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Darkstalkers Discussion Thread: Embrace the Dark

SamanPatou

SamanPatou

VS Battles
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Welcome everyone to a discussion thread dedicated to a dead series with still so much to talk about.

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So, hear me out. This is something I've been planning for a long time, in order to give the series the treatment it deserves and shed light on the profiles and the verse in general.
Going straight to the point, Darkstalkers is a short but complicated series. There are two (three, if we count the first) main games, a ton of re-releases and much material like manga, comics, ovas etc...
The first two games don't give much informations on the world and the characters, which have been expanded by the already mentioned "side materials". Although there are a couple of guides released at the time that had the purpose of explaining a lot of stuff and will be extremely useful for the revisions I plan to do.
The main guide is All About Vampire Hunter (Released in 1995), whose informations have been repeated or expanded in other official products such as All About Capcom Fighting Games 1987-2000 (Released in 2000) and Darkstalkers Graphic File (released in 2008).
This products don't take in account what happened outside of the games, and focus on expanding the lore of the characters and the world, as well as clearing some things like the true ending of the first (second) game.
Unfortunately, I don't have the original versions of the guides, I can't physically get them now and I wasn't able to find scans on internet.
Though, some time ago I found this article published in 2003 on Gamefaqs, which covers what has been said in All About Vampire Hunter and All About Capcom Fighting Games.
And here's the problem, this article doesn't provide scan, but I'm going to give you some reasons for which I believe it is reliable.
1) The informations contained in the article, with relative reference to the guides, are the same used in the Darkstalkers Wiki and other parts of the internet.
2) Although I wasn't able to find scans, some part of the guide can be seen in the recent episode of Death Battle, during the analysis of Jon Talbain, and they match with what has been written on the article (Timestamps: 6.54 and 10.32)
3) The Darkstalkers Graphic Files, which can be found on internet in high quality (here for example) support the contents of the article, like the informations regarding the characters' age, weight etc... and other plot-related points.

In conclusion, deciding if this article can be used, in absence of true scans of the original guides, is the starting point to take care of the Darkstalkers verse, hoping that one day Capcom will bless our souls with a new game.
 
God Dammit you beat me to it!

I was just doing research on Darkstalkers after being reminded of the series recently from Sphere Hunter, and I decided to go ahead and look at some older DS threads to see what feats their were.

Right off the bat, I think we should drop the 4A feat and make the characters outright 3C, there’s really no point to the possibly 4A when the 3C feat already exists, I’m currently being sure if both feats are fully legit before I do that.

Next, I want to look at Jedah’s regen again, it potentially could be either mid godly or just really good low godly.

Lastly, I want there to be files for the other DS, I think it’s fair and easy to do that.

But without question the most important topic here.

Morrigan is best girl
 
I wanted to address those points in a future CRT, to not clog up this thread whose focus is determine if we can use that article I linked and evaluate all the evidences I brought in support for it.

But I'll give my thoughts on what you proposed:

1) The 4-A feat is badly explained in the profiles, since the reason for which the Majigen contains multiple stars is just this piece of art that can be seen during the credits and doesn't have a context whatsoever
The Majigen, from what we know, contains at least a planet, a star and a moon, judging from the stages of Darkstalkers 3, such as Vanity Paradise, Red Thirst and Desert Chateau (the other stages don't show any celestial body, everyone is free to check, or I can provide them if you want).
In Red Thirst we see a starry sky behind the moon, so maybe it can be used as an evidence for a 4-A tier, I'd be fine with that
Jedah didn't create the Majigen on his own, instead he used the soul of Emperor Ozom and countless others, but that doesn't matter, because lorewise Jedah already scales above Emperor Ozom and the guides, among other details, confirm that in Darkstalkers strength of the soul = strength of the user (like Morrigan's power, which is split alongside her soul)

2) Giving 3-C to the top tiers would be a sort of stretch, and now I'll explain why.
First, Jedah consuming Pyron comes from Vampire Hunter 2 or Vampire Savior 2, which are re-releases of Darkstalkers 3 with some characters being cutted and some others added from previous games (i.e. Donovan, Pyron and Huitzil).
Both of these games are non canon and have a different story from the original Darkstalkers 3, as well as some what ifs like Jedah dragging Pyron in the Majigen from the past, and that's the only instance where a character has supposedly interacted with the true form of Pyron.
Even casting aside the non-canonicity etc..., Pyron was consumed gradually and soon he will become part of Jedah, impliying that it still has to happen, or it happened overtime anyway, and that's a second reason for why Jedah shouldn't normally scale to true form Pyron.
Any other argument for which someone should scale to true form Pyron is an assumption, since Pyron doesn't have a class like the other Darkstalkers and he purposedly weakened himself in order to fight the other Darkstalkers (you can read it the third paragraph).
And no other character has ever interacted with his true form, nor any statement has ever been made.

