DBS Manga Speed Scaling (BETTER!!)

[Damage3245]

The ship also doesn't show even the slightest sign of speeding up between this frame and the chi blast hitting it (which takes about 2 seconds in this cinematic)

If you don't expect the ship of the speed to be depicted accurately in the first place, why would you expect the acceleration to be?

Also, that glow you're talking about isn't shown when the ship is actually flying at high speed through the sky (after it rises vertically into the air). I don't know why you include that it having a different thruster appearance when Vegeta shoots it down is a sign that it is travelling at MFTL+ speeds.

It doesn't bear a resemblance to the effect that Frieza's ship has in the earlier clip.

The minions, however, were desperate to flee as fast as they could. Meaning they're trying their best to reach the best speed their ship could.

Them intending to flee quickly is not proof of the ship's speed being that fast when Vegeta shot them down.

 

[Damage3245]

I just think that these feats are really sketchy ways to try and upgrade Dragon Ball's speed. I know that the verse isn't exactly one steeped in logic to begin with, but look at this feat for Piccolo shooting down the ship: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:GodlyCharmander/Manga_Piccolo_is_kinda_fast

We assume that the ship instantly boosted itself up to 35061 times the speed of light, and Piccolo shot it down with a Ki blast... so did that Ki blast somehow completely negate the ship's momentum? At that speed, even if Piccolo's explosion killed the engines did and stopped any additional power being put into its flight, it should have easily still had enough velocity to leave orbit.

Instead it crash-landed on the planet.

This logical issue becomes less of an issue if in the moment Piccolo shot them down they weren't actually travelling as fast as we assume them to be flying.

I'm of the opinion that these "Characters shooting down ships we assume to be MFTL+" feats should be discarded for not making any logical sense.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

If you don't expect the ship of the speed to be depicted accurately in the first place, why would you expect the acceleration to be?

Acceleration is never depicted in Dragon Ball.

Also, that glow you're talking about isn't shown when the ship is actually flying at high speed through the sky (after it rises vertically into the air).

? Yeah, I mentioned that. The initial movement didn't have that, but while Vegeta reacts to it, they've boosted with their energy already, we see it clearly in the clip, you can check.

I don't know why you include that it having a different thruster appearance when Vegeta shoots it down is a sign that it is travelling at MFTL+ speeds.

... Huh? I'm saying it was already being boosted by energy. If it's leaving a trail of energy behind, it means it's already past the phase where they charge and burst.

Also, it's very clearly the same effect as the Freeza's minion ship, it's just in much lower quality. Why would they use ANOTHER energy booster? And a worse one by what you're implying.

It doesn't bear a resemblance to the effect that Frieza's ship has in the earlier clip.

I'm sorry, I don't think that's even possible, it is literally the only energy booster their ship have shown to have.

The process of reaching the calculated speed is:
Charging the booster > Bursting it > Leaving a trail behind.

The minion's ship were already leaving the trail behind. I have yet to see a particular reasoning why they wouldn't be at max speed since I already more-than-satisfied my burden of proof.
I particularly believe that saying, "It doesn't look like it" (implying there is another booster, and implying it would be inferior to the standard one, otherwise the argument doesn't work) is a counter to the evidence provided...

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I just think that these feats are really sketchy ways to try and upgrade Dragon Ball's speed. I know that the verse isn't exactly one steeped in logic to begin with, but look at this feat for Piccolo shooting down the ship: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:GodlyCharmander/Manga_Piccolo_is_kinda_fast

We assume that the ship instantly boosted itself up to 35061 times the speed of light, and Piccolo shot it down with a Ki blast...

The examples of the calc prove that it was the case.
It was agreed in a thread that it was the case.
It takes one panel for them to reach top speed, EVERY time

Piccolo reacted to it, then shoot it down. No reason why it would take less than one panel this time. Sorry, but pointing out a manga feat where the ships are constantly instant and there isn't a timeframe to discuss is just a terrible choice.

so did that Ki blast somehow completely negate the ship's momentum? At that speed, even if Piccolo's explosion killed the engines did and stopped any additional power being put into its flight, it should have easily still had enough velocity to leave orbit.
This logical issue becomes less of an issue if in the moment Piccolo shot them down they weren't actually travelling as fast as we assume them to be flying.

