DBS Manga Speed Scaling (BETTER!!)

[GodlyCharmander]

Gas flying through interstellar space and Jiren flying faster than an unseen spaceship.

You can have opinions on the ship reaction things, but these two feats are the most solid we had since the manga started back in Z.

Freeza's technology is nothing special, and was dwarfed by humans, so U11 spaceships, literally made to get through planets in danger fast, should at least be comparable, if not higher!

Gas flew a distance 7 times greater than Goku's Instant Transmission range! Of course, it depends on energy, but a weaker Goku can reach New Namek by sensing Namekian fodders, so it's clear how great is the distance Gas flew in merely 20 minutes. Again, as solid as a feat as you can get, minus a stated distance (which would be nice)

 

[Damage3245]

You can have opinions on the ship reaction things, but these two feats are the most solid we had since the manga started back in Z.

I know, and that's saying a lot about the verse in my opinion.

Freeza's technology is nothing special, and was dwarfed by humans, so U11 spaceships, literally made to get through planets in danger fast, should at least be comparable, if not higher!

I'm surprised you're not trying to take it even further by scaling the ships of Moro's crew to the Frieza ship calc and arguing that beginning of Super Piccolo is 42 billion times the speed of light.

Gas flew a distance 7 times greater than Goku's Instant Transmission range! Of course, it depends on energy, but a weaker Goku can reach New Namek by sensing Namekian fodders, so it's clear how great is the distance Gas flew in merely 20 minutes. Again, as solid as a feat as you can get, minus a stated distance (which would be nice)

Technically speaking Gas flew a distance many times further than his own Instant Transmission range. Goku was not teleporting to the furthest extent of his own range with every instant transmission jump.

 

[Kulf_Boba]

They also forget that the Pride Troopers' ships are capable of traveling from an unknown part of space to the Temple of their God of Destruction in a short amount of time.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Technically speaking Gas flew a distance many times further than his own Instant Transmission range.

Oh ... Well, I might have misunderstood then. I will check the chapter again.

Goku was not teleporting to the furthest extent of his own range with every instant transmission jump.

... Yeah, I didn't use the furthest extent of Goku's Instant Transmission (Intergalactic), I just used a low-end example (Earth to New Namek)

 

[Damage3245]

Oh ... Well, I might have misunderstood then. I will check the chapter again.

... Yeah, I didn't use the furthest extent of Goku's Instant Transmission (Intergalactic), I just used a low-end example (Earth to New Namek)

Ah. I thought you were saying the furthest extent since you said this: "Gas flew a distance 7 times greater than Goku's Instant Transmission range!"

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Ah. I thought you were saying the furthest extent since you said this: "Gas flew a distance 7 times greater than Goku's Instant Transmission range!"

Yeah, I should have worded that better, my apologies.

Any way, I will look into ways of calculating this very solid feat without getting into "Take distance x Goku managed to teleport before, and multiply by 7", which would be minor calc stacking, and obviously unacceptable.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I have read through the thread, and I agree with Charmander's points.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I have read through the thread, and I agree with Charmander's points.

Thank you for your input.

Usually, 2 staffs (Although Ant also seems to be agreeing) is enough for a threat to go through. But we will wait for AKM to give his input.

Thank you.

@AKM sama

What do you think about this? It seems to make sense to me.

How long is a reasonable time to wait, in your opinion?

 

[Antvasima]

AKM told me that he will try to get the time to help us out soon.

 

[Tipper17]

Z has a speed blog, DBS Anime has a speed blog

Could i get the link to those

 

[speedster352]

I agree fra

 

[K_o_Karlyn]

I agree

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama

Your help would still be appreciated here.

 

[AKM sama]

Well, I have skimmed through the thread. I do have a problem with Piccolo's calc since it assumes the ship just instantly reaches top speed in the Earth's atmosphere and ignores acceleration. I don't think it is a solid calc that should be used.

Calculating Jiren's speed to be faster than a spaceship will be much better.

 

[Damage3245]

Well, I have skimmed through the thread. I do have a problem with Piccolo's calc since it assumes the ship just instantly reaches top speed in the Earth's atmosphere and ignores acceleration. I don't think it is a solid calc that should be used.

Calculating Jiren's speed to be faster than a spaceship will be much better.

Very much agreed on that issue.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Well, I have skimmed through the thread. I do have a problem with Piccolo's calc since it assumes the ship just instantly reaches top speed in the Earth's atmosphere and ignores acceleration. I don't think it is a solid calc that should be used.

