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LordGriffin1000

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The lightspeed Ghost Ray was recently removed from the profiles due to the reasons on this thread. However I believe the Ghost Ray does fit enough of our requirements to be considered legitimate light/lasers and lightspeed.

Below is a blog containing the evidence, just click the "New Analysis" tabber at the top of the blog to see the revised evidence.


If accepted, the following calcs will be re-added to the profiles and verse page as support evidence to the already accepted speed ratings.



Here is just a list to keep tabs on who agrees/disagrees or are neutral. Note some of the user's agreed on the blog itself so if you don't see a comment from them in the comment section it means they commented in the blog.

Agree: 8 (BlastX, ElixerBlue, ShadowChild'sReaper, DarkDragonMedus, Firestorm808, Elizaa, GilverTheProtoAngelo, KingTempest)

Disagree: 1 (Mr. Bambu)

Neutral:
 
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After reading the blog I say I'm okay with it. As Griffin has pointed out the evidence presented does show that the ghost ray looks to be a fine match for all of the requirements. One thing the show has is consistency in being either consistent or consistently inconsistent. But it's hardly every just blatantly inconsistent.

Most arguments against it or at least the ones I can think of are overwhelmed by the more prominent evidence supporting it.
 
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I'm not that well verse in Danny Phantom but I will agree since it seems you've complied a lot of receipts and evidence
 

Mr._Bambu

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I disagree with it being light. A lot of this evidence isn't actually support for it being light speed (for example, "ghosts being able to make light" doesn't equate to "their beam attacks are light"). Furthermore, reading the previous thread gives more concrete evidence against than this thread gives in favor, I feel. For example, ghost things just phasing through physical objects is a pretty major trait that goes against the characteristics of light. Frankly, without a specific statement of ghost rays being light, I don't think we should equate them at all. Ever. I think your most concrete evidence is unusable- Butch Hartman's reaction is fairly definite, but then we have WoG and Death of the Author so it just... isn't usable.

Jot me down as opposed.
 

LordGriffin1000

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I disagree with it being light. A lot of this evidence isn't actually support for it being light speed (for example, "ghosts being able to make light" doesn't equate to "their beam attacks are light"). Furthermore, reading the previous thread gives more concrete evidence against than this thread gives in favor, I feel. For example, ghost things just phasing through physical objects is a pretty major trait that goes against the characteristics of light. Frankly, without a specific statement of ghost rays being light, I don't think we should equate them at all. Ever. I think your most concrete evidence is unusable- Butch Hartman's reaction is fairly definite, but then we have WoG and Death of the Author so it just... isn't usable.

Jot me down as opposed.
Alright so I'm going to go over this piece by piece to make it easy.

"I disagree with it being light. A lot of this evidence isn't actually support for it being light speed (for example, "ghosts being able to make light" doesn't equate to "their beam attacks are light")."

You do realize that I'm trying to prove it's light which is a part of it being light speed right?. Nowhere did I say "ghosts being able to create light = their beam attacks are lightspeed". That was simply just me explaining that they can create light to show it's nothing new to them so I don't get what you're saying here.

You picked a single part of the blog that was only meant to showcase them being able to create light. When I specifically put a section directly talking about speed called "Ghost Ray and Speed" in which I explained that it being lightspeed is actually consistent when the calcs involving the Ghost Ray actually match up with our current calcs for the verses current speed rating. Not to mention the author statement in which Butch outright agreed with them being light/lightspeed.

"Furthermore, reading the previous thread gives more concrete evidence against than this thread gives in favor, I feel. For example, ghost things just phasing through physical objects is a pretty major trait that goes against the characteristics of light."

I don't see how there is more evidence against it. Your example doesn't work because I explained that I screwed up on that on the whole intangible ghost ray in the original blog.

To go into detail. The Ghost Ray isn't naturally intangible, it hits real world objects and interacts with them accordingly as I blatantly showed with in the blog with the mirror and magnifying glass. If it always phased through everything that effect wouldn't have happened.

