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Darkstalkers Discussion Thread: Embrace the Dark

I know, and we could make even more if we take in account all the possibilities, I tried to stick with the more plausibile one, without going too high ( I don't really think Anakaris' people, even accounting two kingdoms, was composed by several billions of people all in Egipt)
 
Mitch took a look at the calc and accepted Ultraguy's first pick, I can also agree, it isn't really different from my previous choice and it still makes sense to not assume the population on an outdated number made by compositing a timespan of 16 years.

Does anyone have doubts on the result chosen or we can move on with it?
 
Question shouldn’t Belial still scale to Pyron? He’s by far the strongest character in the series and the only S+ Darkstalker
 
Not necessarily, at least to me.
Pyron's true form is not ranked and takes his power by sheer size, not from the soul like the others. Also, his true form has never been compared to any character.
Pyron also can increase his size overtime by consuming celestial bodies, like in the japanese ending where he basically becomes the universe, meaning that he has not always been 3-C. By that logic, we would put Belial at 3-A for being superior to how Pyron would ever be.
 
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No I’m not saying Belial should be 3A because Pyron only does that through expansion (Also I’m pretty sure that’s not canon anyway)

Belial is the absolute god tier of the verse, literally the only S+ class darkstalker in the verse and above that if Pyron, I find it insane that Pyron just one shots Belial in his true form
 
It's not canon that Pyron becomes 3-A, but he wasn't 3-C at the beginning, he became so through expansion. He evolved into an immaterial life form and consumed planets over the course of million of years, expanding his gravitational path and collection of planets. He likely can become 3-A by expanding non-stop over an unknown period of time though, because that's what he does, he consumes/collects celestial bodies and becomes bigger.

I feel uncomfortable just because we don't have comparisons between them or anything similar. Belial is indeed incredibly stronger than a restricted Pyron, since the latter was defeated and consumed by Demitri, while Belial's power is considered equal to that of several hundreds A class Makai nobles (like Demitri), and is well above even Jedah and Morrigan (who didn't acquired all of her original power even after merging with Lilith).

But True Pyron doesn't have a rank nor a connection with anyone, and his size depends on the point of the history. Because at the beginning he had an unknown size, and increased even more up to his current one. He may have been inferior to A classes at the beginning, we don't really know.
However, I can agree with giving Belial a "Possibly" as a compromise.
 
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Yes, because Pyron is already 3-C when he arrives on Earth in the first game, he then shrinks into a more limiting form to fight the Darkstalkers, because he loves combat.

He wasn't that big at the beginning (More than 200 millions years ago) when he achieved his immaterial form. He started wandering through space, consuming and collecting beuatiful celestial bodies, expanding himself in the process.
The 3-A size is something he could eventually achieve by eating everything in the universe, which is what happens in his japanese ending (which isn't canon but is always in the realm of possibilites).
All of these things I stated are in the guides and in the graphic files.

That's why I'm a bit iffy on scaling anyone to his true form, because he's constantly expanding and we don't have any precise reference to compare him to anyone.
 
Well then Pyron is "eventually becomes 3-A or even High 3-A" by this.

And Belial should compare.

Oh Morrigan and Jedah - they scale above that right?
 
Not necessarily, Jedah, Morrigan and Belial indeed scale above Mortal Pyron, the restricted form he took to fight the Darkstalkers and that was defeated by Demitri, but there is no reason to compare anyone to his true form.

There is a legit tier 4 feat for them scaling from Ozom's soul being used to create the Majigen, which is a real realm that contains at least some stars, and the power of the soul is stated to be directly compared to the raw power of an individual.
On top, we only know that Belial is hundreds of time stronger than Demitri and could even oneshot Jedah.

Other than that there's no feat, statement or else to compare any character to the real Pyron, which is a giant and immaterial mass of energy that grows by consuming planets.

I can accept a "possibly" for Belial just because he's supposed to be the strongest, but scaling any other character over True Pyron is a groundless assumption.
Pyron himself restricted his form to give his enemies a chance to fight.