Oh hell no, Damage.
You know well that Dragon Ball, or a lot of shows, couldn't care less about this type of logic in the first place, you even say it yourself. Characters capable of flying at MFTL+ speed can be knocked down, and they'll lose speed instantly, this happened multiple times with the likes of Dyspo, in the Anime, or Jiren, in the manga. Despite both of them being confirmed, verbatim, that they're faster than light, or FTL ships in their flight speed.

This is by far the worst point yet, you're limiting the capabilities based on the fact they're not following real life logic.

Limiting fiction because of real life is where you drawn the line, and for me, it is unacceptable. Of course we need at least common sense, but momentum isn't usually taken seriously.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Even if vegeta shooting down the ship isn't accepted, jiren still scales for flying faster than space ships casually.

 

[Damage3245]

The process of reaching the calculated speed is:
Charging the booster > Bursting it > Leaving a trail behind.

The minion's ship were already leaving the trail behind. I have yet to see a particular reasoning why they wouldn't be at max speed since I already more-than-satisfied my burden of proof.
I particularly believe that saying, "It doesn't look like it" (implying there is another booster, and implying it would be inferior to the standard one, otherwise the argument doesn't work) is a counter to the evidence provided...

Only if you assume that trail appears whenever that ship is flying at that speed, and that it doesn't appear if they're ever flying slower than that speed.

It was agreed in a thread that it was the case.
It takes one panel for them to reach top speed, EVERY time

One panel isn't a timeframe, and whether it was agreed in that thread or not doesn't matter to me.

Piccolo reacted to it, then shoot it down. No reason why it would take less than one panel this time. Sorry, but pointing out a manga feat where the ships are constantly instant and there isn't a timeframe to discuss is just a terrible choice.

You keep saying "instant" when what you mean is just "fast".

You know well that Dragon Ball, or a lot of shows, couldn't care less about this type of logic in the first place, you even say it yourself. Characters capable of flying at MFTL+ speed can be knocked down, and they'll lose speed instantly, this happened multiple times with the likes of Dyspo, in the Anime, or Jiren, in the manga. Despite both of them being confirmed, verbatim, that they're faster than light, or FTL ships in their flight speed.

If we're just throwing out the logic altogether, why should we make the "logical assumption" that they were flying as fast as these ships are depicted to do elsewhere?

If logic doesn't matter then the ship could have been flying at Massively Hypersonic speeds in that scene for all we know.

Limiting fiction because of real life is where you drawn the line, and for me, it is unacceptable. Of course we need at least common sense, but momentum isn't usually taken seriously.

We need common sense? Really? Because I'm not seeing any of that at all for these feats.

It just looks like any excuse is being taken to scale these characters to speeds they don't actually display themselves.

A spaceship has been calced to fly at 42 billion times the speed of light? Clearly this other spaceship flying in a different scene must have been that fast. How do we know it was that fast? Because it just was.

Sorry, but I can't really bring myself to agree with that.

 

[Antvasima]

Charmander does seem to make a few valid points above. What do you think, Medeus?

 

[Damage3245]

Charmander does seem to make a few valid points above. What do you think, Medeus?

If Medeus thinks it is fine, then I'll concede to the feats being valid for a "Likely" rating because ultimately these are not very solid calcs which depend on us assuming a great deal more than for a typical calc.

(It'd be different for example if we had calced the speed of the ship in the same scene where Vegeta shot it down as opposed to a different spaceship).

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, that is true.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Only if you assume that trail appears whenever that ship is flying at that speed, and that it doesn't appear if they're ever flying slower than that speed.

... Yes.

It is exactly that.

If the energy trail is present. X speed has been achieved.
Why? Because there is no acceleration afterwards. Pointing again at Freeza's ships.
In this case, X speed is the ship's maximum speed because they are trying to get away, and it would be a stupid decision to lock your speed in a lower setting than it's capable of.

Nothing about what I said isn't backed up by clips, and showcases of said instant acceleration in the Manga (and Anime)

One panel isn't a timeframe, and whether it was agreed in that thread or not doesn't matter to me.

Interpretation.
You're capable of that, I am sure.
If something is consistently portrayed to happen in an instant
why would that not be the case for a particular instance? If it has not been suggested to be different in any way.

You keep saying "instant" when what you mean is just "fast".

It is "instant". The term can be used as "really fast" as well, I dunno why you're nitpicking this.

