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DBS spacetime has several contradictions (staff only)

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RisingIons

RisingIons

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Permission from KingTempest.

I feel like Zen'o didn't really erase all of the future timeline, but more so he erased a frame of time, which allows the present (and by association any concept of a future) to not exist. This could explain how the past can be so freely travelled to. Though I still don't understand Trunks's time machine travelling.

One of the most common time paradoxes, the Grandfather Paradox, suggests that if you go back in time and kill your grandfather so that your parents are never born, you will have never existed, so therefore how could you have time travelled?

This is not a cosmology thread, but an evaluation of how this wiki treats spacetime feats, and how we treat them in Dragon Ball.

Backstory​

When we see Zen'o destroy universes (specifically using U10 in this example), we see he is capable of non-local erasure. He erased U10 from inside the Null Realm, which included all except the Angel being erased while also inside the Null Realm, even property originating in that universe was erased.

So to suggest that Zen'o erased the whole timeline (nobody is saying he didn't) also suggests that Trunks and the time machine should've been erased, which would've made the plot of the show go far different. For one, no time machine or Trunks they wouldn't have been able to bring Zen'o back. Granted, MOST changes to timelines don't affect the past of the timeline, but rather reflect as a parallel world. The simplest way to explain this for those who've played Xenoverse is the main timeline is the story mode, but the branches are parallel quests.

I understand that existence erasure in DB generally doesn't affect the history/causality of timelines. However we consider destruction of a timeline as destroying ALL past/present/future. Discrepancies in time also effect timelines.

There were 5 time rings before the Black Arc happened, the silver being the main timeline, and there were 6 after Zen'o erased the future. Even if you include Beerus erasing Zamasu creating another timeline where he wasn't erased, the net change of existing timelines would still be off by 1, unless Whis had already restored the future before Gowasu opened the time ring box, which would explain why there was 6 rings and not 5 (or 4?). But that isn't directly supported.

Whis's Actions + Paradox​

Whis states that it is possible to go back in time to a point where Trunks's future wasn't erased, effectively having two copies of Trunks and Mai. However this is contradicted later in the Tournament of Power Arc with the examples above. If Whis could go back to a point in the timeline before it was erased, then that would logically mean that some part of the timeline still exists. He specifically states that he will warn Future Beerus to use a far better sealing technique than the mafuuba, as destroying Zamasu would just create another timeline and repeat the Black Arc again. This would mean that Whis would have to go back in time beyond Trunks's Majin Revival arc, as Shin was killed in the fight against Dabura, thus so was Beerus.
https://zjcdn.********.me/store/manga/16093/04-026.0/compressed/d038.jpg

However, if going back in time to prevent the Black Arc from happening again is an event that actually happens, then the fight in the future never happens which would contradict this entire arc even existing, and it would also mean that Zen'o is never summoned to Earth to erase the timeline in the first place. It should also be noted that the only stated people capable of manipulating time without effecting causality are Whis who can only rewind three minutes, and a Kaioshin wearing the time ring. Otherwise, going back into the past and changing it creates a new timeline. In which case Zen'o destroying the timeline would be like "capable of doing it, and did it, but actually didn't". Unless there's some weird quantum superposition thing going on where the universe is both simultaneously erased and existing at the same time. One thing that’s for sure is going back in time before Zen’o erased the timeline doesn’t create a new one by Whis’s statements.

Also, if Zamasu truly merged with space and time at least by our standards, then if Zamasu merging with time meant he did so as past/present/future, then if Whis does go back in time in the same timeline, technically Zamasu should still exist in his universe form, unless he doesn't occupy all points in time for whatever reason.

ZBW1PHl.png

Z79UwUT.png

aAshIiT.png


TL;DR: Zeno erases timeline, Whis goes back in time in said timeline to a point before Zeno erasing it, which would be at least before Trunks's Majin Revival arc, which proves time in some aspect still exists.

Also...

Preventing Zamasu from ever destroying the future timeline ---> therefore Zeno never erased the future timeline (technically he did) --> therefore all events in the main timeline starting from Trunks using the time machine and onward never happened (technically they did).

How do we treat this where it makes sense?
 
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The manga is a separate continuity from the Anime version yeah, and he literally nukes all 12 universes with a Ki blast in the Anime. Also, the lack of paradoxes is not a good argument because that's just how Dragon Ball's Multiverse works is that a new timeline is born each and every time someone travels back in time and makes one simple change.
 