Oh.
The value is low balled to an extreme, so the value itself should be fine, as the actual speed of the ship is much higher, no?

What did you think about the justification for "near instant" acceleration given in the calc itself? Even this ships follow the principle:
* Energy trail - Lack of Showcased Acceleration - Likely meaning it's a top speed.

Calculating Jiren's speed to be faster than a spaceship will be much better.

You also disagree with Base Vegeta scaling to the value regardless of the points made above to defend it? I see.


Thank you for taking your time to respond

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Well, I have skimmed through the thread. I do have a problem with Piccolo's calc since it assumes the ship just instantly reaches top speed in the Earth's atmosphere and ignores acceleration. I don't think it is a solid calc that should be used.

Calculating Jiren's speed to be faster than a spaceship will be much better.

So,
The blog itself, do you think it's fine to use other than these two points? Your acceptance of the blog would be a huge deal given your skepticism about the use of multipliers with """lack of feats""".

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, AKM. What do you think about Charmander's latest posts?

 

[AKM sama]

The value is low balled to an extreme, so the value itself should be fine, as the actual speed of the ship is much higher, no?

We can't say for certain. It's like taking a guess in the dark. You could say it was only FTL, or MFTL, or MFTL+. Could be anything. It being a manga panel doesn't help, although I doubt anime would have helped much either.

What did you think about the justification for "near instant" acceleration given in the calc itself? Even this ships follow the principle:
* Energy trail - Lack of Showcased Acceleration - Likely meaning it's a top speed.

That's a random conclusion to reach. For all we know, trail starts appearing for ships when they reach FTL speeds and then they continue accelerating. Often the scene is so small that you can't even tell whether any acceleration is taking place or not. We rejected the dragon balls dispersing feat based on the trail argument earlier too.

You also disagree with Base Vegeta scaling to the value regardless of the points made above to defend it? I see.

The spaceship creates a visible sonic boom and Bulma casually reacts to it afterwards. It will be difficult for me to argue this is the same speed shown in the other galaxy scene even if I wanted to.

On the multipliers thing, it will depend on how much higher the end result will be than the best calcable feat.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

We can't say for certain. It's like taking a guess in the dark. You could say it was only FTL, or MFTL, or MFTL+. Could be anything. It being a manga panel doesn't help, although I doubt anime would have helped much either.


That's a random conclusion to reach. For all we know, trail starts appearing for ships when they reach FTL speeds and then they continue accelerating. Often the scene is so small that you can't even tell whether any acceleration is taking place or not. We rejected the dragon balls dispersing feat based on the trail argument earlier too.

Usually when depicted in the anime versions , the acceleration is nearly instant or simply not present at all.
This was true for Kami's ancient ship simply... getting to Jupiter.
Or literally any Saiyan Ship in the Anime version (acting as a counterpart for the manga, not referring to filler scenes). This ship, being at least comparable, should be the same.

Could I argue for a "likely" rating on Piccolo's? Given the rush the guys were in, and the lack of knowledge on how little is the actual acceleration (and the evidence provided)?

The spaceship creates a visible sonic boom and Bulma casually reacts to it afterwards. It will be difficult for me to argue this is the same speed shown in the other galaxy scene even if I wanted to.

Bulma reacting to MFTL+ attacks have been a consistent issue for the past dozen arcs on the show, have it not?
Personally don't think that's a good take.

On the multipliers thing, it will depend on how much higher the end result will be than the best calcable feat.

At 46 billion on Jiren, it halts there because there is no multipliers until the Granolah Arc IIRC.
At best, Gogeta is 50x that value in his Blue Form.

 

[Dalesean027]

Bulma reacting to MFTL+ attacks have been a consistent issue for the past dozen arcs on the show, have it not?
Personally don't think that's a good take.

This but Jaco apparently seeing everything consistently

 

[AKM sama]

Usually when depicted in the anime versions , the acceleration is nearly instant or simply not present at all.

I wouldn't say not present at all. It's depicted as being fast, but that doesn't mean the ship reaches top speed almost instantly. If you take off from Earth's surface, even with a fast acceleration that looks like it's happening instantly, there is no way to tell whether the ship achieved top speed before leaving the atmosphere. Maybe it just reached a speed of 28c. Who knows. Something that can reach 0 to 28c inside the Earth's atmosphere would definitely look like an instantaneous acceleration.

