DC Comics herald-level characters upgrade discussion - Part 2

[KLOL506]

Look, Emirp's list was almost completely debunked previously, and contained an extremely limited amount of explicit feats that were remotely reliable and standing on their own without scaling from fighting situations, and we have a long list of much more reliable and explicit feats in the tier 5 to tier 4 range, both the ones that Deagonx, Elizio33, and I assembled previously, and the ones that Dread will try to organise currently.

All of which Emirp has since responded to and debunked. Surely you realize that your word, Deagonx's and Elizio's are not universal and absolute, yes? Nothing in battleboarding is absolute.

Also, yes, DC Comics is not quite as bad as Marvel Comics when it comes to insanely inconsistent powerlevel discrepancies during fighting matchups, but I will continue to have an extremely strong impression that it exists, and you will have to try to deal with it without taking out unrelated frustrations out on me.

And you will have to deal with the fact that your word is not absolute law like it came from the most divine of beings. You are but one voice in this discussion amongst countless others. Your impression isn't the end-all, be-all of this.

Finally, you need to calm down and use a far less hostile and subversive tone and attitude. The ongoing relentless quick knee-jerk antagonism from you two and a few other members is turning very tiresome to deal with, and is not acceptable from staff members who are supposed to try to be collaborative with each other, especially as I am usually trying very hard to be very nice, well-intended, and reasonable for a head of this type of community, despite my mental disabilities.

IDK fam, you seem to be the one starting out such conflicts to start with to the point where other staff are visibly getting pissed off and making such reactions.

 

[LordTracer]

and we have a long list of much more reliable and explicit feats in the tier 5 to tier 4 range, both the ones that Deagonx, Elizio33, and I assembled previously, and the ones that Dread will try to organise currently.

I seem to recall Deagon’s list being completely unsourced, not entirely Post-Crisis, from eras were the characters were much weaker and/or was mostly debunked in this thread, so…

 

[KLOL506]

The logic of Antvasima is an enigma, really.

Staff-only thread, so...

 

[Antvasima]

My apologies for not responding sooner. My laptop ran out of power, so I had to wait for it to recharge, and then start from the beginning.

Anyway, I was not trying to single out any members here. I was just trying to express my exasperation with how extremely illogical I find this reasoning as an extremely longtime DC Comics reader, but I apologise if I caused offence by a poor choice of words.

However, I am still the person who organised the growth of this community almost from scratch, and I have also made a far greater effort over the years to be helpful and considerate to our members than anybody else in this community, even though I have been much busier IRL than previously during the past year, so I do not appreciate people seemingly continuously taking out unrelated frustrations for much more serious issues on me by acting out in subversive and very disrespectful manners. We are supposed to act as a friendly, reasonable, and collaborative team here. You cannot continuously knee-jerk lash out against the senior head of this community due to the slightest perceived provocation or lack of absolute perfection.

Also, I have very extensive experiences with Marvel Comics and DC Comics matchups being completely all over the place in terms of incompatible power levels. I am not going to just have my memories of reading many thousands of these stories completely wiped just because others might find it inconvenient.

 

[Armorchompy]

However, I am still the person who organised the growth of this community almost from scratch, and I have also made a far greater effort over the years to be helpful and considerate to our members than anybody else in this community, even though I have been much busier IRL than previously during the past year, so I do not appreciate people seemingly continuously taking out unrelated frustrations for much more serious issues on me by acting out in subversive and very disrespectful manners. We are supposed to act as a friendly, reasonable, and collaborative team here. You cannot continuously knee-jerk lash out against the senior head of this community due to the slightest perceived provocation or lack of absolute perfection.

I don't care. Don't make unwarranted accusations and we're good.

Also, I have very extensive experiences with Marvel Comics and DC Comics matchups being completely all over the place in terms of incompatible power levels. I am not going to just have my memories of reading many thousands of these stories completely wiped just because others might find it inconvenient.

