DC Comics - Animal Man Cosmology Determination

[PrinceofPein]

They are separated roughly like this:

Tier: 9-B | Low 2-C

Key: Base | Enhanced by the M-Field

I can add the second key later on when I get home

 

[Confluctor]

Leaving aside how wrong the rating is, there is no need for a key. This works fine, a key doesn't work well taking everything into account.

Also, pain or anyone else who added the edits, you better add those references asap.

 

[Transcending]

Also, pain or anyone else who added the edits, you better add those references asap.

Is including references in Imgur albums fine?

 

[Confluctor]

No

 

[Deagonx]

Leaving aside how wrong the rating is,

Agreed, the rating is a little high/exaggerated, but this is a good compromise.

there is no need for a key. This works fine, a key doesn't work well taking everything into account.

Sounds good to me.

 

[Antvasima]

There is no need for a key. This works fine, a key doesn't work well taking everything into account.

Okay. Never mind then, I suppose.

Also, pain or anyone else who added the edits, you better add those references asap.

That would be very appreciated, yes.

See here for instructions please:

Standard Format for Character Profiles

When there are multiple versions of a character that are distinct enough to be split into several profiles, whether it is due to the length and complexity of the page or versions from different mediums, then the multiple pages that are created as a result of this have to be linked by a tabber...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Xearsay]

I don’t need care about implied or what you think.
Do you have any stated proof or showings?

None of this is what I said or think. The Red/Lifeweb/M-field is a specific type of force in DC that connects all life and encompasses many actual places in the cosmology. Making it an object composed of many parts. Which is one of the definitions of a structure.

 

[Xearsay]

Higher plane =/= Higher ontological level

Coupled with the scans talking about how the World Soul is a higher level of consciousness, it definitely would help support a higher ontological or nature of being.

You have not proven that the system of "whole of wholes" is levels of reality, which was your initial assertion. Your basis for it was illogical, and you have not proven that the world soul's "higher plane" is ontological.

Read above.

No, he asked "who was dreaming who." He never said beings dreamed each other

You realize the Writer wondering who is dreams who in the universe, directly implies there are beings dreaming each other right?

I responded multiple times. The phrase "the physical universe" itself implies 3-A to Low 2-C by it's very definition, combined with the fact that man's plane of existence was regarded as 3-D. You chose not to accept this, but that doesn't matter.

No you didn’t. Matter of fact this is exactly where I asked you for proof of the story establishing the definition of the physical universe as a 3-A to low 2-C structure. And your only response to this was to repeat yourself.

In what way does that imply the Imaginal Worlds are at the top?

It’s implied because before coming back down to his home, we would find Buddy in the imaginal worlds where he would meet the Spider Queen. The Spider Queen is the one who basically allowed for Buddy to return home.

 

[Deagonx]

Coupled with the scans talking about how the World Soul is a higher level of consciousness, it definitely would help support a higher ontological or nature of being

No, it wouldn't, and you haven't shown any scans saying the World Soul is a higher level of consciousness

You realize the Writer wondering who is dreams who in the universe, directly implies there are beings dreaming each other right?

It does not dictate who those people are.

No you didn’t. Matter of fact this is exactly where I asked you for proof of the story establishing the definition of the physical universe as a 3-A to low 2-C structure. And your only response to this was to repeat yourself.

The fact that it's called a physical universe dictates that. I get it, you are in denial about this. However, that's not my problem.

It’s implied because before coming back down to his home, we would find Buddy in the imaginal worlds where he would meet the Spider Queen. The Spider Queen is the one who basically allowed for Buddy to return home.

How does that mean the imaginal worlds are at the top? This is a complete non sequitur.

 

[PrinceofPein]

None of this is what I said or think. The Red/Lifeweb/M-field is a specific type of force in DC that connects all life and encompasses many actual places in the cosmology. Making it an object composed of many parts. Which is one of the definitions of a structure.

No one out here is arguing if the lifeweb stretches across multiple place
As far as I know, I know the web stretches across the universe and the imagination Realms.
The structure I am talking about is the said 1-A structure you said it encompass

 

[Confluctor]

I still don't see references added. Better add them asap.

 

[Antvasima]

I still don't see references added. Better add them asap.

@Pain_to12 @Deagonx

Would you be willing to add References for the issue numbers of the stories in question please? Or is somebody else here willing to handle it? Help would be appreciated.