RisingIons said:
Preventing Zamasu from ever destroying the future timeline ---> therefore Zeno never erased the future timeline (technically he did) --> therefore all events in the main timeline starting from Trunks using the time machine and onward never happened (technically they did).
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You know this is just the Grandfather Paradox, right? Which most of fiction ignores whenever exploring time travel? Hell, they literally have the Time Ring, an in-verse middle finger to it.
 
I know I don't have permission to post here but I just wanted to point this out

About the timelines I don't think their are any inconsistencies or problems here are the ones that I remember

Timeline 1: let's call it the main timeline (even though it's timeline 3 that is the actual main one). It's the timeline in which all of the events db,DBZ and super occurs
Timeline 2: the timeline from which future Trunks we know comes from and this was later destroyed by zeno
Timeline 3: The timeline from which Cell comes from where he killed Trunks
Timeline 4: According to diazenshu this is the timeline in which cell games occurs without Trunks
main-qimg-f3b81612ffb33e9fa972072aa7753f8c

This covers the timelines from z now onto the ones created in super
Timeline 5:The timeline in which Frieza destroys earth during the events of resurrection of f
Timeline 6: The timeline in which Beerus doesn't erases Zamasu and he probably made the wish to receive Goku's body
Timeline 7: The new future trunks timeline that Whis made
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
The manga is a separate continuity from the Anime version yeah, and he literally nukes all 12 universes with a Ki blast in the Anime. Also, the lack of paradoxes is not a good argument because that's just how Dragon Ball's Multiverse works is that a new timeline is born each and every time someone travels back in time and makes one simple change.
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You're right it is, but I only posted the manga scans to support the anime scans which say the same exact thing. The only manga scans present that are manga-only are the from the teacher explaining how a paradox works.

Also, I'm not talking about the lack of paradoxes, but the overwhelming presence of them. As I stated in my OP, I'm aware that time rings specifically protect the user against such paradoxes. My main issue here is Whis being able to go back in time in the same timeline that Zeno erased (his words), which modifies the chain of cause and effect well before the Zamasu arc happens in future Trunks's timeline. The only counter to this would be that Whis did mean a parallel world, which would suggest several other timelines that exist, which is contradicted by the total number of time rings before and after the arc increasing by 1.

We don't have anything in the tiering system that mentions what happens when spacetime is only partially destroyed, as Whis implicitly states that he can still go back in time in the same timeline that Zeno was stated to erase, not go back in time to a different parallel world.
 
I think I get the OP's point. He's trying to say that Whis didn't time travel back to the past of a different timeline, but rather, Whis time traveled back to the past of the destroyed timeline Zen'o nuked. And then henceforth, means time in this timeline still existed for that to happen in the first place.
 
Well, getting technical about it, wouldn't destroying an entire timeline require destroying all parts of it before it branched off from another timeline as well, which in turn would have to destroy all other timelines that spun off from the main branch at some point as well? At least when it works the way it does in Dragon Ball.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, getting technical about it, wouldn't destroying an entire timeline require destroying all parts of it before it branched off from another timeline as well, which in turn would have to destroy all other timelines that spun off from the main branch at some point as well? At least when it works the way it does in Dragon Ball.
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Yes, but timeline destruction seems to be very counterintuitive in DBS. Whis was told that the timeline was destroyed and he’s all like “well we could go back but it’s too late”.

Like let’s be real. If I told a person they’re timeline was destroyed, why would they think they could go back in the first place? Yes they went back, but Whis’ response makes no sense regardless.
 
I suppose so. I was not taking a side above, just musing out loud.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, getting technical about it, wouldn't destroying an entire timeline require destroying all parts of it before it branched off from another timeline as well, which in turn would have to destroy all other timelines that spun off from the main branch at some point as well? At least when it works the way it does in Dragon Ball.
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In most other fictions most likely, in DB no. Clearly Zeno erasing whatever he did had no impact on the main timeline, or the other timelines. It works a similar way in Xenoverse.

