Daredevil Revision

[TeenAngel101]

Not to mention 8-A characters such as Black Panther and Beast are still listed at Building level by their own feats.

IMO, it might be best to make 8-A characters High 8-C. It seems more consistent and scalable.

 

[Antvasima]

I am leaning towards that conclusion as well. We seem to scale them from a few outliers or non-scalable feats.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Honestly, I think that 8-A is fine for the absolute best Street levels. Deadpool has several feats on this level and others have a few on that level as well.

The problem is that people seem to be unable to accept the difference from 9-A to 8-A for characters who are supposed to be on the same level but are fine with splitting High-Tiers characters supposed to be in the same level into much larger gaps, of 5-B to 4-B.

The Thing has technically fought and hurt Thor and Hulk numerous times, but of course we won't make him 4-B.

Same thing applies for Daredevil and Cap.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I am starting to think that might be better. As it is most consistent with the overall scaling.
However, I'm pretty sure all the 8-A stuff is Deadpool's Durability. There are feats that are 8-A from Cap and Wolverine, however Cap's feat was blocked with his shield, which is 4-B. Wolverine also has Adamantium Skeleton, which is also 4-B.

But Cap was clearly hurt by the blast or else he wouldn't be with a torn apart costume.

And Wolverine was hurt by the punch and it hit his skin, not the adamantium skeleton.

The two are very explicit 8-A feats for them.

And Beast has 8-C feats. Gambit is at least 8-C too and his blast did nothing to Cap. Black Panther has 8-C feats...

Really, the absolute strongest Street levelers being this strong are fine.

I wrote a gigantic Blog Tribute for Captain America compiling his feat and he is far, far, far stronger than a typical 9-B Peak Human most believe him to be.

He has like, three examples of surviving buildings collapsing on top of him, and other similarly high-end feats. He has 9-B feats even when completely depowered and relying solely on his musculature.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the Thing has a fully acceptable feat on the 5-B level, whereas those that Captain America currently scale from seem more unreliable.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You have to understand that if I wanted, I could make a case for a Marvel character we have at 7-B to be 4-B just by the sheer number of times he's hurt Heralds of Galactus or Thor.

Scaling alone isn't enough.

Also, I want an intermediary Tier for the Street-heroes. Likely a High 8-C between the 9-A and 8-A.

 

[TeenAngel101]

The problem is that most characters are 8-A through scaling, which is the same reason Cap is 8-A, via scaling from Deadpool. It really doesn't make sense. As Ant said, this is where reasonable scaling leads us.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The problem is that most characters are 8-A through scaling, which is the same reason Cap is 8-A, via scaling from Deadpool. It really doesn't make sense. As Ant said, this is where reasonable scaling leads us.

It's not.

Cap and Wolverine have Tier 8 feats as well.

If Daredevil had at least 8-C feats I wouldn't have a problem. But he is clearly not that strong.

Why do you think it is reasonable to scale a character who has 0 feats above Wall level to 8-A? Cap, Wolverine, Black Panther all have multiple Tier 8 feats.

Daredevil has none.

By the same logic, shouldn't it be reasonable to make Thing 4-B since he is consistently hurting Thor and Hulk whenever they fight? Even though his absolute best feat is 5-B?

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, Deadpool is also a gag character with Regenerationn. Neither he nor Cap remotely have AP feats of the 8-A level.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yes, Deadpool is a gag character with Regenerationn. Neither he nor Cap remotely have AP feats of the 8-A level.

His Regenerationn takes hours to work for significant damage and none of the feats in his scene involve Regenerationn. And he isn't nearly as much a Gag characterr as you are saying.

Seriously, this discussion has happened before, word for word.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it is mostly due to that we have never remotely seen this level of destructive scale from them. Deadpool's Regenerationn is also inconsistent and his stories involve a larger degree of suspension of disbelief than most Marvel characters.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also, the argument from Regenerationn isn't really that good.