If we're just throwing out the logic altogether, why should we make the "logical assumption" that they were flying as fast as these ships are depicted to do elsewhere?

If logic doesn't matter then the ship could have been flying at Massively Hypersonic speeds in that scene for all we know.

I never said
"Logic doesn't matter",
I said
"Logic isn't a limiting aspect"

We use logic to describe fiction, not to limit it. The only thing we actually "limit", is the application of logic itself.
"Well, we can't use real life lightspeed for this laser because it does fictional things, and might have fictional speed as well", etc, etc.

Obviously this doesn't apply here. You're saying "We can't have a ship going at this unrealistic speed because it did something unrealistic".

This doesn't work.

We need common sense? Really? Because I'm not seeing any of that at all for these feats.

It just looks like any excuse is being taken to scale these characters to speeds they don't actually display themselves.

Yes, common sense.
When was the last time that DB, where every ship is at least relative to the speed of light, minimum, has cared about momentum?

Common sense, as in.

• If this fictional universe has unrealistic acceleration, it can have unrealistic deceleration as well.

Is that so absurd? Truly absurd, Damage?
Well, I do not think so. Momentum was never a factor for Dragon Ball either. Ships that go from 0 to FTL then to 0 again in a blink of an eye.
Characters flying at ABSURD speeds them getting hit by something and coming to a sudden stop.
This isn't exclusive to DB either, in a lot of shows, MHS+ characters can just come to a sudden stop when intercepted by something else.

Sorry, but I cannot see your point, at all.

A spaceship has been calced to fly at 42 billion times the speed of light? Clearly this other spaceship flying in a different scene must have been that fast. How do we know it was that fast? Because it just was.

Huh? I gave you PLENTY of reasons to say that the minion's ships are capable of flying as fast as... well, the other minions ships.
I more than satisfied the burden of proof, so telling everyone "Well, you're just saying that" is really unfair to my argument, Damage.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

If Medeus thinks it is fine, then I'll concede to the feats being valid for a "Likely" rating because ultimately these are not very solid calcs which depend on us assuming a great deal more than for a typical calc.

That isn't true at all.
There isn't a singular assumption in the calc.
"They're going at top speed",
backed up by their attempt to flee as fast as possible.
"They're capable of flying at MFTL+",
Proven literally in the same clip, models from minions capable of keeping up with Freeza's main ship.
"They've reached top speed by time Vegeta reacted"
Backed up by the energy trail, and lack of further acceleration once it's there.


Zero assumptions.
I have to disagree with you,
I am vouching for a full rating, and if DDM agrees with this, I will keep insisting on it.

(It'd be different for example if we had calced the speed of the ship in the same scene where Vegeta shot it down as opposed to a different spaceship).

It isn't a different spaceship.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Charmander does seem to make a few valid points above. What do you think, Medeus?

If you could tag him, I would appreciate it.

His input is really what matters the most atm, because my debate with Damage became a back and forth of explaining our already established points to each other again, and again, without anything new.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think Charmander is making more sense here too.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I think Charmander is making more sense here too.

Huh. Well, based on Damage's earlier response, a "likely" rating is, at least, agreed on.

Of course, I will still "vote" for a full rating as I find the evidence solid enough for that. (The feat is also simple in nature, we just have a problem with the value it gives).
Thank you for your input.

 

[Kulf_Boba]

Hi. This will be short.

Z has a speed blog, DBS Anime has a speed blog, thus, I made a DBS Manga speed blog, with the proper multipliers and feats here.

I know we shouldn't apply multipliers past 1080c, but thanks to Piccolo's very casual 35061c feat, it should be good to go. Also, lack of feats are not an argument, as Jiren, and Gas can both outperform current spaceships, which are far beyond MFTL+ (as shown in the Broly Movie).

What are your thoughts on the scaling? Any suggestions? Protests? Modifications? Or do you just agree with it?

Regardless, Gas will likely have a calculation that will put him around that value.

Ssj Blue multiplies by 50 the Ssj God?

 

[Kulf_Boba]

I think you can calculate the acceleration of the ships when they travel to the Milky Way, since you can see that the ships don't fly at MFTL+ speeds one second after taking off.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I think you can calculate the acceleration of the ships when they travel to the Milky Way, since you can see that the ships don't fly at MFTL+ speeds one second after taking off.