Ironically, we also base our knowledge of Universe 7's parallel universes created by Bulma's time machines on the time rings kept by Universe 10's Supreme Kai, which leads to the suspicion that all universes may indeed share the same time.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
The manga is a separate continuity from the Anime version yeah, and he literally nukes all 12 universes with a Ki blast in the Anime. Also, the lack of paradoxes is not a good argument because that's just how Dragon Ball's Multiverse works is that a new timeline is born each and every time someone travels back in time and makes one simple change.
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So should we go with this conclusion then?
 
I'm pretty sure that a thread very similar to this was made relatively recently, and iirc, the conclusion was to just kinda ignore the space-time and timeline shenanigans, and just go with the simplest interpretation, which is that Zeno destroyed 12 separate universes, thus he's 2-C.
Now I have no idea how that interpretation fits the standards tbh, but I'm pretty sure that's what we went with at the time.
 
I have read through it, but it's still a repeat of the same problems brought up in previous threads. Zamasu merging with time and space comes from the fact that Zamasu's face was appearing in other timelines; so that at the very least shows he does occupy some degree of 5-D space. And the whole, "Oh but he never was shown to be visible in Trunk's timeline up until now indicates he never merged with the past to begin with" was also just a common degree of lazy writing. The Anime still says he transcends the law and order of the universe, not just the physical matter or the spatial boundaries. And it is logically easier to merge with the present and future than it is to merge with even a fraction of other timelines if his grown is implied to be omnidirectional. And the fact that Zeno was able to nuke him and all 12 Universes with a Ki blast also shows Zeno also possesses limited range as well. And Zeno only merged with Universe 7 despite him appearing in the present timeline's Universe 7 and Zeno still clearly nuking all 12 universes. Also, there's little we know about Zeno and we do not know if he likely has Time Paradox Immunity. But nothing was left but a white void, which indicates he nuked the space and not just all physical matter. And it also erased Zeno from the present timeline despite it taking place years before where Trunks was around.

So we have evidence that it at least was able to effect several years into the past and effect other timelines outright not just the 12 universes. And I recall other statements brought up on other threads about universes having space-times functioning differently and certain paradoxes only effecting their own universes not just all 12. And there's still notes the Timelines behave similar to those of Brane Cosmologies, but I think it was Proud Learner who knew more examples.
 
Okay. Thank you for the evaluation. Should we close this thread then?
 
AKM's input would definitely be appreciated here. However, he is like really exhausted probably more so than I am at debating Dragon Ball threads. And while the OP did state "This isn't a cosmology thread" it still looks like one in AKM's eyes with the whole "It sounds like the 12 universes having their space-time continuums is contradicted" is something he's likely to see as another cosmology thread that is flavored in a rhetorical question format. I know I can't really speak for him and I don't personally like accusing users of doing such, but all I can say is that he's probably not going to happy about the thread considered a simple question that turned into a "Cosmology revision thread" was just closed a day before this thread was made. And I wouldn't want him to be too stressed out.
 
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DarkDragonMedeus said:
AKM's input would definitely be appreciated here. However, he is like really exhausted probably more so than I am at debating Dragon Ball threads. And while the OP did state "This isn't a cosmology thread" it still looks like one in AKM's eyes with the whole "It sounds like the 12 universes having their space-time continuums is contradicted" is something he's likely to see as another cosmology thread that is flavored in a rhetorical question format. I know I can't really speak for him and I don't personally like accusing users of doing such, but all I can say is that he's probably not going to happy about the thread considered a simple question that turned into a "Cosmology revision thread" was just closed a day before this thread was made. And I wouldn't want him to be too stressed out.
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Yeah, in all fairness, there's been way too many of these lately. I can understand the frustration.
 
UchihaSlayer96 said:
Yeah, in all fairness, there's been way too many of these lately. I can understand the frustration.
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Do tell me about it. There's been so many threads like these that they eventually get lost in the ******* wind, and when someone brings up threads like these again we can barely muster enough strength to look through the threads to see how we actually debunked it.

This is why we need a DB cosmology page ASAP.
 
I think I get the OP's point. He's trying to say that Whis didn't time travel back to the past of a different timeline, but rather, Whis time traveled back to the past of the destroyed timeline Zen'o nuked. And then henceforth, means time in this timeline still existed for that to happen in the first place.
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If this is the main point, we should note that every time someone time travels in time, it creates a different branch. If so, Goku & Co. travelled to the future a total of three times in that arc IIRC, so that should have created three extra branches of Future Trunks' timeline, albeit very similar. It could be that Whis was talking about one of these branches. Zeno destroyed a single branch, but that is still timeline destruction.
 