 

[Transcending]

@Pain_to12 @Deagonx

Would you be willing to add References for the issue numbers of the stories in question please? Or is somebody else here willing to handle it? Help would be appreciated.

About references, for my Superman remake, when I tried to add references it didn't become a superscript and instead stayed with the same size as normal text. Do you know how to fix it?

 

[Antvasima]

It isn't really my area, or at least I have limited time available, but can you provide a link, so I can at least take a look, please?

 

[Transcending]

It isn't really my area, or at least I have limited time available, but can you provide a link, so I can at least take a look, please?

Here, and please don't edit it.

 

[Confluctor]

It's fine, dw about it. As long as it acts the same, should be fine.

 

[Transcending]

Nvm I fixed it.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is good then.

Btw: I removed the tier categories, as they mess up our wiki's organisation when placed in blog posts or sandboxes.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I still don't see references added. Better add them asap.

@Pain_to12 @Deagonx

Would you be willing to add References for the issue numbers of the stories in question please? Or is somebody else here willing to handle it? Help would be appreciated.

When I am on PC, I will add them

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. I appreciate it.

 

[Malomtek]

Having (re)read the thread and its arguments, I must say that, although I'm not accusing anyone of anything, Deagonx and Pain definitely give off the appearance of being almost deliberately self-limiting in their understanding of the material here.

Leaving aside the semantic arguments about "physical universe", a product of people looking way too hard at word choices instead of how the cosmology is actually being structured, there is no evidence in particular that the metaphysical realms of Animal Man are supposed to be on the same "general existential level" as the physical universe. We have the literal writer avatar in the comic referencing or outright name-dropping David Bohm's implicate order multiple, with all that implies, yet we're currently expected to believe that nothing in Animal Man's cosmology or Animal Man's personal movelist extends beyond a low 2-C rating. It's genuinely absurd.

And this is coming from me, who (upon further inspection) believes that all that stuff about an "infinitely self-reflecting/self-recursive" universe doesn't extend it any farther than 2-A, or prove that it has any sort of "hierarchy".

The "imaginal realms" alone, with how they are described to extend beyond space and time in the wider universe should be more than enough for at least a low 1-C, with this also meaning (in conjunction, not as a consequence of anything) that Animal Man's "universe" is not just one low 2-C spacetime continuum.

 

[Deagonx]

We have the literal writer avatar in the comic referencing or outright name-dropping David Bohm's implicate order multiple, with all that implies

Numerous cosmological myths and concepts were name dropped in this series. It's erroneous to take a specific one of them at face value in the absence of actual tangible evidence that certain aspects of these myths exist in the series itself.

The "imaginal realms" alone, with how they are described to extend beyond space and time in the wider universe should be more than enough for at least a low 1-C

Why would being outside space and time imply that it transcends the universe by 1-2 infinities, which is what 1-C is?

 

[Malomtek]

Numerous cosmological myths and concepts were name dropped in this series. It's erroneous to take a specific one of them at face value in the absence of actual tangible evidence that certain aspects of these myths exist in the series itself.

And what, exactly, would "actual tangible evidence" of "certain aspects of these myths" entail for you? We've got descriptions of the imaginal realms as existing beyond space and time. We've got descriptions of the "weight of matter and chains of self" as coming from the "diamond-hardness of reality, the explicate unfolding from the implicate", meaning that things such as "matter" and "self" and "reality" are only aspects of the "explicate order", which is generated by a much deeper "implicate order", which goes beyond these things. Matter, of course, is tied to space and time

All these metaphysical concepts in Animal Man seem very much interconnected and tend to "tie into" each other a lot, so asking about the particular elements of a single "specific one of them", as if it's isolated from the rest, is absurd in any context, and asking for "actual tangible evidence" when it's all but directly stated that "these metaphysical realms are deeper than physical reality" sounds like an exercise in naked goalpost-shifting if not outright stonewalling, to put it mildly.

And to be frank, the idea that the story that introduced Grant Morrison's "Comic Book Limbo" (of Final Crisis: Superman Beyond fame) to DC's wider cosmology somehow isn't taking stuff like "implicate orders" and "white void lights" all that seriously is an exercise in ludicrousness all on its own. We know how Grant Morrison thinks of these things, and when you look at it from a Morrisonian perspective, these things are not very hard to understand. Even from a "cosmology split" perspective, the high tier of these realms is exceedingly clear, especially when you look at Grant Morrison's entire catalogue of DC Comics works.

