DBS Manga Speed Scaling (BETTER!!)

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I suppose this is fine

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the reply.

What do you think, @AKM sama ?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I don't think we can scale FPSSJ Broly to SSB Gogeta, as he couldn't even touch him in the movie, and Gogeta didn't even showed a hint of his full power while toying with Broly

Also, V-Jump also confirms Vegito Blue scales to Beerus in the manga, further supporting Shin's statement. As Gogeta should be around the same level (although not necessarily equal) to Vegito, this further support Broly not scaling to either Vegito or Gogeta

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I don't think we can scale FPSSJ Broly to SSB Gogeta, as he couldn't even touch him in the movie, and Gogeta didn't even showed a hint of his full power while toying with Broly

Also, V-Jump also confirms Vegito Blue scales to Beerus in the manga, further supporting Shin's statement. As Gogeta should be around the same level (although not necessarily equal) to Vegito, this further support Broly not scaling to either Vegito or Gogeta

Ayo, ain't Gogeta much stronger than Vegirot due to being a fusion of stronger Goku and Vegeta

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Ayo, ain't Gogeta much stronger than Vegirot due to being a fusion of stronger Goku and Vegeta

Probably, but the potara is also stated to be stronger than the fusion dance in the manga, and since unlike the anime the cast didn't really increased in power all that much between the Black Saga and Broly Saga, then we can't really know for sure

 

[Damage3245]

@DarkDragonMedeus

What do you think about this?

I don't see a good reason for that ship on the Earth to be traveling at 42 billion times the speed of light when Vegeta shot it down.

Spaceships flying that first at a different point in time isn't exactly proof that is their default speed.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I don't see a good reason for that ship on the Earth to be traveling at 42 billion times the speed of light when Vegeta shot it down.

Since Jiren was stated to be faster than a spaceship, would it be fine for him to scale to 42.9 billion directly?

Spaceships flying that first at a different point in time isn't exactly proof that is their default speed.

They were literally trying to run away as fast as possible. It is very plausible that the ship on Earth went beyond the calculated speed, and obviously we have the whole "instantly accelerating" topic which we discussed previously.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Even the original manga had Bulma's ship, which was far less advanced then Frieza Force ships accelerate instantly and travel to Jupiter in one frame

Frieza's ship also accelerated instantly when it traveled to Earth, so yeah, instant acceleration is certainly possible. Even the ship that Vegeta damaged was already moving to escape as fast as possible to escape from them

 

[Antvasima]

Since Jiren was stated to be faster than a spaceship, would it be fine for him to scale to 42.9 billion directly?

They were literally trying to run away as fast as possible. It is very plausible that the ship on Earth went beyond the calculated speed, and obviously we have the whole "instantly accelerating" topic which we discussed previously.

Even the original manga had Bulma's ship, which was far less advanced then Frieza Force ships accelerate instantly and travel to Jupiter in one frame

Frieza's ship also accelerated instantly when it traveled to Earth, so yeah, instant acceleration is certainly possible. Even the ship that Vegeta damaged was already moving to escape as fast as possible to escape from them

@Damage3245

What do you think about this?

 

[Damage3245]

@Damage3245

What do you think about this?

I think I'm just seeing this from a very different perspective too the users here.

It seems weird to me that for the scene where Vegeta actually intercepts the spaceship, they do not calculate the ship's speed. It seems possible to do.

Instead they calculate the speed of the spaceship from an unrelated scene.

I can only assume the major reason why the first option is not pursued is because it would not result in a substantial upgrade.

 

[Antvasima]

Damage seems to make sense to me above. Can somebody link to the scene where Vegeta intercepts the spaceship, to make it easier to evaluate, please?

 

[Damage3245]

Damage seems to make sense to me above. Can somebody link to the scene where Vegeta intercepts the spaceship, to make it easier to evaluate, please?

Here is the link. The feat occurs 45 seconds in.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. I agree that it seems uncertain if the ship had instantly accelerated to maximum speed inside of a planetary atmosphere.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

As I already said, even the original manga had the ships instantly accelerating to top speeds, including ships much more primitive than Frieza Force ships such as Bulma's ship and even the Saiyan Pods.

