DC Comics: Doom Patrol CRT

[Metalija]

Isn't the entire Overvoid just a piece of paper inside of retcon corp, or some other insane realm? In one comic Doom patrol accidently shatter the Overvoid with their van and fall into that world. Thats a massive 1-A feat right there.

 

[Amakasu]

Isn't the entire Overvoid just a piece of paper inside of retcon corp, or some other insane realm? In one comic Doom patrol accidently shatter the Overvoid with their van and fall into that world. Thats a massive 1-A feat right there.

High 1A actually if you use the current tiers

 

[RanaProGamer]

Your scans are hard to read

It would had been better if you had provided actual scans rather than screenshots (hard to read). For now I'm neutral. I'll prolly read doom patrol after finishing some things

Next time, try to actually read comics instead of getting information from videos

All the scans have been updated. Took me a whole day but if it makes things easier, it had to be done.

 

[Xearsay]

I agree with the upgrades.

 

[Antvasima]

@Zensum @C2_of_Omegon @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Newendigo @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33

What do you think that we should do here?

 

[Sir_sun_man]

Isn't the entire Overvoid just a piece of paper inside of retcon corp, or some other insane realm? In one comic Doom patrol accidently shatter the Overvoid with their van and fall into that world. Thats a massive 1-A feat right there.

they didn't shatter the whole of overvoid just some small part of it
still 1-A though
but now Flex Mentallo reseting all of reality with that superflex of his is boredeline high 1-A, as he reset everything after the retcon corp erased the shabang

 

[RanaProGamer]

Bump

 

[RanaProGamer]

Bump

 

[RanaProGamer]

Btw, what would be the ratings for Base Robotman?

 

[Antvasima]

@Zensum @C2_of_Omegon @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Newendigo @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33

I would appreciate input from you here.

 

[Deagonx]

@Deagonx @Elizio33

I would appreciate input from you here.

I think much of this is a stretched interpretation of things. I'll address why I think so line by line.

Her creations have been described as being archetypal by Niles (who by the way is the best source for the Doom Patrol's abilities) and have their origin in the Dreaming. Which is the realm of The Dream Of The Endless.

So, to be clear, they aren't called "archetypal" they are called archetypes. This doesn't necessarily mean that they're conceptual. An archetype can mean many things, in psychology it's an inherited idea or mode of thought, it can also mean a perfect example, i.e. Superman could be called the archetype of a Superhero.

I believe the simplest and most straightforward interpretation of this phrase in context is that the beings she creates represent psychological archetypes made manifest. If Candle Maker was the archetype of fear, that would just mean fear is what he represents, not that he's a conceptual being. Likewise, none of this says they have their origin in the Dreaming. Unconscious =/= Dreaming. You only dream during certain periods of sleep.

Dorothy's mind can create doors to the astral, where a being known as Candle Maker tried to make itself real but was trapped due to the strength of Dorothy's mind.
Be aware that Candle Maker is the personification of the fears of The Collective Unconcious made manifest.

This isn't really a scan, it just links to an entire comic book issue, but this book was written before the Collective Unconscious even existed in DC so I find this interpretation suspect.

It is the death of all things and the real world is non-existent in comparison to itself.

How villains describe themselves should be taken with a bucket of salt, and what is this "non-existent in comparison to itself?" How can he interact with beings who don't exist to him?

Even Death itself fears the Candle Maker

Again, villains self-describing shouldn't be taken as true without further scrutiny. Also, your scans don't work very well. Next time link to actual pictures, not comic book piracy sites.

beyond God and all of His creation.

Where is this indicated?

I'm going to stop there. Trying to find the scans in the links as provided is tedious.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

 

[RanaProGamer]

I think much of this is a stretched interpretation of things. I'll address why I think so line by line.


So, to be clear, they aren't called "archetypal" they are called archetypes. This doesn't necessarily mean that they're conceptual. An archetype can mean many things, in psychology it's an inherited idea or mode of thought, it can also mean a perfect example, i.e. Superman could be called the archetype of a Superhero.

Alright, makes sense

I believe the simplest and most straightforward interpretation of this phrase in context is that the beings she creates represent psychological archetypes made manifest. If Candle Maker was the archetype of fear, that would just mean fear is what he represents, not that he's a conceptual being. Likewise, none of this says they have their origin in the Dreaming. Unconscious =/= Dreaming. You only dream during certain periods of sleep.

Also understandable.

This isn't really a scan, it just links to an entire comic book issue, but this book was written before the Collective Unconscious even existed in DC so I find this interpretation suspect.

Are you viewing these links on your phone by any chance? Cuz on PC, it should directly take you to the page that has the scan.