Nobody's asking you to. But you can't ask us to agree with your viewpoint either when we clearly don't.

 

[Antvasima]

If I do not make a specific mention of your or other people's usernames I do not intend to make any "unfounded accusations". I am just intending to state my general perception of the situation.

 

[KLOL506]

My apologies for not responding sooner. My laptop ran out of power, so I had to wait for it to recharge, and then start from the beginning.

Anyway, I was not trying to single out any members here. I was just trying to express my exasperation with how extremely illogical I find this reasoning as an extremely longtime DC Comics reader, but I apologise if I caused offence by a poor choice of words.

Then you should also realize how your arguments against this thread have been just as illogical and just as exasperating for us to deal with time and time again which has led to significant derailments which lead to absolutely nowhere good.

However, I am still the person who organised the growth of this community almost from scratch, and I have also made a far greater effort over the years to be helpful and considerate to our members than anybody else in this community, even though I have been much busier IRL than previously during the past year, so I do not appreciate people seemingly continuously taking out unrelated frustrations for much more serious issues on me by acting out in subversive and very disrespectful manners. We are supposed to act as a friendly, reasonable, and collaborative team here. You cannot continuously knee-jerk lash out against the senior head of this community due to the slightest perceived provocation or lack of absolute perfection.

Ant, we talked about this again and again in personal DMs, remember? FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, NOBODY IS TRYING TO DOWNPLAY YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS, BUT PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, DO NOT USE THIS AS A CRUTCH FOR YOUR BIAS AGAINST TOPICS LIKE THIS JUST BECAUSE THEY DO NOT SATISFY YOUR PERSONAL VIEW OF HOW POWERFUL FICTIONAL CHARACTERS SHOULD BE.

Also, I have very extensive experiences with Marvel Comics and DC Comics matchups being completely all over the place in terms of incompatible power levels.

THEN USE THEM. Cite sources, give us the exact specific issues where these inconsistencies take place, like Emirp and the rest of the gang have been doing, just don't keep repeating these words and then not act on them.

I am not going to just have my memories of reading many thousands of these stories completely wiped just because others might find it inconvenient.

Terribly disappointing to hear something like this coming from you Ant. Those same people that you think find it inconvenient, go through hell and back to then cite their sources to the most minute detail whenever possible, at this point you're just making yourself look bad by not at least trying to be as contributive as you claim to have been in the past.

 

[Antvasima]

I have blocked my access to comic book reading sites, since I have very limited time available nowadays, which is much more constructively used elsewhere, and the extreme contents of western superhero comic book stories literally used to make me mentally ill, so I would much rather gradually learn to let go of them, but it doesn't even take extensive superhero comic book knowledge to notice that Captain America may not usually be portrayed as capable of punching out Galactus, but he can almost consistently fight Spider-Man, who can almost consistently fight The Thing, who can almost consistently fight The Hulk, who can almost consistently fight Thor, who can almost consistently fight skyfathers, who can almost consistently fight Galactus, who can almost consistently fight Celestials, and sometimes higher entities such as Chaos and Order and the In-Betweener, who have killed the Living Tribunal, who endured several attacks from three Beyonders before he was killed, who managed to gradually destroy multiversal/"omniversal" Eternity, and so onwards, just to use one of many examples, and the matchup discrepancies sometimes use much fewer steps than the above.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Antvasima Ant if you're going to make excuses on why you don't bother reading comic books these days, then stop discussing in these threads. Like holy shit no one here is forcing you to participate in these threads, you're just going out of your way to bring up random extreme scenarios that is not remotely accepted on the site, especially for Marvel of all things which has no relevance in this thread. This is a thread about DC comics, not Marvel, so take this somewhere else.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the verses are shared settings with almost the same writers that almost function the same way, and you should know that the examples that I use are correct if you have been a longtime reader of them.

Also, there is still no good reason for you all to repeatedly overreact by becoming so extremely agitated towards me. I think that what I have said has been fairly harmless here.