Frieza's ship too accelerated instantly to Earth and was traveling at constant speed pretty much instantly, since as several people seem to have forgotten, acceleration means the rate that speed changes (A = V/T). Considering we see them reach top speed and maintaining constant speed (even in the feat), that support the point of them accelerating instantly

There's no reason to suddenly assume the same doesn't apply just because a staff member said so, when all evidence clearly show that these ships can and do reach top speed pretty much instantly (and considering Bulma flew the ship from Earth, being in the planet's atmosphere doesn't matter, especially when there's no risk of colliding with the surface as it is going away)

 

[Damage3245]

As I already said, even the original manga had the ships instantly accelerating to top speeds, including ships much more primitive than Frieza Force ships such as Bulma's ship and even the Saiyan Pods.

I presume then the reason you do not wish to calc the speed of the ship during the scene with Vegeta intercepting it is because you assume the speed of the ship is not being portrayed accurately? [Due to your initial assumption that in Dragon Ball all ships accelerate instantly, and do so every single time]

If that is the case, why should we assume the speed of the ships to be accurate elsewhere in the film like when you calc them to be 42 billion times the speed of light?

Also, doesn't it seem strange to you that Bulma - a fairly ordinary character without anywhere close to the speed of Vegeta or Goku - was able to react to this ship taking flight?


It just seems to me that your evidence for this ship travelling 42 billion times the speed of light when Vegeta shoots it down is "Other spaceships travelled this fast in unrelated scenes".

I don't think that's particularly convincing.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I think I'm just seeing this from a very different perspective too the users here.

It seems weird to me that for the scene where Vegeta actually intercepts the spaceship, they do not calculate the ship's speed. It seems possible to do.

Instead they calculate the speed of the spaceship from an unrelated scene.

I can only assume the major reason why the first option is not pursued is because it would not result in a substantial upgrade.

Thank you. I agree that it seems uncertain if the ship had instantly accelerated to maximum speed inside of a planetary atmosphere.

Well, I can provide the evidence that the atmosphere doesn't really interfere with the instantaneous acceleration.
But both the instantaneous max speed, and how fast the ships are capable of flying are proven in the calc itself.

But I believe Damage has a valid concern, "why don't you just calculate the speed of the ship then, and not before?"
Yeah, that makes sense. But the first scene proves that the ship is capable of flying at such speeds, the minions included, and the second one...

Well, it would be actually impossible to portray that level of speed in a tangible way in such a short distances. If the speed was portrayed in an accurate way (which is never the case with most shounen), it would take place is 0.0000...1s. That's not feasible at all! Why would they animate it like that, it has to be done so the audience can understand what happened. I don't know if cinematic timeframe is the term here, but it's something along these lines.


The same can be said about scaling people to certain attack's speed. For example, what we literally do with Piccolo.

We see a Chi Blast reaching Relativistic+ speeds in a scene, and earlier, we saw Raditz dodge a technique much more power (and faster according to Piccolo). Thus, we scale Raditz to Rel+.
It wouldn't make any sense to say "why don't you calculate the speed of the attack, then?", because Makankosappo obviously wasn't portrayed as Rel+ despite being faster than a Rel+ regular blast, for the sake of cinematics, and for the audience.

I believe the same applies here. Does my point make sense?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Using that speed would barely make the ship Supersonic at best, which is not even close to the speed you need to travel away from the earth if you assume it all happened in real time

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I presume then the reason you do not wish to calc the speed of the ship during the scene with Vegeta intercepting it is because you assume the speed of the ship is not being portrayed accurately? [Due to your initial assumption that in Dragon Ball all ships accelerate instantly, and do so every single time]

If that is the case, why should we assume the speed of the ships to be accurate elsewhere in the film like when you calc them to be 42 billion times the speed of light?

Also, doesn't it seem strange to you that Bulma - a fairly ordinary character without anywhere close to the speed of Vegeta or Goku - was able to react to this ship taking flight?

This is a very consistent mistake on Dragon Ball, actually.
Bulma reacted to MFTL+ attacks and characters more than once. Same with Mr. Satan.

It just seems to me that your evidence for this ship travelling 42 billion times the speed of light when Vegeta shoots it down is "Other spaceships travelled this fast in unrelated scenes".

I don't think that's particularly convincing.

I mean, I don't think that logic flies here at all.

We see a character, or a thing moving at X speed, then that thing isn't portrayed properly.
Does that invalidate it's initial speed? Of course not.