How villains describe themselves should be taken with a bucket of salt, and what is this "non-existent in comparison to itself?" How can he interact with beings who don't exist to him?

I think you answered your own question. Villains describing themselves shouldn’t be taken too seriously.

Again, villains self-describing shouldn't be taken as true without further scrutiny. Also, your scans don't work very well. Next time link to actual pictures, not comic book piracy sites.

I did link pictures before, the issue that everyone brought up was that the pics were unclear, so I had to link the pages for the scans.

Where is this indicated?

It says, “The Timeless time breathed before anything you know or understand. Before history, evolution and even Creation”. This is referring to the World before creation, where there was no shape at all. And the World created the Teiresias.

I'm going to stop there. Trying to find the scans in the links as provided is tedious.

Like I said, I did post pictures before, it didn’t turn out well.

 

[Deagonx]

Cuz on PC, it should directly take you to the page that has the scan.

I am on PC, but it is not doing this. Nonetheless it's a bad way to link scans.

Villains describing themselves shouldn’t be taken too seriously.

Then why are you using them for a CRT?

“The Timeless time breathed before anything you know or understand. Before history, evolution and even Creation”. This is referring to the World before creation, where there was no shape at all. And the World created the Teiresias.

It's questionable whether or not this would apply to the Presence, especially 35 years later when the Cosmology has expanded so much.

 

[Antvasima]

It's questionable whether or not this would apply to the Presence, especially 35 years later when the Cosmology has expanded so much.

I agree about this.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

You know I gotta say I've always been skeptical about statements where a character is stated to be above The Presence. This may seem nitpicky but the reason why I say that usually A) they don't have feats on the same caliber as The Presence or B) they'd have to prove that this character exists beyond the jurisdiction of The Presence, as the 2000 Lucifer run had established quite a few times that everything that occurs is due to the will of The Presence and Destiny's book IIRC was stated by Lucifer to being the script of his father's plan for creation.
Now maybe these creatures you mentioned in the OP are indeed above The Presence if there's context to it, but I see these statements from all sorts of characters and I for one don't know if it's genuine or not

 

[Garchomp777]

You know I gotta say I've always been skeptical about statements where a character is stated to be above The Presence. This may seem nitpicky but the reason why I say that usually A) they don't have feats on the same caliber as The Presence or B) they'd have to prove that this character exists beyond the jurisdiction of The Presence, as the 2000 Lucifer run had established quite a few times that everything that occurs is due to the will of The Presence and Destiny's book IIRC was stated by Lucifer to being the script of his father's plan for creation.
Now maybe these creatures you mentioned in the OP are indeed above The Presence if there's context to it, but I see these statements from all sorts of characters and I for one don't know if it's genuine or not

The Presence is very consistently portrayed as being a false god, like a false god that can be surpassed. His hax does move everything in creation, but many characters just grow stronger and beat him. Lucifer even killed him before

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Yeah in some continuities, obviously he's treated as being a false god while in other continuities he's the supreme god of the DCU.
See that's why IMO, if we're gonna say that a character is above The Presence then we need a good reason for why they should be instead of just a random statement from them.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Also what constitutes as "very consistenly"? Technically the character, The Presence, wasn't a thing till the late 90's Spectre comics and the first Lucifer run, where he is treated as being the supreme god of the DCU and everything and evenyone is below him and I think in even Scott Snyder's JL run The Source/The Presence as treated as being above the likes of Perpetua who is currently established as being the creator of the multiverse

 

[Garchomp777]

There's literally weapons in rebirth that are stated to kill any god which should include the presence as its even made by a person strong enough to fight the great darkness, also I disagree with perpetua being below the presence, but we not gonna talk about that here. These feats on the OP in particular, are consistent. And when I mean very consistently, I mean its shown time and time again, that The Presence is not even in the top 10. There are characters not on this wiki that surpassed him too

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Well I suppose it's not impossible, there's the likes of Prayala who's implied to have predated The Presence and creation but that's the only example I can think atm.
Regardless about the thread, can the OP please directly link the scans that talk about the claims instead of linking the entire comic? I'm tired of getting constant ads

 

[Garchomp777]

Yeah seriously rana, good job on this thread but, we need scans other than links to the comics bro

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Exactly, it's nicely organized but I'd rather not get a virus on my phone please.
it also spares me the pain of having to read that JL/Doom Patrol crossover again.

 

[RanaProGamer]

Really sorry about this, lemme try something real quick.

 

[RanaProGamer]

I am on PC, but it is not doing this. Nonetheless it's a bad way to link scans.

Ok, I'll do a quick fix.

Then why are you using them for a CRT?

What? I'm agreeing with you after you brought it up. Especially since you brought up a pretty good point of the vagueness of that statement.

