker version of the character who does not have such feats

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am not sure how we should solve that potential problem without sacrificing considerable reliability standards for other pages, but am obviously open for suggestions.

 

[Armorchompy]

Well, I am not sure how we should solve that potential problem without sacrificing considerable reliability standards for other pages, but am obviously open for suggestions.

I think the key restriction should only be lifted for small pages in my opinion, for bigger pages short-lived keys won't be significant but for a small one it might be like, half the character's appearances

 

[Confluctor]

I agree ^

 

[The_Impress]

I think the key restriction should only be lifted for small pages in my opinion, for bigger pages short-lived keys won't be significant but for a small one it might be like, half the character's appearances

Nah I disagree with that.

I think just assume 75% the bare minimum appearance is enough for keys

 

[Armorchompy]

I think just assume 75% the bare minimum appearance is enough for keys

But what about characters that get a different key halfway through? I have a 24 issue character who goes from 9-B to 4-B about halfway through their story, and even has a little bit of scaling to the wider verse as a 9-B. Surely you realize that if she didn't have two keys, people unfamiliar with her would consider scaling to her earlier key to be a 4-B feat?

 

[Confluctor]

Gatekeeping bad power ups for popular characters is putting the lesser known characters in a disadvantageous state.

Even worse, because for large characters, the limitations can be circumvented because of event involvement or appearance of sort in another media.

 

[Armorchompy]

Gatekeeping bad power ups for popular characters is putting the lesser known characters in a disadvantageous state.

Even worse, because for large characters, the limitations can be circumvented because of event involvement or appearance of sort in another media.

I mean I think not letting every 10-issue change be a key in bigger profiles is fine, it's not like anyone with any Marvel knowledge is gonna look at Angel Punisher and not realize something fishy's going on. But at the same time I don't think anyone's gonna look at a 25-appearance marty and think... anything really.

 

[Confluctor]

Oh definitely. We need to be cautious for them lot, nobody wants 15 different keys for Superman - unless it's eras, then that's different.

What I think we need to do is, judge keys case by case for smaller characters. If a key is important for the character and their lore - i.e. not a temporary power up - it should preferably be kept. We shouldn't be gatekeeping a hobby to extreme levels.

 

[The_Impress]

But what about characters that get a different key halfway through? I have a 24 issue character who goes from 9-B to 4-B about halfway through their story

That's 12 issues which is fine for keying.

, and even has a little bit of scaling to the wider verse as a 9-B

We also allow characters to be given keys if they're relevant for greater verse indexing

Surely you realize that if she didn't have two keys, people unfamiliar with her would consider scaling to her earlier key to be a 4-B feat?

Also like, you can just put a note on her file to explain the sitch.

 

[Armorchompy]

That's 12 issues which is fine for keying.

Current standard is 15, and that's assuming the split is perfectly even, she changes like, 15 in or something like that, which leaves the second key with 9.

Also like, you can just put a note on her file to explain the sitch.

That just seems like a stupid workaround for something that has a much simpler solution that also allows for more thorough indexing.

 

[Antvasima]

Impress and Armorchompy both made some good points above.

Which character are you referring to specifically, Armorchompy? I suppose that we could possibly add a brief rule text mention about that certain characters can have the minimum requirements for important keys lessened to 8 appearances, if the statistics are self-evident, and there has been a preceding accepted discussion in our forum.

 

[Armorchompy]

This one. I made the page when I wasn't aware of the key rule, but I genuinely think it's better off this way, given it could be used to argue 4-B for a lot of street tiers otherwise. Although I have to correct myself, she's only 20 appearances.

I really don't think making a thread just to get keys on a very minor profile is necessary tbh, it's a lot of bureaucracy for a very unimportant profile and it's not like it's something anyone will have any interest in exploiting.

8 issues is also a pretty random number not to mention it'd only apply to Marvel. Again what is really the issue with allowing keys for small files?

 

[Antvasima]

The problem is that many Marvel and DC Comics characters are completely inconsistent in terms of power levels, especially in relation to each other. Ones with very few appearances can easily be scaled to other more prominent characters at peaks immensely far beyond how they were portrayed in the stories where they respectively interacted.