Lower speed (IN ANIMATION) is often used for things that have demonstrated MFTL+ speeds in the past.
The lower demonstrations are necessarily "inaccurate" showcases of a thing's speed, they exists so we can follow the events.
The higher demonstrations? They have no reason to be inaccurate at all, unless they're explicitly an outlier, which doesn't apply here.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Also cinematic timing exists for a reason, much like how you can't necessarily use the timeframe of a video to calculate a feat, you also can't assume with no evidence that the ship is only traveling at Supersonic speeds (which is well below the speed require to escape to Space), despite ships like that one being shown before to move at MFTL+ speeds

 

[Damage3245]

We see a character, or a thing moving at X speed, then that thing isn't portrayed properly.
Does that invalidate it's initial speed? Of course not.

Speed isn't necessarily consistent for characters between all scenes. That's one of the reasons why if we do get a calced speed for a character, we can't use that as the basis of another calc for a different, unrelated scene.

For example, Character A dodges a bullet and gets X speed.

We can't then say "Character B dodged Character A's punch in another scene" and calc Character B's speed using our calced X speed.

In this case, we're not calcing Vegeta's speed but we're sort of just skipping that step entirely by trying to scale him directly to the spaceship. The spaceship that is not demonstrating MFTL+ speed in this scene but we're assuming that since it is capable of that, it must be reaching that speeds...

Just doesn't seem like a strong basis to me.

Also cinematic timing exists for a reason, much like how you can't necessarily use the timeframe of a video to calculate a feat, you also can't assume with no evidence that the ship is only traveling at Supersonic speeds (which is well below the speed require to escape to Space), despite ships like that one being shown before to move at MFTL+ speeds

Where does the timeframe come from in the first place for the ships being 42 billion times the speed of light?

Is it the total length of the video linked in the beginning of the calc? Because that seems to me to fall under Cinematic Timing as well considering it cuts between scenes and assumes the entire thing is happening only real time.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

In this case, we're not calcing Vegeta's speed but we're sort of just skipping that step entirely by trying to scale him directly to the spaceship. The spaceship that is not demonstrating MFTL+ speed in this scene but we're assuming that since it is capable of that, it must be reaching that speeds...

You still didn't showed evidence to why it wouldn't when in context, these two aliens were trying to escape from Earth as fast as possible and since the ships in DB can easily reach MFTL+ speeds (even primitive ships such as Bulma's ship), there's no reason to assume it did

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Where does the timeframe come from in the first place for the ships being 42 billion times the speed of light?

Is it the total length of the video linked in the beginning of the calc? Because that seems to me to fall under Cinematic Timing as well considering it cuts between scenes and assumes the entire thing is happening only real time.

Look again, since even when not cut, the ship reaches at least very close to the Milky Way Galaxy in like 3 seconds before it cuts to Goku and Vegeta on Earth
Guess you can't argue now about cuts can't you?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Speed isn't necessarily consistent for characters between all scenes. That's one of the reasons why if we do get a calced speed for a character, we can't use that as the basis of another calc for a different, unrelated scene.

For example, Character A dodges a bullet and gets X speed.

We can't then say "Character B dodged Character A's punch in another scene" and calc Character B's speed using our calced X speed.

Except we can.
It depends on the context.

The example being not very reliable doesn't help either.
If you dodge a bullet at X speed, that doesn't mean that's your combat speed.

The ship's speed isn't variable between Combat, and Reaction, so the example doesn't work.

A better one is.
"Character A can cut a bullet with their sword at X speed.
Character B can casually dodge said sword being swung by Character A, so he should be comparable to X speed."
That's valid.

In this case, we're not calcing Vegeta's speed but we're sort of just skipping that step entirely by trying to scale him directly to the spaceship.

Yeah, because that is unnecessary. The lower demonstrations in speed of things capable of going billions of times faster are the most consistent aspect of animation. Fights at MFTL speeds in DB are always portrayed at subsonic speed at best, we shouldn't discard their actual speed because of lack of demonstration in a scene where that would be impossible.

The spaceship that is not demonstrating MFTL+ speed in this scene but we're assuming that since it is capable of that, it must be reaching that speeds...

We know a few things:

• The ship can reach MFTL+ speeds
• The ship can reach it's maximum speed in an instant
• The minions were trying to flee as fast as they could.

Those aren't assumptions, it's a pretty solid basis to say that the ship was going at the speed the ship was shown to be capable of reaching, despite the demonstration being outlier-ishly low. (even comparing to ancient old ships, the demonstration in the scene is completely cinematic, there isn't a realm of possibility where Freeza's ships are Supersonic)

Just doesn't seem like a strong basis to me.