 

[Antvasima]

@Elizio33 @Deagonx

Are you willing to take over here please?

 

[Theglassman12]

@Antvasima Ok, and has any of those been accepted on the pages or are you just trying to bring up random examples no one in their right mind uses? Because last time I checked we don't have Captain America scaled to Galactus.

How about stop with the accusations that we have some ulterior motives when we're doing our job of evaluating these feats and maybe we won't act very agitated towards you. This happens a lot when you're in any comic book discussion and it gets very infuriating when you do this to us dozens of times.

 

[KLOL506]

Well, the verses are shared settings with almost the same writers that almost function the same way, and you should know that the examples that I use are correct if you have been a longtime reader of them.

Define "longtime reader", and even then, you'd have to prove it to them as well.

Also, there is still no good reason for you all to repeatedly overreact by becoming so extremely agitated towards me. I think that what I have said has been fairly harmless here.

No disrespect, Ant, but that's just straight up horseshit.

There, I said it. It's ******* horseshit. Every single one of your comments so far on this topic has been nothing but derailment of the highest order bordering on extreme personal bias and bringing in other verses that contribute ****-all to the current discussion at hand, and I would rather you cease this at once. If you can't afford to back up your claims, just don't engage in these threads, period.

I have tried tolerating this amount of blatant stonewalling for as long as I could've, but you've finally gone and done it. I'm sorry, but this has to be said. You need to stop doing this. For your own sake, and ours. Stop antagonizing your own comrades like this and stop harboring further hatred against yourself in this manner.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@KLOL506

I understand your sentiment, I truly do, but knock it off now. You keep derailing the thread by choosing to focus on that.

 

[KLOL506]

As you wish.

@Emirp sumitpo Any ETA on your response?

 

[KLOL506]

Anyway, I will try and take a look at the feats myself if I have the time. Won't be able to give any Bible-level justifications like the other peeps, but Planck and Glass have taught me enough of the trade to at least try and attempt to comprehend the feats.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I've been reading a lot of DC these past months and avoided debating higher Tiers but now I'm interested. I'll read the thread and give my opinion as soon as I arrive at home.

 

[KLOL506]

• Infinite-Man's power can sculpt space-time, could destroy the Universe, including the timestream (Legionnaires Vol. 1 #18, September 1994)

Literally no grounds to argue against this. This is as blatant as it gets. I agree 100% on this.

• Orion's Astro-Force is considered capable of stopping what can annihilate the cosmos (Jack Kirby's Fourth World Vol. 1 #4, June 1997)

Sounds more like a Tier 3 feat at first glance. But still, not bad.

• Superman briefly fights Time Trapper Superman-Prime. (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds Vol. 1 #4, June 2009)

Makes sense, I checked the Superboy side of things for more context. Looks good.

• Superman trades blows with Time Trapper Superman-Prime, but is overpowered. (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds #5, September 2009)

Then that should be grounds for downscaling below baseline akin to an "At most" rating methinks. At least, for this specific feat at hand.

• Ion could remake the Universe (Green Lantern Vol. 3 #145, February 2002)

Looks okay.

• Mr Terrific, who was certain Wally had Infinite and Incalculable power, isn't certain he's more powerful than Superman, implying he considers Superman to also have Infinite Power (The Flash (Rebirth) #775, October 2021)

Seems to be pretty blatant, plus it fits with the whole "fluctuating power" shenanigans of the Speed Force. I agree.

• Superman states he could make the entire Phantom Zone cease to exist if he really put his head to it. (Superman Vol 5 #5 January 2019) and Superman shakes the Phantom Zone with one punch(Superman (2018) (Rebirth) #6, February 2019)
  • The Phantom Zone is an anti-Universe (Action Comics Vol. 2 #11, September 2012)
  • The Phantom Zone has been called Infinite (JLA Vol. 1 #36, December, 1999)

Yeah, this seems to be legit in my eyes. Feat certainly emphasizes the might of his punch here with it causing earthquakes in the distance.