 

[Armorchompy]

The problem is that many Marvel and DC Comics characters are completely inconsistent in terms of power levels, especially in relation to each other. Ones with very few appearances can easily be scaled to other more prominent characters at peaks immensely far beyond how they were portrayed in the stories where they respectively interacted.

I'm not sure how not allowing them to have keys alleviates this though. Worst case scenario, it makes it worse as it becomes much easier to misconstrue feats, and causes others to potentially misunderstand how to scale to that character. Even if a "key" has no notable feats it should still be indexed with a rating that acknowledges this to prevent people from accidentally using it for scaling. But the truth is that almost all keys worth making are going to have some form of scaling, even if it's just "stronger than the previous key"

 

[Antvasima]

We also need a reasonable lower limit to avoid that our members start to list every irrelevant temporary power-up in existence.

 

[Confluctor]

You know, it's extremely easy to notice a temporary power up and get rid of it. That's basically a non-issue.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that 10 appearances is a quite limited qualifier in order to find some measure of consistency for statistics in the first place. Going even lower than that seems unreliable.

Well, we do not absolutely have to feature non-prominent characters from that era, if we cannot find a sufficiently coherent and consistent basis for the statistics.

If characters are unchanged over the course of the Post-Flashpoint and Rebirth eras, I am not sure if we should use 10 or 15 appearances as a minimum. I am open for further input regarding this.

Okay. Never mind then. 10 appearances for each of those continuities is probably fine.

I think that 7 issues seems very limited in order to find a coherent context. We do not really need to feature all obscure characters.

Well, I am still very uneasy with ever demanding less than 10 appearances for featured characters, as it is usually very hard to discern any coherent patterns that way.

Ah, well yes, that is the case, but if a key is warranted usually there will be a notable shift in power. I think effectively not allowing minor characters to have keys can also lead to other users making mistakes and scaling to a weaker version of the character who does not have such feats

Well, I am not sure how we should solve that potential problem without sacrificing considerable reliability standards for other pages, but am obviously open for suggestions.

Impress and Armorchompy both made some good points above.

Which character are you referring to specifically, Armorchompy? I suppose that we could possibly add a brief rule text mention about that certain characters can have the minimum requirements for important keys lessened to 8 appearances, if the statistics are self-evident, and there has been a preceding accepted discussion in our forum.

The problem is that many Marvel and DC Comics characters are completely inconsistent in terms of power levels, especially in relation to each other. Ones with very few appearances can easily be scaled to other more prominent characters at peaks immensely far beyond how they were portrayed in the stories where they respectively interacted.

We also need a reasonable lower limit to avoid that our members start to list every irrelevant temporary power-up in existence.

@Qawsedf234 @The_Impress @Firestorm808

Do you have any good suggestions for solutions here?

 

[Antvasima]

You know, it's extremely easy to notice a temporary power up and get rid of it. That's basically a non-issue.

Not without safeguards in place to sift them away, no. I would still much rather make exceptions for keys that are necessary to avoid scaling confusion than mess up all of our safeguard standards in general because of a single character that you want to change the page structure of. It seems rather irresponsible to argue otherwise.

 

[Confluctor]

Eh, seems to me it's irresponsible to put smaller characters at even more disadvantage because of popular characters and their power ups.

And again, if a scaling confusing comes up, we will know about it and fix it. Heck, whenever a new capeshit page pops up, we look through it and see if everything is fine with it. I would rather deal with those things manually than have weird ass numbers put in place.

You know what this will fix this? Just write on the verse page to not make keys for temporary power ups.

Also, a number of power ups you call temporary... They still meet the criteria in one way or another. Either through sheer number or due to event appearance. So, you know, it's not helping against those popular characters

 

[Antvasima]

I am uneasy with it, as I do not want to help loosen our reliability safeguards too much, but if you and other knowledgeable members here can figure out some specific solution together, I am obviously willing to consider it.

 

[Firestorm808]

I would say the standard of 7/10 is fine, and some exceptions could be made depending on the context of the character.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the evaluation. Which parts do the 7 and the 10 refer to respectively?

 

[Firestorm808]

Minimum appearances for New 52.