Bulma reacting to MFTL+ attacks have been a consistent issue for the past dozen arcs on the show, have it not?

Yes, which is why I included the fact that the ship created a visible sonic boom, which supports Bulma reacting to it. It doesn't always have to be a PIS.

At 46 billion on Jiren, it halts there because there is no multipliers until the Granolah Arc IIRC.
At best, Gogeta is 50x that value in his Blue Form.

That makes the end result millions of times higher than the best calcable feat. Which is always going to be a problem.

 

[Antvasima]

AKM makes sense to me above.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I wouldn't say not present at all. It's depicted as being fast, but that doesn't mean the ship reaches top speed almost instantly. If you take off from Earth's surface, even with a fast acceleration that looks like it's happening instantly, there is no way to tell whether the ship achieved top speed before leaving the atmosphere. Maybe it just reached a speed of 28c. Who knows. Something that can reach 0 to 28c inside the Earth's atmosphere would definitely look like an instantaneous acceleration.

?
Sorry, but that's just a guessing game imo. "Maybe it's 0 to 28c", "who knows"?

This is a form of media/fiction, if there was acceleration, and if it was a factor that the author, or the animators cared about, it would have been portrayed accordingly. Pointing at unsupported guesses of what could have happened, instead of justing taking what's portrayed as the truth is just, again, playing a guessing game.

We see dozens of ships fly in multiple animated forms of DB media, none of them showcase acceleration, therefore acceleration is not present. It's as simple as that.
Hypothesizing on other possible solutions when those weren't even implied is a terrible take imo...

Yes, which is why I included the fact that the ship created a visible sonic boom, which supports Bulma reacting to it. It doesn't always have to be a PIS.

Isn't a Sonic Boom a common way of showcasing speed?
Plus, Bulma reacting to it is still PIS, the 42.9 billion calc still """showcases""" "instant" acceleration far beyond the speed of light.
Even if acceleration was a factor (which is not), it still should be too fast for a human to react, since that ship can reach MFTL+ speeds faster than Kami's ship could.

I apologize, but this point is moot.

That makes the end result millions of times higher than the best calcable feat. Which is always going to be a problem.

... Pardon?
42.9 billion, not 46* my bad, I got it mixed up.

But that value does not come from the scaling chain, the scaling chain would end at 6 billions. It comes from the ship, which is a calculable speed. Jiren is faster than U11 ships (made for Pride Troopers to get to planets in their universe quickly), therefore he scales to fodder ships such a Freeza's minions.

 

[Damage3245]

Jiren is faster than U11 ships (made for Pride Troopers to get to planets in their universe quickly), therefore he scales to fodder ships such a Freeza's minions.

You realize how baseless this is, right? There are no comparisons at all between U11 ships and Frieza's ships.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

You realize how baseless this is, right? There are no comparisons at all between U11 ships and Frieza's ships.

The universe 11 ships should be superior. They are considered the counter part of the galactic patrol which is an even bigger and more powerful organisation than the freeza force.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

more powerful organisation than the freeza force

no?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

You realize how baseless this is, right? There are no comparisons at all between U11 ships and Frieza's ships.

Not more than assuming an acceleration when there isn't any present.

Freeza's technology is dwarfed by humans. Ships build to travel intergalactic distances in a short time (which is a requirement if you're saving planets in distress/danger) should scale to fodder ships.

 

[AKM sama]

Sorry, but that's just a guessing game imo. "Maybe it's 0 to 28c", "who knows"?

Which is what you're also doing. "Maybe it is at full speed"

This is a form of media/fiction, if there was acceleration, and if it was a factor that the author, or the animators cared about, it would have been portrayed accordingly.

If the ship was at full speed and the authors cared, they would have added a statement and we wouldn't have to assume it.

We see dozens of ships fly in multiple animated forms of DB media, none of them showcase acceleration, therefore acceleration is not present. It's as simple as that.
Hypothesizing on other possible solutions when those weren't even implied is a terrible take imo...

Acceleration is always present. Without acceleration, motion cannot happen. It's just fast and cannot be perceived.

Isn't a Sonic Boom a common way of showcasing speed?

Common way of showcasing hypersonic speed, yes. And Bulma reacting to something like that makes it realistic.

Just use the speed of the spaceship and scale it to Jiren onwards. I don't find myself agreeing to the calcs as they assume the ships are at full speed in the atmosphere out of nowhere. I don't have a problem assuming that U11 is technologically equal if not more advanced than U7. So their ships should be faster.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Which is what you're also doing. "Maybe it is at full speed"


If the ship was at full speed and the authors cared, they would have added a statement and we wouldn't have to assume it.