• Superman punches out Barbatos (Dark Nights: Death Metal Trinity Crisis, November 2020)

Honestly don't know what to make of this. The comedic nature of this knock-out kinda puts me in confusion. Neutral for now unless someone can give a bit more context.

• Wonder Woman withstands and deflects a fireball with infinite power. (Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #21, October 1988)

Seems good enough, also seems to qualify for the whole "Infinite power must be used in a singular attack instead of over-time accumulation" conditions we have now.

• Superman could have stopped Hank Hall Monarch. (Adventures of Superman Annual #3, October 1991)

Did he stop an unrestricted Hank Hall Monarch?

• Child Brainiac gained the power of an infinite space Tesseract and Superman and Ultraman are capable of taking attacks from him. (Adventures of Superman Vol. 1 #605, August 2002)

Unsure about this for Firestorm's reasons. Will remain neutral if some more clarification can be given. It's a good LS feat tho.

• Superman's clash with his Golden Age counterpart shattered the boundaries of Space-Time and changed timelines (Superman Vol. 2 #226, April 2006, Action Comics Vol. 1 #836, April 2006, Adventures of Superman Vol. 1 #649, April 2006)

Ah yes. This. The infamous "Shattered the boundaries of space and time" feat.

Now that there is more context to this, I agree with it. Seems similar to Gogeta vs Broly, or Infinity Ultron vs The Watcher.

• Captain Atom is sent flying by someone he compares to an out of control Superman, and believes he'd need all his power to defeat her(Captain Atom: Armageddon Vol. 1 #7, June 2006)

Looks fine.

• Superboy is able to damage Superboy-Prime (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds Vol. 1 #4, June 2009)

Same one where Time Trapper gets socked, right? Yeah, this is fine. Superboy seems super pissed about his death and resurrection with Superboy-Prime being involved in here and all.

• Superman tanks a blast from Mordru and harms him. (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds Vol. 1 #4, June 2009)

Looks okay at a glance.

• The GLC Central Battery can become as large as and destroy the entire Universe(Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #224, May 1988)
  • Context: The yellow impurity was seizing control of the battery, so now it’s reclaiming all the green energy, pulling it back into itself in order to keep that impurity contained. Soon, the Central Power Battery will siphon all of the green energy back into itself. It will go on to overload, causing a massive power buildup. This will, in turn, trigger an explosion, transforming OA itself into an immense black hole, large enough to draw the entire universe into it.

Looks good.

• Hal escapes (Crispus Allen) Black Lantern Spectre's grasp and knocks out Black Lantern Crispus Allen’s jaw (Green Lantern Vol 4 #50 March 2010)

Looks great.

• Hal kills Krona with a blast through the chest (Green Lantern Vol 4 #67 August 2011)
  • Krona takes Atrocitus' Napalm breath and bite to his neck. (Green Lantern Vol 4 #62 March 2011)
  • Atrocitus peak scales to the Butcher (Green Lantern Vol 4 #61 February 2011)
    • Butcher James Kim is able to severely damage CA Spectre
    • Atrocitus’s spear construct pierces Butcher James Kim
    • Atrocitus was confident to chain the Butcher

Need scans for this.

• Superman one-shot Auteur.io(Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #21, October 2021)
  • Auteur.io created the Archive of Worlds, an archive of realities (Batman/Superman Vol. #19, August 2021),
  • and could destroy them if he didn't like them(Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #17, June 2021)

Not 100% sure on this, can someone give more context as to what these "realities" are? Sorry if the question sounds dumb.

 

[KLOL506]

I checked the agrees and disagrees and it seems there were some more feats in prior threads accepted by staff that aren't included in OP.

@Emirp sumitpo Would you be able to list them kindly?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Not 100% sure on this, can someone give more context as to what these "realities" are? Sorry if the question sounds dumb.