3) Jedah's regen is low/mid godly overtime, because he took 100 years to reform himself, but for combat purposes it still is at least mid or even more, since part of his moveset consists in losing part of his body and reform them immediately after, head included (here's a cropped version of the panels and here the moves can be seen in action, at 0:54, 0:58 and 1:15) . Also, the guides state that his body is made of a liquid-like substance, so I wouldn't be surpised by a level higher than mid for combat purposes.

All the files of the Graphic File are visible in the Pinterest link I posted in the op, those are the scans of the entire book and contain all characters.

Finally.... Hsien-Ko is the best girl and you will never be able to change my mind
 
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Seems fine to me. Also, I wish Capcom would re-release these games on Modern consoles as I actually want to play these games lol.
 
Not gonna happen

Your best bet is to buy the collection on PS3 and even then nobody plays online
 
Thank you for the input, Dragon.

With Capcom's new fighting game division seems to be more fan-oriented, at least judging by what they have done with SFV in the last year, so another release of the gold games might be at least expected.

Btw, Schnee what do you think of the op?

I think that Jasonsith, Matthew Schroeder and maybe some other users will give their opinions, after that I'll open the first CRT
 
I don’t agree with us using the Darkstalkers wiki, that is commonly frowned upon and a reason Rakudai got downgraded
 
It's not the wiki, it's article I linked that covers two official guides of the time (which are the only sources of informations available outside of the games and the graphic files)
I brought up the wiki only as one of the support evidences of what is written in the article, since I can't provide the scans.
I was saying that those informations are also used by the wiki (and not only by them), so it's likely to me that those informations are legit (and the other two points serve to further support the article)
 
Well, even not using the wiki, there's still the fact that part of the contents of the article (which isn't related to the wiki, it has been published in 2003 in another website) are in the graphic files and some scans can be seen in the Death Battle video, proving that at least those pieces actually exists.
I don't care about the wiki, it was just to say that it uses the same guides.

And, frankly, I think that there's no reason to believe that the author of the article made up what it has written, especially if we have proof that part of its work is actually on the guides.
 
"And, frankly, I think that there's no reason to believe that the author of the article made up what it has written, especially if we have proof that part of its work is actually on the guides"

Not only is it a wiki meaning edits can be made by anyone, but this is still irrelevant because site standards dictate we can't
 
Maybe there has been a misunderstanding, but the wiki isn't the main focus here.
I wasn't talking of the wiki at all, we can even totally ignore it.

My point focuses around this article/plot guide, which is a transcription of All About Vampire Hunter and All About Capcom Fighting Games 1987-2000, the two official guides released at the time that have been made to tell more details about the characters and the world of the game. (Edit: There's also All About Vampire Savior, which tells the same things, since is the "All About" od Darkstalkers 3)
The article has nothing to do with the wiki, it's completely unrelated.
We for for sure that those guides exists and are related to each other (the All About was a series of guides), and we can see part of the first guide in the Death Battle episode, and the Graphic Files use the same exact data used in the guides, just a less amount because they didn't fit in the single pages dedicated to each character.
I'm using this article only because it is impossible for me to find those guides both in digital or physical version, but the argument I made previously and in the op are all meant to support that the article is completely legit even regarding the parts that we can't check through a video or the graphic files.

Edit: I also found a single scan from All About Vampire Savior in another website, and according to the translation given, it says the same things written in the article/plot guide. And note that the plot guide and the website where I found the scan are completely unrelated, the plot guide has been published in 2003, and the respect thread where I found the scan was published in 2016

Edit 2: I found another support fact.
When Darkstalkers Resurrection came out, IGN and Capcom released a series of official videos where Capcom employer briefly talked about the characters' moves and story. In the video dedicated to Anakaris, they reference the fact that Anakaris has his own set of commandments.
This is not said in the Graphic Files, however it is present in the All About Vampire Hunter guide, and therefore transcripted in the plot guide. This is another part of the plot guide of which we are now sure being real.

Another thing is Teppen's card False Throne, whose flavor text is a reference at a very importat plot-related point, which is how Ozom obtained the throne of the Dohma family by deceiveing Jedah, another fact that has been said in All About Vampire Savior (and not in the Graphic Files) and is present in the plot guide too.
 