I even explained at the beginning of the blog the nature of ectoplasmic energy and how it's properties changed when they form it into something else like data, technology, fire and of course light. So the previous argument in the other thread regarding "ghost things phasing through physical objects" is unusable since it doesn't apply to the Ghost Ray which is shown to not pass through physical objects naturally.

"Frankly, without a specific statement of ghost rays being light, I don't think we should equate them at all. Ever."

That's the entire reason for the blog.... I provided the evidence that proves it's light without the statement you're asking for. It's entirely possible to equat two things without a direct statement and Danny Phantom does this via showing and telling.

Shadow is a being of darkness who's only harmed by light as proven in the series. Danny was completely unable to due it harm until he used the Ghost Ray which we visually see cause it harm and dazed it, to which Danny instantly new light was It's weakness and said "So bright light effects it". He then fully proves this by catching Shadow in the light of a movie projector and later we see it effected by stadium lights.

So not only does it have the exact same effect on Shadow as actual light does and we know Shadow's only weakness is light, we have visual evidence of ghosts being able to create and project light so saying Danny can't project this into a beam is ridiculous especially since the Ghost Ray actually shows properties of being light such as when Danny used it in combination with a magnifying glass to expand it and catch Shadow's entire body and in another episode it reflects off a mirror.

Also, I explained earlier in the blog under the "Ectoplasmic Energy" section that when they change their ectoplasmic energy into something else it basically becomes that as shown with Skulker's battlesuit being actual technology and capable of being hacked by real world technology, Undergrowth's plants which grow and die like actual plants, and Technus and Danny as data being the same as normal data. So the Ghost Ray in all likelihood is light, especially when we have Butch Hartman agreeing with it.

Which brings me to your last point.

"I think your most concrete evidence is unusable- Butch Hartman's reaction is fairly definite, but then we have WoG and Death of the Author so it just... isn't usable."

You can't just claim "Death of the Author" and ignore Butch Hartman's word, that is wrong, especially when we have other verses on this site that utilize author statements so long as they are backed up by the stuff in verse and or if the author is not consistent with statements.

Butch Hartman's word is valid here because the Ghost Ray actually has backing of being light and as I pointed out in the blog in a previous video he did before the Death Battle was announced, Butch stated Danny could create light which is shown in the series.

Hell I just recently utilized a statement from Butch Hartman in a previous thread and it got accepted because it had supporting evidence from the actual show itself. So what's the difference here? Butch Hartman has always been consistent when talking about actual Canon stuff like in his Ghost Zone Secrets video in which he provides actual clips from the show itself and when it came to the stuff he didn't clip like the unique ectoplasmic energy and OP Crown of Fire and Ring of Rage, that stuff is also supported in the series.

Butch basically tells us when he's talking non canon stuff like when he brought up things that didn't appear in the show or in his Danny Phantom 10 years later, Danny Phantom Graduation, or the latest on about Danny's lost brother which he dubbed a "Phan Fantasy" aka non-canon. So I see nothing wrong using his word on this.

I'll create an section on those who agree or disagree with the OP.

Note: I'm heading off to bed and won't be commenting until later tomorrow, got a busy day tomorrow. I'll comment to any replies when I get the chance.
 

Mr._Bambu

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"You do realize that I'm trying to prove it's light which is a part of it being light speed right?. Nowhere did I say "ghosts being able to create light = their beam attacks are lightspeed". That was simply just me explaining that they can create light to show it's nothing new to them so I don't get what you're saying here."

Yes. And I'm saying that point doesn't matter.

"You picked a single part of the blog that was only meant to showcase them being able to create light. When I specifically put a section directly talking about speed called "Ghost Ray and Speed" in which I explained that it being lightspeed is actually consistent when the calcs involving the Ghost Ray actually match up with our current calcs for the verses current speed rating. Not to mention the author statement in which Butch outright agreed with them being light/lightspeed."