In Piccolo's case, It should be, because they were trying to flee as fast as they could, plus, the distance they crossed to get the value is being low balled to an immense extreme, so scaling Piccolo to the value given how fast acceleration is depicted should be fair.

Just use the speed of the spaceship and scale it to Jiren onwards. I don't find myself agreeing to the calcs as they assume the ships are at full speed in the atmosphere out of nowhere. I don't have a problem assuming that U11 is technologically equal if not more advanced than U7. So their ships should be faster.

All right, I will concede.

But

I don't find myself agreeing to the calcs as they assume the ships are at full speed in the atmosphere.

The calcs don't assume that. You don't agree with the scaling.

 

[AKM sama]

In Piccolo's case, It should be, because they were trying to flee as fast as they could, plus, the distance they crossed to get the value is being low balled to an immense extreme, so scaling Piccolo to the value given how fast acceleration is depicted should be fair.

I mean, my vehicle doesn't reach top speed right off the bat no matter the hurry I am in. It's not exactly in their hands, right. They just started their journey. If they were in outer space, I wouldn't have any problem with assuming full speed.

The calcs don't assume that. You don't agree with the scaling.

Don't they? Both Piccolo's and Vegeta's did. Jiren's case is fine. How will the entire scaling chain look if we applied the top result of the spaceship we know to Jiren's speed? Since not many characters scale above him, I believe digesting those numbers would be much easier.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I mean, my vehicle doesn't reach top speed right off the bat no matter the hurry I am in. It's not exactly in their hands, right. They just started their journey. If they were in outer space, I wouldn't have any problem with assuming full speed.

We also have to consider that DB consistently depict ships as, "energy trail and go", a rather simplistic approach.
It is depicted that they were trying to rush,
It is depicted that ships, even ancient ones, accelerate to top speed at a rate so fast we literally cannot tell from the animation, or the panels, possibly because it doesn't really matter to the writter or animators.
And to top it all off, we are also scaling to a value that's extremely below what the ship should be capable of. (There are some indications that they were coming from another galaxy, yet, I only used the minimum 4.2ly distance).

In my personal opinion, Piccolo scaling to 36051c is plausible enough. But could we agree on a likely, or possibly scaling, then?

Don't they? Both Piccolo's and Vegeta's did.

Nah. The calcs, as in, the math, only used the distance, and a timeframe.

The sections explaining why said characters scale to the calculated values aren't part of the calc itself.

Jiren's case is fine. How will the entire scaling chain look if we applied the top result of the spaceship we know to Jiren's speed? Since not many characters scale above him, I believe digesting those numbers would be much easier.

At the of the Black Arc, SSJB characters are placed at "far faster than 6 billion times lightspeed", then, in the TOP arc, Jiren, and MUI level characters are 42.9 billions times c'

After that, characters are "far faster than 42.9 billion"

Gas has his space feat, which can lead to results in the trillions, or quadrillions depending on the method, but as of now, he is far faster than 42.9 billion.

Still, god tiers such as Whis, Beerus, and SSJB fusions scale 50x higher than that as SSJ Gogeta scales to SSJ Broly, IIRC. Beerus and Whis can scale above Gas' calc when it's done.

 

[Spinoirr]

Did this ever end

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama @UchihaSlayer96 @Damage3245

What do you think that we should do here?

 

[Damage3245]

IMO remove the scaling of Piccolo and Vegeta to the ship calcs for the reasons AKM has posted above, and scale Jiren to the calc for Frieza's ship as a "Likely".

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

What do you think, @DarkDragonMedeus ?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm unsure but I suppose it's alright.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I can agree with Vegeta's. But I insist on Piccolo's as a "likely".

Jiren shouldn't be a likely, Freeza's technology isn't that impressive.

 

[Damage3245]

I can agree with Vegeta's. But I insist on Piccolo's as a "likely".

Jiren shouldn't be a likely, Freeza's technology isn't that impressive.

Freiza's technology isn't implied to be the standard either, especially across different Universes.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Freiza's technology isn't implied to be the standard either, especially across different Universes.

Human materials are capable of making better stuff, and we have the most common components in the universe.

The Pride Troopers are universal heroes in a higher rated universe, saying they're comparable to Freeza's tech is honestly just plausible.