Swamp Thing can survive Multiversal+ attacks through sheer Regenerationn, but he can be harmed by a flamethrower or a Rocket Launcher.

That doesn't mean that those weapons are Multiversal+, only that his Regenerationn enables him to survive such attacks.

In both Deadpool's and Wolverine's feats, neither had anything to regenerate from. That's the point.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well, it is mostly due to that we have never remotely seen this level of destructive scale from them. Deadpool's Regenerationn is also inconsistent and his stories involve a larger degree of suspension of disbelief than most Marvel characters.

It's not nearly as inconsistent as you are saying. He generally takes a few minutes to regrow even fingers, significant amount of time (Like, 30 minutes+) to regenerate limbs, which is why he prefers to manually re-attach them.

And when he was vaporized, it took him many hours to return to normal.

A consistent part of Deadpool's character is that his Regenerationn is awful in terms of how long it takes to work..

 

[Antvasima]

And Wolverine's skeleton is consistently treated as shielding him from blunt impacts from Hulk-level powerhouses. It makes absolutely no sense for his flesh to be able to remain intact, but it is a plot convenience that Marvel nevertheless consistently uses.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Ajd Wolverine's skeleton is consistently treated as being able to withstand blunt impact from Hulk-level power houses. It makes absolutely no sense for his flesh to be able to do so, but it is a plot convenience that Marvel nevertheless consistently uses.

But Wolverine doesn't have Solar System level durability in neither his flesh nor muscles.

Sure, he survives punches from the Hulk, but Sabretooth can significantly harm him in life-threatening battles.

Does that mean Sabretooth has Solar System level Attack Potency? Of course not. It's best to ignore him surviving blows from the Hulk.

 

[TeenAngel101]

The reason it is being brought up so much is that the more people are trying to clean-up and properly scale the mess that is Marvel, reasonable and consistent power-scaling constantly leads to tons of characters being 8-A. When they shouldn't be.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The reason it is being brought up so much is that the more people are trying to clean-up and properly scale the mess that is Marvel, reasonable and consistent power-scaling constantly leads to tons of characters being 8-A.

It isn't reasonable in the slightest.

Can you explain why are you okay with scaling a 9-B character like Daredevil (Seriously, even 9-A is pushing but I'm fine with it since he consistently fights the Punisher) to 8-A just out of scaling? Specially in an inconsistent media like Marvel?

But at the same time, you obviously aren't okay with scaling a 5-B character like the Thing or Grey Hulk to 4-B? Even though I could easily find just as many instances of them hurting Thor as you do of Daredevil hurting Deadpool or Cap?

Also, Captain America has casually stomped Daredevil in the past. And he even defeated some of the people that are being argued as 8-A scaling from him while depowered (Crossbones)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...aptain_America_-_The_Living_Legend:_A_Tribute

^ This is my Captain America Research Blog. I spent months reading through his comics and it is one of the largest blogs in the whole wiki.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, in that case we should ignore that Wolverine can withstand attacks from Gorgon and the M'Krann Crystal guardian as well, which is what his durability feats are scaled from.

Again, the main issue is that Cap, Wolverine, Deadpool, Black Panther, etcetera, do not remotely have destructive feats of an 8-A level. They are recurrently kept undamaged by plot induced stupidity outliers.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well, in that case we should ignore that he can withstand attacks from Gorgon and the M'Krann Crystal guardian as well.
Again, the main issue is that Cap, Wolverine, Deadpool, Black Panther, etcetera, do not remotely have destructive feats of an 8-A level. They are recurrently kept undamaged by plot induced stupidity outliers.

"Plot Induced Stupidity Outliers"

When they happen so many times it ceases being an outlier.

Also, Range is a thing. We specially stopped calling Attack Potency "Destructive Capability" for that same reason.

It makes no logical sense for Captain America to have Wall level AP but MCB Durability.

Would you say that a character who survives a Big-Bang level explosion cannot be 3-A / Low 2-C just because they never destroyed a universe? This is the same argument.