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Schnee_One said:
None of that was my point, I was merely saying the wiki cannot be used as support
Click to expand...
Oh, I get it now, sorry if I got too excited, it's just that I reeeeally want to take care of this verse the best way possible!
Anyway, let's discard the wiki, it's not important.

I'll ask a couple of other people to comment here, just to be sure on the consensus
 
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SamanPatou said:
And here's the problem, this article doesn't provide scan, but I'm going to give you some reasons for which I believe it is reliable.
Click to expand...
It is reliable. The original translation for that guide was in like a shitty personal late 90s /early 2000s website. I remember accessing, but I think it's since went down. The information contained in that translation (Like how big Makai is, the bios on the characters, etc) has basically been copypasted everywhere.
 
Thank you, this is a really useful thing to know.
Despite seeing them everywhere, it's like impossible to find actual scans of any of the All About Guides, in any language, so I wanted to address it before proposing what's written in there.
 
The blog pretty much says the right things, but I disagree on the following:

- Compositing every material is good and perfect for the sake of the show, but I strongly believe that it shouldn't be done for the wiki (I also want to make separate profiles, at least for the OVA).

- Pyron being ranked as an A class. This is half false, since Pyron took a semi-physical and weaker form in order to fight the other Darkstalkers (this is also confirmed by the graphic files themselves).
He is considered (by us people, there's no reference in the guides or the files) A class scaling from Demitri (who at the time had already recovered his original strength, this is also confirmed), which is correct but only for his shrinked form, that is very different from his original form, in size, appearance, properties etc...
There isn't any statement about any other character being comparable to real Pyron, or any of them interacting with him, and his galactic tier comes from him being a giant. I also already addressed it in the second post here in this thread, but this will be discussed in the second CRT I will make.

- Both the plot guide and the Graphic files states that the Huitzils were created by Pyron when he came on Earth 65 million years ago. The part where it is said that they where built with materials found on Hellstorm, sent on various planets and built for interstellar travel is all taken from the comics (and possibly from the OVA, but I don't remember it being mentioned at all) and shouldn't be scaled to the games version, who never flew to space and were built directly on the planet.

- Saying that BB Hood scales under all the others for being a full human, therefore a C class, is incorrect.
Both the plot guide and the graphic files state that even D class beasts, like Hannya (Bishamon's armor), can have the strength of a B+ class. At the same time, humans are classified as C only as a formality.
In the description of Makai is said that a human wouldn't survive a day in there, while billions of D class beasts have no (or at least not so much) problems living in that world. Also, it is stated that it's possible for a C class Darkstalkers to kill an entire army of elite-class soldiers, a feat well above what an average human can do.
B.B. Hood might be a normal human, but her heart and soul (therefore power) are like those of a Darkstalker. In the Darkhunter paragraph is said that normal weapons and martial arts aren't enough to fight a Darkstalker, for the reason above (and a couple more, but that's another story), confirming that BB Hood's power and weapons are far above those of an average human.


Btw, another point that strengthen the comparison between Anakaris and the other is that, even casting aside the classes, in Makai the power of one is determined by the strength of the soul, and there are various instances of them being directly related (Like Lilith being the soul and the power of Morrigan at the same time) or hinted, like all the energy attacks used by the characters.
 
Anything that comes out from Anakaris' feat for the "low tier", which has already being calculated by Jason here, and it was agreed with town level as the most suitable tier, although we might discuss it further when comparing it to Death Battle's result.

The top tiers would either remain 4-A but for a different reason, being that the multiple stars used as justification are just a vague piece of art, but we actually see a starry sky in the Red Thirst stage.
Otherwise, if we drop the starry sky in Red Thirst, for any reason, they will go to 4-B, 4-C or whatever is the tier for creating a space with at least a planet, a moon and a sun.

Post Pyron's soul absorption Demitri would be upgraded the tier above, because Jedah used Ozom's soul to create the Majigen.
Jedah was already casually superior to Ozom, so he upscales, while Ozom (who had absorbed part of the gate's power) was ranked as A+ Class
Demitri is naturally an A class, and after absorbing Pyron he was confident in challenging Belial and Morrigan (keep in mind that he already fought Belial in the past) so I think is reasonable to say that he became at least comparable to a class A+, even if we want to keep him under class S, which is Morrigan's class (Belial is S+).

Normal Demitri and restricted Pyron are tricky, because they upscale from the B+ class but are inferior to A+ like Ozom.
Finding a middle ground is difficult, since there's no reference or feat, but in a win quote Pyron says that he crushed stars (and in the same quote he makes a direct comparison between his power and that of the opponent), which would make sense for him doing so in his giant form, but wouldn't even be a strange tier for the restricted one, since they downscale from a 4-A/4-B feat.
So, personally I would put them in 4-C.