Film Reels that contain universes that Io was attempting to fuse with other stuff.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I’m gonna get flack for asking this but can someone summarize for me?
Like personally I buy multi+ heralds but I wanna know what the peeps are using for similar tiers here.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

"Portrayal" is pretty subjective, they don't really disprove anything above them. In fact most are fairly casual. The few that qualify as actual antifeats can be added on to the list but I don't think most of them really mean anything.

I don't think Antvasima simply meant "Potrayal" as a simplistic statement. More so that it is a "Consistently portrayed as characters who need to force all their might just to perform those Tier 5 to Tier 4 feats." But perhaps someone like Deagon has more to add.

 

[Antvasima]

I don't think Antvasima simply meant "Portrayal" as a simplistic statement. More so that it is a "Consistently portrayed as characters who need to force all their might just to perform those Tier 5 to Tier 4 feats." But perhaps someone like Deagon has more to add.

That is correct, yes, and I also find those feats to be far less vague, and far more explicitly blatant and self-evident than the alternatives, and think that ranking the characters that performed them literally infinitely higher than would be far too inconsistent.

Anyway, @ImmortalDread , I would greatly appreciate if you are able and willing to compile all such feats that we have available here, both from Deagonx's list that I posted in the beginning of this thread and the ones from the blogs that I showed you earlier, to a single blog post of your own in a more organised manner. Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Anyway, @ImmortalDread , I would greatly appreciate if you are able and willing to compile all such feats that we have available here, both from Deagonx's list that I posted in the beginning of this thread and the ones from the blogs that I showed you earlier, to a single blog post of your own in a more organised manner. Thanks in advance for any help.

Oh, thank you for giving me the green light, I paused since y'all were arguing if we should still do it or not. Which list from @Deagonx are you trying to refer?

 

[Antvasima]

Here they are:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-herald-level-characters-upgrade-discussion-part-2.152269/post-5657019

 

[Armorchompy]

Just... don't expect it to be the thing that turns the thread around. In all likelyhood we're all just going to collectively sigh and kinda ignore it, given that it doesn't really mean that much.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Will all my efforts ultimately be in vain and remain unused? It would be greatly appreciated if someone acknowledged and valued my work. Otherwise, it feels like a waste of time and unfair to me.

While I understand that I'm not a staff member, I still desire some recognition for my contributions and my art of work.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Will all my efforts ultimately be in vain and remain unused? It would be greatly appreciated if someone acknowledged and valued my work. Otherwise, it feels like a waste of time and unfair to me.

While I understand that I'm not a staff member, I still desire some recognition for my contributions and my art of work.

I mean I'll probably use it once I get to determining who scales to what but that's another thread. Thanks for your effort nonetheless.

 

[KLOL506]

Film Reels that contain universes that Io was attempting to fuse with other stuff.

Then I guess that seems fine.

 

[Antvasima]

Will all my efforts ultimately be in vain and remain unused? It would be greatly appreciated if someone acknowledged and valued my work. Otherwise, it feels like a waste of time and unfair to me.

While I understand that I'm not a staff member, I still desire some recognition for my contributions and my art of work.

Well, I would greatly appreciate the help as a very important counterpoint to the attempts to give the heralds infinitely higher statistics than I think that they have reliably displayed.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This is a staff only thread, regular users do not have permission to post unless staff gives them permission. Some may ask, but coming here just to say "Surprised this is still going on" isn't a contribution.

 

[Antvasima]

Of course, though I wasn't arguing that it was the FULL power of Imperiex, only that it was AMPED by Imperiex and using as much energy as possible.

So, as I showed before, Brainiac 13 had the full power of Imperiex and explictly was using it to amp himself/Warworld as Warworld was his body at that point. Relevant quotes:


Brainiac 13, renegade electronic consciousness from the future, has through stealth and subterfuge quite literally stolen the essence of Imperiex and made it his own.