It's questionable whether or not this would apply to the Presence, especially 35 years later when the Cosmology has expanded so much.

The Cosmology did expand, yes. But wouldn't this just mean that creation was always the same, just that most parts of it was unknown up until later comics?

 

[Amakasu]

If I remember correctly, the Presence at this point of time is top of the heiracrchy chain which includes beings like perpetua, and other beings. So I don't think old characters would scale to the current presence

 

[Garchomp777]

If I remember correctly, the Presence at this point of time is top of the heiracrchy chain which includes beings like perpetua, and other beings. So I don't think old characters would scale to the current presence

previous presence is still 1-A though
And we both know presence is weaker than them now, just not the wiki

 

[Amakasu]

previous presence is still 1-A though

One of his key is 1A and the other is high 1A due to the overvoid shenanigans. The Source presence is not the same as the overvoid presence.

 

[Garchomp777]

One of his key is 1A and the other is high 1A due to the overvoid shenanigans. The Source presence is not the same as the overvoid presence.

The presence, overvoid and the source are all different

 

[Amakasu]

The presence, overvoid and the source are all different

I think you haven't see the god profile, the Source, the Presence and the overvoid in their most abstract form are one and the same in the wiki.

 

[Garchomp777]

I think you haven't see the god profile, the Source, the Presence and the overvoid in their most abstract form are one and the same in the wiki.

in the wiki yeah but in dc nah

 

[Xearsay]

I think you haven't see the god profile, the Source, the Presence and the overvoid in their most abstract form are one and the same in the wiki.

No offense but the God profile is literally 100% headcanon. The Presence has never been connected to the Overvoid in material ever. I don’t even know how the hell anyone could come to that.

 

[Garchomp777]

God is literally just the presence, that entire profile is just made with random headcanon

 

[RanaProGamer]

I'm going to stop there. Trying to find the scans in the links as provided is tedious.

Yeah seriously rana, good job on this thread but, we need scans other than links to the comics bro

Exactly, it's nicely organized but I'd rather not get a virus on my phone please.
it also spares me the pain of having to read that JL/Doom Patrol crossover again.

And done, hopefully, third time's the charm. I used Imgur this time.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Thank you, much better.
But if isn't much to ask for, could you summarize the proposed tiering and hax for the DP from your thread? So far I'm mostly seeing 1-A

 

[RanaProGamer]

Thank you, much better.
But if isn't much to ask for, could you summarize the proposed tiering and hax for the DP from your thread? So far I'm mostly seeing 1-A

Sure. Though its hard to pinpoint the exact tiers for some characters.

Dorothy would be possibly 1-A for being able to trap the Candle Maker with her mind. Candle Maker would be 1-A from nearly destroying the archetypal New York and residing in the Astral Plane. Though when she killed him, he was heavily weakened. She can make her imaginary friends real to aid her in battle, longevity, empathic manip and fear manip. She also resisted Memory Manipulation as well.

Flex Mentallo would be High 1-A for overpowering the Retconn Corporation Fail-Safe which was going to wipe out the entire Overvoid. His hax (which isn't included in his profile) include Longevity, Dimensional travel, Flight, Energy projection, Mind control, Telepathy, Perception manip, Biological manipulation, Illusion creation, Cosmic awareness and Transmutation.

Base Robotman is unknown since we don't know strong the vampires he beat are. But he has fought Retcon Corporation forces which can fight Lobo and JL member, so possibly 4-B. He has Genius Intelligence, Longevity, Enhanced senses, Surface scaling on metal only, Heat manip, Acrobatics, Limited memory manipulation and Technology manip on Nanotechnology. He also resisted hallucinations.

Planet Cliff would be 5-B via size alone. Since he actually grew this large, he would have Size manip and Large size Type 5. He killed Flex Mentallo, but his death was described as some kind of suicide since Cliff described it as 'hero-ed himself into oblivion.

Teiresias Cliff would be 1-A or High 1-A scaling from the other Teiresias who can destroy creation and have possible scaling to Antagon who scales to Presence. As for hax, not much is shown for the Teiresias, except Creation, Existence Erasure, Deconstruction, and Regeneration.

Negative Man would be 1-A as well due to being able to harm Candle Maker and destroyed his body when he got weakened. His vibration manip can slow down the Decreator who is an anti-god. His other hax includes Longevity, Teleportation, BFR, Flight, Zero Dimensionality, Intangibility, Radiation manip, Dimensional travel, Absorption, Social Influencing and Energy projection. He has resistance to Space and Concept manip thanks to Space Fix.

Crazy Jane would possibly also be 1-A or High 1-A for reverting Retconn altered characters and the Disappointment back to normal but she's reverting, not harming, meaning it might not scale. Jane has far too many abilities to list down here, so I'll leave that for her separately.