We don't know that. They show zero difference in speed, or acceleration (which would be extremely rapid to cross nearly 95000 light years in 75 seconds).
Another proof that Dragon Ball does not present, or even acknowledges acceleration in these alien ships.

But that is not really a point, as I have provided evidence that the acceleration occurs in an instant in the Manga, from any ship, including ancient models such as Kami's ship.

 

[Damage3245]

Zero assumptions.
I have to disagree with you,

I think you and I clearly have different ideas about what counts as an assumption.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I think you and I clearly have different ideas about what counts as an assumption.

An assumption is hypothesize a reality based on evidence that doesn't necessarily point towards said reality, or no evidence at all.

I honestly believe I am not commiting any of these.

Now, regarding DDM's response, you still disagree with the rating at all, or are you fine with "likely"?

 

[Damage3245]

An assumption is hypothesize a reality based on evidence that doesn't necessarily point towards said reality, or no evidence at all.

I honestly believe I am not commiting any of these.

Now, regarding DDM's response, you still disagree with the rating at all, or are you fine with "likely"?

I'm fine with "Likely" as I said. For Piccolo's & Vegeta's feats at least.

I'm not saying those calcs have zero basis in reality, but that there's a lot going on in them that makes it difficult for me to accept them as solid ratings.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I'm fine with "Likely" as I said. For Piccolo's & Vegeta's feats at least.

I'm not saying those calcs have zero basis in reality, but that there's a lot going on in them that makes it difficult for me to accept them as solid ratings.

It is okay Damage, I do not believe you're coming from a place of dishonesty.

Thank you for your input, and for elaborating your thoughts on this thread, without you and Ant, it was probably going to be left behind. I believe we just have different standards on what qualifies for a solid rating, and that's okay.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I will gather the general "consensus"

Agree: 7 (@DarkDragonMedeus, @Gilad_Hyperstar, @Quantu, @God900, @FluffyCreatureZ, @Dalesean027, @UchihaSlayer96)

Neutral: 1 (@Damage3245 [Is fine with Likely on some feats])

Well, AKM's input would be nice, but he's been busy lately. I will probably try to contact UchihaSlayer, and some other staff supporters via their message walls

 

[Dalesean027]

I will gather the general "consensus"

Agree: 5 (@DarkDragonMedeus, @Gilad_Hyperstar, @Quantu, @God900, @FluffyCreatureZ)

Neutral: 1 (@Damage3245 [Is fine with Likely on some feats])

Well, AKM's input would be nice, but he's been busy lately. I will probably try to contact UchihaSlayer, and some other staff supporters via their message walls

Been following this as well and I'd say you can also put me down on agree though it won't count towards a final verdict really

 

[Antvasima]

I think Charmander is making more sense here too.

He makes sense to me as well. My apologies, Damage.

However, how exactly will the speed levels be changed based on this?

 

[Damage3245]

He makes sense to me as well. My apologies, Damage.

However, how exactly will the speed levels be changed based on this?

There's a speed scaling blog here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:GodlyCharmander/DBS_Manga_Speed_scaling

 

[Antvasima]

Also, should I call for AKM, so he can take a look after he comes back from his real life responsibilities? He might get displeased with me otherwise.

 

[Antvasima]

There's a speed scaling blog here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:GodlyCharmander/DBS_Manga_Speed_scaling

Thank you. I will check.

 

[Damage3245]

Also, should I call for AKM, so he can take a look after he comes back from his real life responsibilities? He might get displeased with me otherwise.

There's no rush for this CRT, so we can wait for AKM's input.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will call for him, but can somebody first explain why the blog scales from both the manga and anime speed feats please? We keep the continuities separate as far as I am aware.

 

[Damage3245]

Okay. I will call for him, but can somebody first explain why the blog scales from both the manga and anime speed feats please? We keep the continuities separate as far as I am aware.

That's a good point. I'd forgotten about that.

 

[StekFence]

Yo so who’s piloting the ship, wouldn’t this scale to them too?

 

[Kulf_Boba]

We don't know that. They show zero difference in speed, or acceleration (which would be extremely rapid to cross nearly 95000 light years in 75 seconds).
Another proof that Dragon Ball does not present, or even acknowledges acceleration in these alien ships.

But that is not really a point, as I have provided evidence that the acceleration occurs in an instant in the Manga, from any ship, including ancient models such as Kami's ship.