And true Pyron's power has grown over the course of ages, there was probably a time where he was inferior to other characters even in his true form, but he just grows always more eating things.
 
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Matthew_Schroeder said:
What even is the Pyron argument

Pyron eventually consuming the universe never happens.
Click to expand...
My argument is that no one should scale to real Pyron just because there's no reason to it.

True Pyron doesn't have a rank, has never fought anyone and there is no statement, in a game or in a guide, that compares him to other people.
I wanted to talk about this in the CRT, but placing characters above true Pyron just because they scale to his restricted form is wrong.

True Pyron should be his own thing, without scaling to other characters due to assumptions.

The thing about him growing was because Schnee said that Belial should be at the absolute top therefore even above True Pyron, but we don't have any proof of that and True Pyron's tier comes from size alone.
 
SamanPatou said:
My argument is that no one should scale to real Pyron just because there's no reason to it.
Click to expand...
Bullshit. Pyron is blatantly weaker than Jedah.

SamanPatou said:
True Pyron doesn't have a rank, has never fought anyone and there is no statement, in a game or in a guide, that compares him to other people.
Click to expand...
This is specifically the reason. He has no statement ever saying he's a God-Tier S-Rank, and the fact that he only shows up to lose to Demitri and empower him back to A-Rank (Which shows how weak his "Small Form" really is)... Or, comparatively, how Morrigan easily destroys him in her ending.

In the PSOne version of Vampire Savior he only comes back to life because Jedah revives him and then when Jedah gets bored he passively aborbs Pyron back to the Majigen.

Pyron is undeniably weaker than Jedah.
 
Well, both Vampire Hunter 2 and Vampire Savior 2 are modified and non canon version of the original, they lack some characters and add others like Pyron, making those endings what ifs at most.
And even then, Jedah gradually absorbed Pyron over time. For this reason and for not being canon, this argument shouldn't be used, because it never happens just like Pyron consuming the universe doesn't happen.

Pyron is defeated by Morrigan and Demitri while in a weakened state, with both of them consuming his soul, they never faced the true form. (If I'm not wrong, according to the guides Demitri already recovered his A rank strength when he fought Pyron, but that's another thing).

His small form is weak, yes, that's the purpose of it, being smaller and tangible, while the giant non-corporeal mass of energy would triumph over the enemies he wants to fight. But I don't see why the would be above his true form just because they defeated the weaker one, created exactly to be weaker.
 
SamanPatou said:
And even then, Jedah gradually absorbed Pyron over time. For this reason and for not being canon, this argument shouldn't be used, because it never happens just like Pyron consuming the universe doesn't happen.
Click to expand...
SamanPatou said:
Pyron is defeated by Morrigan and Demitri while in a weakened state, with both of them consuming his soul, they never faced the true form. (If I'm not wrong, according to the guides Demitri already recovered his A rank strength when he fought Pyron, but that's another thing).
Click to expand...
No. Demitri killed Pyron when he absorbed him and this made him Rank A again.
 
Schnee_One said:
I am going to ask this, why wouldn’t people scale to Pyrons true form if they absorb his weakened form and by extension his true form?
Click to expand...
Because Pyron is a flaming Galactus dude so people think he looks cool and impressive and can't accept him being fodder to Jedah.
 
Schnee_One said:
I am going to ask this, why wouldn’t people scale to Pyrons true form if they absorb his weakened form and by extension his true form?
Click to expand...
Because I find somewhat weird the whole thing.
I mean, the strength of the soul is stated to be the same as the raw power of the individual, but I find somewhat iffy to say that Demitri obtained a strength derived by sheer size upon eating Pyron's soul.
 
SamanPatou said:
Because I find somewhat weird the whole thing.
I mean, the strength of the soul is stated to be the same as the raw power of the individual, but I find somewhat iffy to say that Demitri obtained a strength derived by sheer size upon eating Pyron's soul.
Click to expand...
Pyrons soul is what gives him the power to do that via size

Really this is no different from absorbing something much stronger then you and taking that tier, even if Pyron is restricted, absorbing his soul in that state would still give you the strength of his true form.