Elastic Girl is hard to determine as well, as her bouncing back a bullet from the Disappointment was due to her hax and likely durability. She might scale to 4-B for also fighting Retconn Corporation Forces. Her hax is Elasticity, Body Control, Size Manip as she becomes big or small, Longevity and Dimensional Travel. She even can become Omni-Present and resist Reality Warping.

Danny the Street would be High 1-A for breaking through the wall of the Overvoid. He can Teleport, Dimensional travel, Social Influencing, Empathic manip, Life Manip, Acausality, Non-Existent Physiology, Transformation, Time Travel, and a small degree of Reality Warping.

As for speed, everyone should be MFTL+ scaling from Retconn Corporation forces being able to fight JL members. Only characters like Danny The Street only as an ambulance should be given Immeasurable speed.

 

[Garchomp777]

Sure. Though its hard to pinpoint the exact tiers for some characters.

Dorothy would be possibly 1-A for being able to trap the Candle Maker with her mind. Candle Maker would be 1-A from nearly destroying the archetypal New York and residing in the Astral Plane. Though when she killed him, he was heavily weakened. She can make her imaginary friends real to aid her in battle, longevity, empathic manip and fear manip. She also resisted Memory Manipulation as well.

Flex Mentallo would be High 1-A for overpowering the Retconn Corporation Fail-Safe which was going to wipe out the entire Overvoid. His hax (which isn't included in his profile) include Longevity, Dimensional travel, Flight, Energy projection, Mind control, Telepathy, Perception manip, Biological manipulation, Illusion creation, Cosmic awareness and Transmutation.

Base Robotman is unknown since we don't know strong the vampires he beat are. But he has fought Retcon Corporation forces which can fight Lobo and JL member, so possibly 4-B. He has Genius Intelligence, Longevity, Enhanced senses, Surface scaling on metal only, Heat manip, Acrobatics, Limited memory manipulation and Technology manip on Nanotechnology. He also resisted hallucinations.

Planet Cliff would be 5-B via size alone. Since he actually grew this large, he would have Size manip and Large size Type 5. He killed Flex Mentallo, but his death was described as some kind of suicide since Cliff described it as 'hero-ed himself into oblivion.

Teiresias Cliff would be 1-A or High 1-A scaling from the other Teiresias who can destroy creation and have possible scaling to Antagon who scales to Presence. As for hax, not much is shown for the Teiresias, except Creation, Existence Erasure, Deconstruction, and Regeneration.

Negative Man would be 1-A as well due to being able to harm Candle Maker and destroyed his body when he got weakened. His vibration manip can slow down the Decreator who is an anti-god. His other hax includes Longevity, Teleportation, BFR, Flight, Zero Dimensionality, Intangibility, Radiation manip, Dimensional travel, Absorption, Social Influencing and Energy projection. He has resistance to Space and Concept manip thanks to Space Fix.

Crazy Jane would possibly also be 1-A or High 1-A for reverting Retconn altered characters and the Disappointment back to normal but she's reverting, not harming, meaning it might not scale. Jane has far too many abilities to list down here, so I'll leave that for her separately.

Elastic Girl is hard to determine as well, as her bouncing back a bullet from the Disappointment was due to her hax and likely durability. She might scale to 4-B for also fighting Retconn Corporation Forces. Her hax is Elasticity, Body Control, Size Manip as she becomes big or small, Longevity and Dimensional Travel. She even can become Omni-Present and resist Reality Warping.

Danny the Street would be High 1-A for breaking through the wall of the Overvoid. He can Teleport, Dimensional travel, Social Influencing, Empathic manip, Life Manip, Acausality, Non-Existent Physiology, Transformation, Time Travel, and a small degree of Reality Warping.

As for speed, everyone should be MFTL+ scaling from Retconn Corporation forces being able to fight JL members. Only characters like Danny The Street only as an ambulance should be given Immeasurable speed.

Uhh thats irrelevant speed since they're outerversal, they fight amped JL members in the overvoid and stuff, not regular forms. And im sure the ambulance has irrelevant speed via being outerversal

 

[RanaProGamer]

Uhh thats irrelevant speed since they're outerversal, they fight amped JL members in the overvoid and stuff, not regular forms. And im sure the ambulance has irrelevant speed via being outerversal

Oh right, Tier 1 characters all have Irrelevant speed.

 

[RanaProGamer]

Also, were everyone amped? Is that why you have cases like Wonder Woman stopping a punch from MilkMan Man?

 

[Amakasu]

Also, were everyone amped? Is that why you have cases like Wonder Woman stopping a punch from MilkMan Man?

Yes