Yeah, the Timeline Zamasu fused could have very well given birth to an entirely new timeline altogether; since merging with time and space could still be seen as traveling back in time. Though not really travel, just grow until you occupy the all the past periods. But it still counts as stepping beyond the traditional time barrier and would thus effect the birth of new time branch(es). So he just might have merged with a different timeline's Universe 7 for all we know. Which may explain the whole; "Not like Zamasu's face has always been present in Trunks' timeline if he truly merged with space-time" issue commonly brought up.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I have read through it, but it's still a repeat of the same problems brought up in previous threads. Zamasu merging with time and space comes from the fact that Zamasu's face was appearing in other timelines; so that at the very least shows he does occupy some degree of 5-D space.
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Which we should note is only possible because Trunks’s time machine made a time rift in his own timeline. I think everyone knows that time travel doesn’t just create an alternate universe, but an alternate timeline, not that each universe has its own space-time which I don’t think is how we treat their cosmology

DarkDragonMedeus said:
And the whole, "Oh but he never was shown to be visible in Trunk's timeline up until now indicates he never merged with the past to begin with" was also just a common degree of lazy writing. The Anime still says he transcends the law and order of the universe, not just the physical matter or the spatial boundaries.
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Personally I just find this answer to be a convenient excuse. We use entirely too many hypotheticals and “maybes” for this verse because it inherently has too many holes in logic. Overriding the law and order can just as easily mean he solely became the entirety of the divine hierarchy, except for Zeno.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
And it is logically easier to merge with the present and future than it is to merge with even a fraction of other timelines if his grown is implied to be omnidirectional. And the fact that Zeno was able to nuke him and all 12 Universes with a Ki blast also shows Zeno also possesses limited range as well.
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Are you saying present and future of the future timeline? Because he was looking at going to the present timeline. And if you mean in the future timeline then that would also mean infinite Zamasu should be there when Whis goes back in time because for one we’re shown EE doesn’t affect causality and two also per Whis, time still existed in the past
DarkDragonMedeus said:
And Zeno only merged with Universe 7 despite him appearing in the present timeline's Universe 7 and Zeno still clearly nuking all 12 universes. Also, there's little we know about Zeno and we do not know if he likely has Time Paradox Immunity. But nothing was left but a white void, which indicates he nuked the space and not just all physical matter. And it also erased Zeno from the present timeline despite it taking place years before where Trunks was around.
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I don’t think the white void is a 100% indicator of everything being erased, as the world of void is also a spaceless place but it is black and appears cloudy. Also you keep confusing Zamasu and Zeno so per that last statement…I don’t think Zeno erased anybody from the present timeline. The only present Zamasu was Black who got GG’d when Trunks killed the fusion, who Beerus erased in the present and created another timeline where he wasn’t erased.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
So we have evidence that it at least was able to effect several years into the past and effect other timelines outright not just the 12 universes. And I recall other statements brought up on other threads about universes having space-times functioning differently and certain paradoxes only effecting their own universes not just all 12. And there's still notes the Timelines behave similar to those of Brane Cosmologies, but I think it was Proud Learner who knew more examples.
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Not sure where this first statement is coming from.

KLOL506 said:
Do tell me about it. There's been so many threads like these that they eventually get lost in the ******* wind, and when someone brings up threads like these again we can barely muster enough strength to look through the threads to see how we actually debunked it.

This is why we need a DB cosmology page ASAP.
Click to expand...
Can’t really do that when every thread about the topic is closed and half the community believes in different ideas.
 
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AKM sama said:
If this is the main point, we should note that every time someone time travels in time, it creates a different branch. If so, Goku & Co. travelled to the future a total of three times in that arc IIRC, so that should have created three extra branches of Future Trunks' timeline, albeit very similar. It could be that Whis was talking about one of these branches. Zeno destroyed a single branch, but that is still timeline destruction.
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But there aren’t any more corresponding time rings to justify that. There was only one more created after Zamasu is eventually defeated, which means Whis did his time travel business before we’re shown the time rings, or something else, which could be literally anything because we can only assume.

Whis directly referenced the same world that Trunks lost, not any other parallel world that was only slightly different from the one they actually fought in.
 
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