Damage, I hear you. But the points you're making doesn't seem to make much sense with how we treat speed here.

Where does the timeframe come from in the first place for the ships being 42 billion times the speed of light?

Is it the total length of the video linked in the beginning of the calc? Because that seems to me to fall under Cinematic Timing as well considering it cuts between scenes and assumes the entire thing is happening only real time.

It isn't an assumption, there just isn't any reason to assume there was a timeskip there. Again, this logic seems to be very selective, a lot of feats that are considered valid (even by you, iirc) do the same. The scenes are portrayed to be happening in real time, therefore it's fair to say they are happening in real time.

 

[Damage3245]

The ship can reach it's maximum speed in an instant

In practical terms, how quick in this "instant" acceleration actually? Because if the whole timeframe of the feat in question is not supported because of cinematic timing, then how do we know Vegeta didn't just stop the ship before they could accelerate to 42 billion x the speed of light?

Assuming it takes even 0.0001 second to reach this calced speed, for all we know Vegeta could have shot it down in 0.00001 seconds, right?

It isn't an assumption, there just isn't any reason to assume there was a timeskip there. Again, this logic seems to be very selective, a lot of feats that are considered valid (even by you, iirc) do the same. The scenes are portrayed to be happening in real time, therefore it's fair to say they are happening in real time.

Doesn't the movie cutting to a different scene create the possibility of a timeskip? Why assume that it was proceeding in realtime?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Doesn't the movie cutting to a different scene create the possibility of a timeskip? Why assume that it was proceeding in realtime?

Because it wasn't? And as I said, even without cuts the ship reaches very close to the galaxy in 3 seconds, so it'd be MFTL+ no matter how you try to cut it

If you want to assume a timeskip, you're the one who needs to prove that it indeed had a time skip, since you don't prove a negative

 

[Damage3245]

Because it wasn't? And as I said, even without cuts the ship reaches very close to the galaxy in 3 seconds, so it'd be MFTL+ no matter how you try to cut it

If you want to assume a timeskip, you're the one who needs to prove that it indeed had a time skip, since you don't prove a negative

Isn't that impossible? The only way for there to be continuous realtime between a cut of two different scenes is if there is some kind of timer linking both events, or you just assume it carried on in real time.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

In practical terms, how quick in this "instant" acceleration actually? Because if the whole timeframe of the feat in question is not supported because of cinematic timing, then how do we know Vegeta didn't just stop the ship before they could accelerate to 42 billion x the speed of light?

Assuming it takes even 0.0001 second to reach this calced speed, for all we know Vegeta could have shot it down in 0.00001 seconds, right?

Acceleration is not a factor in Dragon Ball ships.
They don't "go faster the longer they fly", assuming a timeframe isn't possible, because none exists.

Doesn't the movie cutting to a different scene create the possibility of a timeskip? Why assume that it was proceeding in realtime?

Before freeza instantly accelerated in front of the galaxy, Goku and others were in the artic. The minions were climbing somewhere to get the Dragon Ball they found
When Freeza got there, they were still in the artic. And the minions were with the Dragon Balls.

Also, the ships reached the galaxy in seconds, so the real time interpretation matches that.

The scene goes

Minions in the artic > Freeza talking > Ships flying into the galaxy > Minions in the artic/reaction feat > Freeza is here.

No timeskip, nothing.
It was real time.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Because it wasn't? And as I said, even without cuts the ship reaches very close to the galaxy in 3 seconds, so it'd be MFTL+ no matter how you try to cut it

If you want to assume a timeskip, you're the one who needs to prove that it indeed had a time skip, since you don't prove a negative

There is no need to 2v1, it isn't fair, and might be overwhelming. I am capable of answering their concerns myself.

 

[Damage3245]

Acceleration is not a factor in Dragon Ball ships.
They don't "go faster the longer they fly", assuming a timeframe isn't possible, because none exists.

Accelerating instantly is a much bigger claim than than just accelerating extremely quickly. I think we'd need better evidence of that than just them travelling from Point A to Point B extremely quickly.

There is no need to 2v1, it isn't fair, and might be overwhelming. I am capable of answering their concerns myself.

It's okay. I can just about keep up with two, though any more than that would be overwhelming, haha.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Accelerating instantly is a much bigger claim than than just accelerating extremely quickly. I think we'd need better evidence of that than just them travelling from Point A to Point B extremely quickly.