Also, just because we're ignoring that he has survived Tier 4 attacks doesn't mean we should ignore Tier 8 attacks. That's a false equivalency. It is arguing from incredulity.

 

[TeenAngel101]

I mean, for other verses, like Star Wars. Darth Sidious is High 4-C, this is okay. Because:

1. He is the most powerful Sith of all time.

2. It has been repeatedly stated that he was the most powerful being in the galaxy, and that no other Jedi or Sith is anywhere near his power.

3. Only Luke, Mace, and Yoda scales.

For 8-A Cap, through all his fights, can be scaled to tons of characters. It's not even him, Deadpool scales to pretty much everyone he fights, as he gets his ass kicked almost every time

 

[Antvasima]

Jah'ff the guardian has punched out Gladiator. He is a Hulk level entity.

I am just saying that I would be more comfortable with if we find out the highest amount of damage that any street tier character has done and scale from that, than rely on the fact that the writers cannot allow them to be killed or crippled in a few very rare outlier incidents.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I mean, for other verses, like Star Wars. Darth Sidious is High 4-C, this is okay. Because:
1. He is the most powerful Sith of all time.

2. It has been repeatedly stated that he was the most powerful being in the galaxy, and that no other Jedi or Sith is anywhere near his power.

3. Only Luke, Mace, and Yoda scales.

For 8-A Cap, through all his fights, can be scaled to tons of characters. It's not even him, Deadpool scales to pretty much everyone he fights, as he gets his ass kicked almost every time

Actually:

1. Cap is consistently shown to be far above other Street level heroes, specially because of his role as leader of the Avengers, and being a paragon hero others aspire to be like.

2. Captain America has consistently stomped characters you say should scale. Seriously, he has casually beaten Daredevil multiple times. Deadpool cowers at the idea of fighting him. He casually one-shots people like Hawkeye. He is unharmed by a point-blank explosion from Gambit and one-shots him. He beats people like Crossbones even when fully depowered... I could go on and on.

3. Thus, only those who are consistently on the same level scale.

 

[The_Everlasting]

"The plot needs them to survive" is not an argument.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Jah'ff the guardian has punched out Gladiator. He is a Hulk level entity.
I am just saying that I would be more comfortable with if we find out the highest amount of damage that any street tier character has done and scale from that, than rely on the fact that the writers cannot allow them to be killed or crippled in a few very rare outlier incidents.

But the Guardian was clearly holding back when he punched him. Which is why the feat could be calced at 8-C.

Same when Black Panther survived a casual blast from a Herald of Galactus which was also calced at 8-C. Or when the Fantastic Four survived a held-back lightning from Thor which was calced at 8-A.

Also, you are aware that most characters would be locked in 9-C if we suddenly started separating AP and Durability like that, right? Specially since Newton's Third Law is a thing.

 

[Antvasima]

For a verse that is so ridiculously inconsistent as Marvel, it technically is. Writers also make mistakes and are not infallible.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

For a verse that is so ridiculously inconsistent as Marvel, it technically is. Writers also make mistakes and are not infallible.

It isn't. There's no difference in using this argument for Marvel or any other Verse in fiction.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Writers also make mistakes and are not infallible.

I agree. Like that time a Flash writer said that a feat calculated at Trillions of Times Faster-Than-Light was Relativistic+.

Simply showing superhuman durability feats for a character with superhuman durability isn't a mistake.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the problem is that I have never remotely seen any street tier Marvel character perform an 8-A destructive feat. If I had, I would be much less skeptical regarding this.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I'm very much fine with 8-A Cap, Wolverine and other high tier Street levelers. Not only do they scale to Deadpool who has those 8-A durability feats without regenerating, but they have similar feats on their own level. Cap kept an entire skyscraper from collapsing in on itself, which would mean his sheer strength was comparable to the shear strength of the buildings structure. This means this feat could be anywhere from City Block level to Small Town level, with an average end at high end MCB. Not only that, but Cap has a City Block level durability feat of his own.