"This planet is my body, the Imperiex Energy is my blood. You cannot hurt me."

"Maxima's attack on Warworld was quickly disintegrating in the face of her own arrogance and Brainiac's overwhelming, Imperiex-stoked Firepower."

"While Steel's inexperience did not allow him to fully tap into the Entropy Aegis' potential, he could still harness enough of the Imperiex Essence to counter the same force as deployed by Brainiac."

"The force that was Imperiex can not be nullified. It is eternal and has been absorbed by me."

"With the power of Imperiex growing within me, I will make the music that controls the spheres."

All this shows he's not just got the power of Imperiex, but is actively channeling it through Warworld to power up everything about it. Especially see it in the quote "Maxima's attack on Warworld was quickly disintegrating in the face of her own arrogance and Brainiac's overwhelming, Imperiex-stoked Firepower." as it shows B13 channeling Imperiex's power into his auto defenses, while still maintaining control of the tendrils. This shows even without his full focus, he's amping all of Warworld.

Then, when Superman moves Warworld, we have Brainiac 13 explictly say "Full Thruster Countermeasures! How is he moving my planet!?" And when he says that, we see that the one of the tendrils is gone when even a page before, his tendrils were actively a threat. (The Tendrils, of course, being part of the Imperiex power). The other is shown to be retreating from Earth and back to Warworld as well in the following pages. We also see literally the page before he switched to "full thruster countermeasures" he was amping his other bodies with Imperiex energy to try to stop Superman (we can see them glowing purple with Imperiex energy only for them to disappear when he activated the countermeasures, implying he's focusing the energy on the engines)

Then, Brainiac is reduced to begging Superman to stop, powerless to stop him while Imperiex begs Superman to free him. The implication is Brainiac was using as much power as possible but couldn't stop Superman.

While it's possible that he's not using the full power of Imperiex for the engines, I feel that wouldn't really make sense given what we're shown and told. At minimum, and my main argument, Brainiac 13 was using as much of the Imperiex energy as he could to stop Superman.

Hmm. These actually seem like sensible arguments. Imperiex was tier 3-A, correct? Should we change Post-Crisis Superman's final key to "High 4-C normally, 3-A by absorbing extreme amounts of solar energy" then?

@Deagonx @Elizio33 @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura

What do you think?

Imperiex under Brainiac 13 was 3-A since his explosion went from Multi-Galactic in scale to second Big Bang.

Though no one other than Superman would scale to this really considering he had so much energy pumped into him that his skin disintegrated for a bit.

Yes, but it seems much more reliable than the other suggested upgrade feats for him.

Hello.

Some interesting information was presented in another thread. I find this much more explicit and reliable than the other examples here.

 

[Antvasima]

So do any of you thInk that the suggestion in my last post above seems like a good idea to apply?

 

[KLOL506]

@Emirp sumitpo @Armorchompy

 

[KLOL506]

@Emirp sumitpo @Armorchompy

Bump.

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean this is just more "this is more reliable than the tiers being proposed right now" nonsense, you're free to have that opinion but you're in the minority still, you can't expect other people to accept that without making any actual arguments against the ones that are being pushed for by OP.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it is still a massive upgrade, and a much more explicit feat, so I thought that we could use it as a compromise solution.

 

[Armorchompy]

it's an upgrade for only one character when amped, that's not a very favorable compromise, especially when the debate hasn't really been going in your favor

 

[Antvasima]

We do have massive lists of high exertion counter-feats available that support my interpretation, and your list is far less explicit/self-evident and has been heavily contested.

Also, Superman can technically access that amplification whenever he wants to.

 

[LordTracer]

We do have massive lists of high exertion counter-feats available that support my interpretation

Most of which were debunked earlier in this thread, as I’ve mentioned before, not to mention the fact that mosf, if not all of them were unsourced, performed while weakened or in weaker forms, and/or not in continuity.