Why would being outside space and time imply that it transcends the universe by 1-2 infinities, which is what 1-C is?

Because that's how we've always tiered these things? Being described as transcending a universal spacetime continuum is pretty much low 1-C by default in our books, and nothing whatsoever suggests the alternative, that the imaginal realms (or whatever other metaphysical realm exists in Animal Man) simply exist "orthogonally" or "adjacent to" or "just outside" physical spacetime.

 

[Deagonx]

And what, exactly, would "actual tangible evidence" of "certain aspects of these myths" entail for you?

Actual scans saying that these aspects are present.

We've got descriptions of the imaginal realms as existing beyond space and time. We've got descriptions of the "weight of matter and chains of self" as coming from the "diamond-hardness of reality, the explicate unfolding from the implicate", meaning that things such as "matter" and "self" and "reality" are only aspects of the "explicate order", which is generated by a much deeper "implicate order", which goes beyond these things. Matter, of course, is tied to space and time

None of this has been rejected, because there is evidence for them.

All these metaphysical concepts in Animal Man seem very much interconnected and tend to "tie into" each other a lot, so asking about the particular elements of a single "specific one of them", as if it's isolated from the rest, is absurd in any context, and asking for "actual tangible evidence" when it's all but directly stated that "these metaphysical realms are deeper than physical reality" sounds like an exercise in naked goalpost-shifting if not outright stonewalling, to put it mildly.

And to be frank, the idea that the story that introduced Grant Morrison's "Comic Book Limbo" (of Final Crisis: Superman Beyond fame) to DC's wider cosmology somehow isn't taking stuff like "implicate orders" and "white void lights" all that seriously is an exercise in ludicrousness all on its own. We know how Grant Morrison thinks of these things, and when you look at it from a Morrisonian perspective, these things are not very hard to understand. Even from a "cosmology split" perspective, the high tier of these realms is exceedingly clear, especially when you look at Grant Morrison's entire catalogue of DC Comics works

Honestly I'm not all that sure what you are trying to say here.

Because that's how we've always tiered these things? Being described as transcending a universal spacetime continuum is pretty much low 1-C by default in our books

Wait, where was it said to transcend it? All you said was beyond, which means outside of.

and nothing whatsoever suggests the alternative, that the imaginal realms (or whatever other metaphysical realm exists in Animal Man) simply exist "orthogonally" or "adjacent to" or "just outside" physical spacetime

This is what beyond means. We'd need explicit evidence that these realms not only transcend the universe, but that they infinitely transcend it, which is an even higher degree, and so far I've seen no evidence of that.

 

[Jibz]

Ratio these mfs Malomtek.

 

[Deagonx]

Ratio these mfs Malomtek.

Call me crazy, but perhaps how popular a sentiment is shouldn't be considered a meaningful metric for how logically consistent it is.

Maybe that's just me though.

 

[Jibz]

Not reading allat

 

[Deagonx]

Well color me shocked.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Having (re)read the thread and its arguments, I must say that, although I'm not accusing anyone of anything, Deagonx and Pain definitely give off the appearance of being almost deliberately self-limiting in their understanding of the material here.

Leaving aside the semantic arguments about "physical universe", a product of people looking way too hard at word choices instead of how the cosmology is actually being structured, there is no evidence in particular that the metaphysical realms of Animal Man are supposed to be on the same "general existential level" as the physical universe. We have the literal writer avatar in the comic referencing or outright name-dropping David Bohm's implicate order multiple, with all that implies, yet we're currently expected to believe that nothing in Animal Man's cosmology or Animal Man's personal movelist extends beyond a low 2-C rating. It's genuinely absurd.

And this is coming from me, who (upon further inspection) believes that all that stuff about an "infinitely self-reflecting/self-recursive" universe doesn't extend it any farther than 2-A, or prove that it has any sort of "hierarchy".

The "imaginal realms" alone, with how they are described to extend beyond space and time in the wider universe should be more than enough for at least a low 1-C, with this also meaning (in conjunction, not as a consequence of anything) that Animal Man's "universe" is not just one low 2-C spacetime continuum.

I don’t know what you read here to make accusations but I think you should read again and more clearly this time.

First, no one said the cosmology is low 2-C, the highest feat we saw animal man perform is low 2-C. There is a huge difference in those two. Animal man has nothing to say he should scale to the cosmology which is why you are seeing the low 2-C talks, not because the entire cosmology is just low 2-C.