Well, the acceleration is very quick and almost instant, but the ship reaches top speed so fast the acceleration is practically instant.

There is no need to 2v1, it isn't fair, and might be overwhelming. I am capable of answering their concerns myself.

You're right. I'll stop commenting from this point onwards, I already made my point and as you said, you can handle it yourself

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Accelerating instantly is a much bigger claim than than just accelerating extremely quickly. I think we'd need better evidence of that than just them travelling from Point A to Point B extremely quickly.

I see. But we can't exactly know the timeframe, it's just insanely quickly. They start, and in the very next panel they've reached top speed.

Same applies to Freeza's ships. The energy burst pop, and done, they're in max speed. While we do not see the ship's energy bursts when it got away, we see the energy behind it riiiight before the Chi Blast hit them, so they were likely at top speed.
At the very least the casual blast was superior to the ship, and so is Base Vegeta.

I think I could even attempt to say "Well, we don't even know if Freeza's ship were at their top speed, so it might even be higher"
But that's just playing Devil's Advocate. (although a valid point as well)

 

[Damage3245]

I see. But we can't exactly know the timeframe, it's just insanely quickly. They start, and in the very next panel they've reached top speed.

Same applies to Freeza's ships. The energy burst pop, and done, they're in max speed. While we do not see the ship's energy bursts when it got away, we see the energy behind it riiiight before the Chi Blast hit them, so they were likely at top speed.
At the very least the casual blast was superior to the ship, and so is Base Vegeta.

I think I could even attempt to say "Well, we don't even know if Freeza's ship were at their top speed, so it might even be higher"
But that's just playing Devil's Advocate. (although a valid point as well)

I see what you mean, but a panel isn't exactly a timeframe. Extremely quick acceleration is not instant acceleration.

As for them being "likely at top speed", I don't exactly see your point for that.

Whilst you're right that their top speed could be even faster, the issue is moreso in assuming they were already at the speed that Frieza's other spaceships were at before they were hit by Vegeta's Ki blast.

 

[Antvasima]

@Damage3245 @DarkDragonMedeus

What do you think that we should do here?

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. Damage responded almost at the same time as I did.

 

[Damage3245]

Hmm. Damage responded almost at the same time as I did.

That was a funny coincidence. I noticed your post popped up immediately after I clicked post on mine.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm not sure what's really going on here.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody write an easy to understand, but proper, explanation for Medeus please?

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

Can somebody write an easy to understand, but proper, explanation for Medeus please?

I'm not sure what's really going on here.

they found a calc for a space ship really deep into mftl+, and vegeta tagged it with a ki blast so charmander believes he should scale to it, but damage is saying there is no evidence that it was at top speed, charmander is arguing that theres no evidence that the ship was even moving at top speed at the calc to begin with on top of the fact these ships accelerate very quickly, damage it doesn't matter as accelerating extremely quicky =/= accelerating instantly (which is a little weird to me considering an instant is just defined as a short span of time).

Personally im neutral but leaning towards damages side even though id love for this calc to be applied

 

[GodlyCharmander]

As for them being "likely at top speed", I don't exactly see your point for that.

Whilst you're right that their top speed could be even faster, the issue is moreso in assuming they were already at the speed that Frieza's other spaceships were at before they were hit by Vegeta's Ki blast.

There is the whole context we have to consider.
The acceleration is insanely quick.

We see it in Freeza's ship. Once the energy loads, and it bursts, they've reached the calculated speed. It doesn't speed up with time after that. (As any other ship).

And Freeza has a much less compelling reason to hurry.

The minions, however, were desperate to flee as fast as they could. Meaning they're trying their best to reach the best speed their ship could.

Let's take a look. Once the ships, including the minion's, reach MFTL+ speed, it's because they've charged this energy behind it. It bursts in an instant, and they reach the max speed immediately.

Basically, if they're leaving this path of energy = They've reached enough speed to cross galactic distances, at the very least.

While we don't see it initially, between the initial movement, and Vegeta's Chi, the they've bursted the energy, and is already at it's max speed.

^ The energy path is already there, not in the midst of bursting or anything.
The ship also doesn't show even the slightest sign of speeding up between this frame and the chi blast hitting it (which takes about 2 seconds in this cinematic)

I believe the evidence for the ship moving as fast as it could move is at least plausible.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

Oh then the calc should be applied, what? If the ship achieves these speeds through using the energy booster, and vegeta tagged it while this booster was active, then he should scale