That, and I find Pyron being able to one shot Jedah in his true form to be very iffy as well.
 
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Yeah, you're right after all.
Would that mean that Demitri became 3-C too? It would make sense, he was also confident in challenging Morrigan and even Belial.

But I think that Demitri already recovered his strength when he fought Pyron.
At least from what's written there, quoting

After 100 years of humiliation for his loss, he had
gained alot. He acquired various new abilities and knowledge. The Prince of
Darkness steadily readied himself to take over Makai once again.
The presence of an alien life form on Earth was an unexpected event for
Demitri. Demitri seized this opportunity to further gain strength and fought
against Pyron and consumed the alien life form. He was confident that he was
strong enough to challenge and defeat the ruler of Makai, Belial.

This makes me think that after 100 years of rest and feasting on humans, Demitri recovered his original strength as an A class.
After consuming Pyron he might have become A+ (Like Ozom, who became A+ in a similar manner) or, who knows, maybe even straight up class S.
 
I think it’s a bit too assumptive to believe that he can fight Morrigan or Jedah, Demitri is extremely arrogant after all.
 
You're right, I wanted to say that him being confident could be a hint at how stronger he became after eating Pyron.
He already fought Belial and knows his strength.
He might not even be on par with Morrigan, but he should be close or not leagues behind.
(Not to Morrigan fused with Lilith, who's way stronger).
I think Demitri should be tier 4 or 3 after consuming Pyron, even assuming he didn't gain all of his strength.
 
Lemme work down from here.

Pyron is 3C, Belial should be 3C by extension (Also the 4A feat can be removed as it’s just for support at this point)

Demitri absorbed Pyron, making him 3C, Jedah is 3C via being superior and Morrigan fused with Lilith is 3C as well via being comparable.

Outside of that, everybody else is either High 5A or 6B, only the top tiers scale to that.
 
Morrigan even before merging with Lilith should still be in the same range, she very likely defeated Jedah and was still superior to Mortal Pyron and Demitri.
I actually wanted to find a middle way to rank Mortal Pyron and Demitri pre-Pyron, the current 5-A is a bit out of nowhere.
I was thinking of 4-C from an in-game quote of Pyron that is "I crushed stars, what hopes do you think to have against me?" or something really similar.
Here Mortal Pyron is comparing his power to the enemy, so I think that 4-C would be fine for him and Demitri pre-absorb.
That would also be the tier of A class Darkstalkers, which would make sense with Ozom, who became A+ after absorbing energy of the gate and his soul was used to create the Majigen, which is still somewhere in tier 4 using the actual stages of the game and not the piece of art that is currently used and holds no real meaning.

6-B will become low 7-B according to the new calc.
 
The speed is also something I want to talk about.
The mid and top tiers should still be light speed and above from Pyron who is stated to can casually fly at the speed of light.
The feat used for the others doesn't make sense at all but they still should be supersonic+ or more for keeping up with BB Hood and Huitzil, who fight using guns, missiles etc...
The Huitzils moving at FTL speed is taken from the comics and is directly contradicted by the guides and the games themselves.
Jon also states that he hasn't reached the speed of light yet.
Part of the CRT will be getting rid of everything taken from the ovas and the comics, I actually want to make profiles even for them.
 
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Anyway, the accepted result of the calc seems to be ok for everyone, I guess I can open the CRT now.
 
This question came into my mind while applying the CRT.

Given that true Pyron is twice the size of the Milky Way, and Morrigan is already superior to him and becomes two times stronger than before due to merging with Lilith (who's her exact half) would she become 3-B?
 
I think it depends on the value used as baseline, like two solar systems doesn't make you 4-A, but I don't know if the Milky Way is used as baseline or not.

Anyway, Morrigan post fusion would be 4 Milky Ways, because in base she already is > True Pyron who is 2 Galaxies in size.
And then Lilith is her identical half, so after merging Morrigan is "4 Milky Ways level"
 
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