In the same scene you can see that the ship is accelerating, also I don't know where they get that in the manga the ships are represented with an instantaneous acceleration, in the manga you can see that the ships managed to leave the planets quickly, but not there is a time lag so it could happen in a second (which would not be MFTL+) or in 0.0000000000001.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Okay. I will call for him, but can somebody first explain why the blog scales from both the manga and anime speed feats please? We keep the continuities separate as far as I am aware.

If you mean the broly movie, it is canon to the manga.

That's the only piece of anime used in the blog.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that is probably fine then.

 

[Antvasima]

@GodlyCharmander

Would you be willing to properly explain all of your point in an easy to understand manner in a single post, so I can show it to AKM, please?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

@GodlyCharmander

Would you be willing to properly explain all of your point in an easy to understand manner in a single post, so I can show it to AKM, please?

Yes.


Basically, it was decided in a thread that no multipliers could be done after 1080c due to the lack of feats. But recently, some Massively FTL+ beyond 10000c and 40 billion c calculations were made for Dragon Ball Super (Mangá), which highly support the use of multipliers once again, much like it's Anime counterpart. Because of that, I made a Speed Scaling Chain for Chou, just like Z, and Super Anime has one.

The first accepted feat was Piccolo reacting to a ship quite casually, giving off a result of 35062c, which is extremely low balled due to the distance used (which is probably not a hundredth of what it actually was). This is a great supporting feat for DBS Goku, as Piccolo did not progress in any significant way during U6 through Moro Arc.

Thus, as Base Goku from Z scales to 1080c, this supporting feat allowed for SSJ Goku, from Super, to multiply this value by 50x (54000c), and so on.

The scaling chain goes all the way to 6 billion times faster than light by the time we finish the Black Arc. Which obviously would fit in the "too high of a value, too little feats", but luckily, in the Broly Movie, whose events occurred in both media, Base Form Vegeta was capable of reacting to a ship calculated at 42 billion times the speed of light, further solidifying the chain.
Even if you disagree with that, Jiren was stated to be faster than a spaceship, which would include the inferior ships of Freeza's minions, again, solidifying the chain.

Furthermore, the chain ends at Gas, at 107 trillions times the speed of light. Gas obviously has the recent feat of crossing space in 20 minutes, which has potential to surpass this value by a long shot.

 

[StekFence]

I’m just saying that since the ships don’t decelerate or accelerate much apparently, that the pilots should have reactions at this level no?

 

[Antvasima]

Basically, it was decided in a thread that no multipliers could be done after 1080c due to the lack of feats. But recently, some Massively FTL+ beyond 10000c and 40 billion c calculations were made for Dragon Ball Super (Mangá), which highly support the use of multipliers once again, much like it's Anime counterpart. Because of that, I made a Speed Scaling Chain for Chou, just like Z, and Super Anime has one.

The first accepted feat was Piccolo reacting to a ship quite casually, giving off a result of 35062c, which is extremely low balled due to the distance used (which is probably not a hundredth of what it actually was). This is a great supporting feat for DBS Goku, as Piccolo did not progress in any significant way during U6 through Moro Arc.

Thus, as Base Goku from Z scales to 1080c, this supporting feat allowed for SSJ Goku, from Super, to multiply this value by 50x (54000c), and so on.

The scaling chain goes all the way to 6 billion times faster than light by the time we finish the Black Arc. Which obviously would fit in the "too high of a value, too little feats", but luckily, in the Broly Movie, whose events occurred in both media, Base Form Vegeta was capable of reacting to a ship calculated at 42 billion times the speed of light, further solidifying the chain.
Even if you disagree with that, Jiren was stated to be faster than a spaceship, which would include the inferior ships of Freeza's minions, again, solidifying the chain.

Furthermore, the chain ends at Gas, at 107 trillions times the speed of light. Gas obviously has the recent feat of crossing space in 20 minutes, which has potential to surpass this value by a long shot.

Thank you.

@AKM sama

What do you think about this? It seems to make sense to me.

 

[Damage3245]

It seems to me that the only supporting feats for these two "shooting down a spaceship as it takes off" calcs is Gas flying through interstellar space and Jiren flying faster than an unseen spaceship. The cast themselves are pretty lacking in actual feats or statements besides that.

 

[Antvasima]

Those are pretty good supporting feats though.