Secondly, OP thinks imaginary realms are 1-A, at least you say they are low 1-C, that is actually reasonable but -
When were they explicitly shown that although they exist outside the physical universe, they transcend it or hold ontological difference over it.

I’m still waiting for the proof of your accusations, especially the one where I said the entire cosmology is low 2-C, like you claimed.

 

[Antvasima]

So can you explain which tiering would you assign to the different parts of the Animal Man cosmology, and the reasons for this, please, Malomtek?

 

[Antvasima]

Ratio these mfs Malomtek.

Not reading allat

Also, these kind of comments are very rude and unwarranted.

 

[Jibz]

Also, these kind of comments are very rude and unwarranted.

You made similar comments towards users credibility and tried abusing perms to get the thread closed before an argument had been made. I don’t need etiquette advice from the likes of you.

But yeah i’ll stop with the comments.

 

[Antvasima]

I made perhaps overly blunt comments based on my honestly perceived past experiences of Xearsay's pattern of seemingly dishonest rhetorics, which seems to have been repeated here, and regarding that this exact topic has been argued about extensively and debunked previously.

I also did not use any mocking or outright rude choice of words as far as I recall, and have a history of almost consistently trying to be polite, helpful, and considerate to the members of this community, so yes, I am in a position of to give behaviour instructions. In fact, it is part of my job here to try to help see to that the toxicity is kept to a minimum.

 

[Jibz]

Go back to messing up threads and ill go back to listening to music

 

[Antvasima]

I am not sure why exactly that you are really upset, but if it is due to real world events, that is not my fault. I am just a volunteer worker who is generally trying to help the members of this community as well as I am able, even if there are no guarantees that I will always agree with your wanted revisions.

 

[Deagonx]

Go back to messing up threads and ill go back to listening to music

If you want threads to go correctly, make a solid argument.

 

[Jibz]

If you want threads to go correctly, make a solid argument.

Uh okay? Doesn't make me any less wrong.

 

[Jibz]

I am not sure why exactly that you are really upset, but if it is due to real world events, that is not my fault. I am just a volunteer worker who is generally trying to help the members of this community as well as I am able, even if there are no guarantees that I will always agree with your wanted revisions.

I'm not upset, im just saying it how it is. You are, in my eyes, an objective detriment to the wiki for the most part, outside of maintenance. If you and two or three more people were just gone from the wiki, it'd be a better place. The way vsbw is going just sucks to me thats all. It's not me being upset, it's me just not caring.

And with that message done, im unfollowing the thread, there's no need for me to derail for longer, i've said what i needed to say.

 

[Deagonx]

Uh okay? Doesn't make me any less wrong.

You realize that the phrase "doesn't make me any less wrong" implies that you're wrong, yes? Anyways, it doesn't seem that you understood what I meant.

If you want threads to go correctly, make a good argument that will be accepted.

If you can't, then defer to the people that can.

You are, in my eyes, an objective detriment to the wiki for the most part, outside of maintenance. If you and two or three more people were just gone from the wiki, it'd be a better place. The way vsbw is going just sucks to me thats all. It's not me being upset, it's me just not caring.

Be the change you want to see on the site. If you can't do that (and based on your contributions, you can't), then you have no right to criticize those that are making an effort.

Your entire post history is, almost without exception, low effort comments. It seems incredibly ironic to me that you would say the site would be better off without specific people, when almost certainly the site would be better off without low effort comments like yours.

And with that message done, im unfollowing the thread, there's no need for me to derail for longer, i've said what i needed to say.

Feel free to tuck tail and run if you can't defend your position.

 

[Xearsay]

No, it wouldn't, and you haven't shown any scans saying the World Soul is a higher level of consciousness

The scan is the main post. As I said before the World Soul clearly has a higher scale for its level of being due to being a higher level of consciousness.

It does not dictate who those people are.

I don’t get your point here.

The fact that it's called a physical universe dictates that. I get it, you are in denial about this. However, that's not my problem.

As I said before, give proof that being called the physical universe dictates that it’s a 3-A to low 2-C structure.

How does that mean the imaginal worlds are at the top? This is a complete non sequitur.

We just went over how the statement mentions that before coming back to life Buddy had to descend down the lifeweb from the top. So if Buddy was in the imaginal worlds before descending back down into his own home, that means the imaginal worlds were the top of the Lifeweb.