Finally, no one except Pyron itself should scale to 3-C, simply because there's no reason to do it.
That tier comes from his true form covering a a 400,000-light years wide orbital path and no one has ever fought, interacted or has been compared to him.
Also, Jedah never absorbed him in canon, and even then it was a what-if scenario that happened gradually over an unknown amount of time.
 
Now I just need to ask someone to translate 600+ pages of infos we already have

Jokes aside, I could ask for a page or two that aren't too well defined in the guide, like B.B. Hood's paragraph that talks about "not going insane", which could be just a way to define a mental brakedown or the addition of madness manipulation to the Darkstalkers' aura.
 
Btw, now we are in front of a big decision. Basically, we have to decide which calculation for Anakaris' feat is more suitable and then have it evaluated.
Jasonsith's blog

Now, the options are:

  • Phantom Falcon's pick: 3 pyramids pulled down as seen at the start of the ending
  • Phantom Falcon's pick with fix by Jasonsith: 10 pyramids pulled down as seen at the end
  • Ultraguy's pick 1: Total number of pyramids in Egypt + Approximate population during Anakaris' reign + Approximate number of general buildings (based on the fact that Anakaris' made his entire reign suddenly disappear)
  • Ultraguy's pick 2: Same as before but the population is counted as 60 million workers, according to Darkstalkers' lore about the number of people that worked at Anakaris' pyramid
  • Ultraguy's pick 3: Same as before but the population is upscaled to the workers, assuming a higher number of people doing other things.
Now you have only to chose which calc you think is more suitable, but first I want to give my opinion.

Personally, I think that a new calc should be done, and this calc would take in account: 10 pyramids/double pyramids (since that's how they appear in the ending) + 60 million people and no building, always assuming that he moved everything like stated by the Graphic Files and the All About Guide.

There's the doubt if ten upside down pyramids can host 60 million people, but I'm explaining my idea.

First, it's possible that Anakaris planned the moving and embarked all of his people in the pyramids. The population, the 60 million workers are the only clear reference we have, as stated by the guides.
Anakaris' kingdom was prosperous and larger than real Egypt, but there was also a nearby kingdom that threatened it, meaning that it wasn't the only one and didn't have absolute control over the whole zone.
The 60 million workers were also employed over the course of 16 years and, following the official chronology, for the two years that passed between Anakaris' death and return, his realm was invaded and nearly conquered by the nearby kingdom.
He then took over the other kingdom in a year, before transporting everyone in the other dimension. So, we don't know the exact number or people that lived in the kingdom at the moment of the feat (since 60 million is an "outdated" number) and I think it would be safe to use the only certain number we have, assuming that the 60 million might include all types of people, from workers to others, as a possible number of the population.

There's also another doubt, i.e. the fact that she final scene, the one that shows the ten double pyramids is actually located in the future, 5000 years after Anakaris' moved his kingdom. Then, it's possible that the kingdom expanded over thousands of years, building more pyramids and more (we see them expanding all over the horizon, implying that there's more than what we see)


There are a lot of odds around this thing and I'm really interested in hearing your opinions.
Also, after we reach a conclusion and get the chosen calc accepted, I'll open the big CRT.
 
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Creaturemaster971 said:
So Darkstalkers apparently is suddenly getting attention again. Hopefully Capcom takes note.
Click to expand...
Well, I was planning this since before the forum move.

(Now please give your opinions on the calcs and their context pls)
 
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You need to get a calc member to respond to that, I can't give input on what is more accurate or makes more sense
 
But it's not about the result.
I mean, we are making assumptions on what to consider regarding the feat, because it's not totally clear and there are multiple odds depending on what we see, what the lore says etc.... but all options are virtually possible.
A calc member can judge the math, but everyone can give an opinion on the context, like the example I have given on how I would consider the feat.
Btw, I'll try to summon some calc members anyway.
 
Anyway, rethinking at all, I decided to change my mind to Ultraguy's Pick 2.
That because the kingdom has been expanded after 5000 years, and the other half of the pyramid it has likely been constructed during that period. Also, as Jasonsith told me, 20 million people don't fit in just 10 pyramids.
And we see the new place extending over the horizon, meaning that there is still more.
I think that upscaling the population is a bit too much.

That said, I stick with Ultraguy's pick 2

I still want to hear your opinions, then I will ask for the evaluation of the decided result.
 
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