According to TTGL on NF, EndlessMike has calcs that put Cap and Wolverine personally at 8-A too, somewhere. If I could browse the blogs, I would see if I can find them anywhere.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Again, why do they need 8-A destructive feats when they have Tier 8 Durability feats?

Thanos' best destructive feat is Planet level but he has consistently shown to be completely unharmed by assaults from Thor, Enraged Hulk, and Silver Surfer, and beat them easily.

 

[TeenAngel101]

I'm not saying the feats would be complete outliers. Just that it scales to more people than it should is the problem, especially when they scale to others who scale to him (Black Panther, Wolverine, Beast). It also seems strange that characters like Gambit aren't 8-A. After all, Gambit is listed as 8-A physically, his explosions vary depending on the objects, which could contribute to how Cap shrugged it off with no issue. He also consistently beats the shit out of Wolverine. As does everyone.

BTW, isn't the joke about Wolverine supposed to be he acts like a super-cool badass, when in actuality everyone is stronger and more useful than him?

 

[Antvasima]

It isn't. There's no difference in using this argument for Marvel or any other Verse in fiction.

Marvel is recogniceable icon and franchise-centered, and features hundreds of writers and intermingling storylines, rather than following a single plot to its conclusion. As a result, it isn't nearly as coherent.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think that Gambit isn't 8-A Physically. But his explosives are at least Building level with how his cards one-shot Sentinels.

I would rather delete the profile for now since it is unreliable.

 

[Antvasima]

I am fine with scaling Cap from supporting a skyscraper, if there is a calculation. I am just doubtful about scaling everybody from Deadpool's apparent outlier durability feats.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@ant

You could still use this argument for literally any long-running series ever. Like Star Wars, Warhammer 40,000, Doctor Who, Supernatural TMNT, Transformers, Dragon Ball, etc etc.

All of these are series with tons of authors over decades of stories and the inevitable contradictions that follow.

We rank the Primarchs from Warhammer 40,000 at Solar System level through scaling but there are books where you'd be hard pressed to believe they are Tier 8 during most of the story, since they use Bolter Guns and high-end weaponry like Plasma are things they need armour to survive.

But then in the same book that happens a Primarch survives having a mountain thrown on top of him and punches his way from the millions of tons of rubble.

Fiction is inherently inconsistent.

 

[Meosos]

I am fine with certain high level street fighters as 8-A, as long as we not only scale them from Deadpool and have at least one feat to support there AP

 

[Antvasima]

Well, Marvel is the only one I know of where it is possible to scale characters that are normally 9-B to High 1-B cosmic entities.

 

[TeenAngel101]

I'm totally fine with them being 8-A. It's just that I believe more justification than Deadpool's Durability is required. Could someone calc the feats Dark mentioned? Like the skyscraper feat?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also, the reason I'm okay with 8-A Cap is that Punisher, Frank Castle, who is supposed to be one of the most grounded and realistic of the Marvel Heroes, and definitely one of the weakest who has to rely on guns and dirty fighting all the time, has blatant Room and Small Building level feats.

Dude survives grenades to the face, Alien Rocket Launcher shots, Flamethrowers, large explosions, being tossed 100 feet into the air and falling onto a car flattening it, and also strapped a landmine to his chest and blew it up, and didn't harm his skin.

Marvel "Peak Humans" are inherently ridiculous. It's just like Metal Gear Solid, where Snake is just the strongest soldier who ever lived, with no superhuman enhancements or superpowers, but he is constantly doing impossible things like surviving missiles from Bipedal Tanks, lifting building-sized robots, dodging bullets, keeping up with Cyborg Ninjas, resisting 10,000,000 Volts of Electricity, etc.

 

[TeenAngel101]

If what Dark said is true, Cap's skyscraper feat could better justify Low 7-C Spiderman as well.