I picked a single example of why I feel your points fall short. I don't care if it is consistent with our current calcs, this has no bearing on my evaluation. Something can act as legitimate light whether the feats surrounding it are Infinite, Sub-Rel or Subsonic. The author statement means nothing as we can't use WoG on this site. You should know this, Griffon.

"I don't see how there is more evidence against it. Your example doesn't work because I explained that I screwed up on that on the whole intangible ghost ray in the original blog.

To go into detail. The Ghost Ray isn't naturally intangible, it hits real world objects and interacts with them accordingly as I blatantly showed with in the blog with the mirror and magnifying glass. If it always phased through everything that effect wouldn't have happened.

I even explained at the beginning of the blog the nature of ectoplasmic energy and how it's properties changed when they form it into something else like data, technology, fire and of course light. So the previous argument in the other thread regarding "ghost things phasing through physical objects" is unusable since it doesn't apply to the Ghost Ray which is shown to not pass through physical objects naturally."

I do.

This ostensibly doesn't matter. The fact that it can do the latter at all sort of negates the point. Just because they can choose whether it is intangible or not doesn't negate the fact that it can display traits that are not aligned with natural light.


"That's the entire reason for the blog.... I provided the evidence that proves it's light without the statement you're asking for. It's entirely possible to equat two things without a direct statement and Danny Phantom does this via showing and telling."

I understand what the purpose is, Lord, and I'm telling you that based on the evidence against it, your blog's proof isn't enough for me. It is possible to equate two things, Danny Phantom does not achieve this. Gonna forego going through the next handful of things since these are just... the evidence from your blog?

"You can't just claim "Death of the Author" and ignore Butch Hartman's word, that is wrong, especially when we have other verses on this site that utilize author statements so long as they are backed up by the stuff in verse and or if the author is not consistent with statements."

...I can. I don't care what other verses do. We very explicitly don't use author statements. This instance isn't backed up by in-universe stuff.

"Butch Hartman's word is valid here because the Ghost Ray actually has backing of being light and as I pointed out in the blog in a previous video he did before the Death Battle was announced, Butch stated Danny could create light which is shown in the series."

I disagree.

The rest of your points seem to hinge on me accepting Butch Hartman making statements outside of the canon of the game, so... sorry, I guess. I don't mean to just disregard your points. But WoG ain't usable. If you need proof of this, feel free to reference our Editing Rules- it says it pretty plainly.

Sorry Griffon.
 
Agree with the Lightspeed justifications..

The magnifying glass focusing and mirror reflection are alone good enough evidence for LS in my opinion.
 

LordGriffin1000

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"You do realize that I'm trying to prove it's light which is a part of it being light speed right?. Nowhere did I say "ghosts being able to create light = their beam attacks are lightspeed". That was simply just me explaining that they can create light to show it's nothing new to them so I don't get what you're saying here."

Yes. And I'm saying that point doesn't matter.

"You picked a single part of the blog that was only meant to showcase them being able to create light. When I specifically put a section directly talking about speed called "Ghost Ray and Speed" in which I explained that it being lightspeed is actually consistent when the calcs involving the Ghost Ray actually match up with our current calcs for the verses current speed rating. Not to mention the author statement in which Butch outright agreed with them being light/lightspeed."

I picked a single example of why I feel your points fall short. I don't care if it is consistent with our current calcs, this has no bearing on my evaluation. Something can act as legitimate light whether the feats surrounding it are Infinite, Sub-Rel or Subsonic. The author statement means nothing as we can't use WoG on this site. You should know this, Griffon.

"I don't see how there is more evidence against it. Your example doesn't work because I explained that I screwed up on that on the whole intangible ghost ray in the original blog.

To go into detail. The Ghost Ray isn't naturally intangible, it hits real world objects and interacts with them accordingly as I blatantly showed with in the blog with the mirror and magnifying glass. If it always phased through everything that effect wouldn't have happened.

I even explained at the beginning of the blog the nature of ectoplasmic energy and how it's properties changed when they form it into something else like data, technology, fire and of course light. So the previous argument in the other thread regarding "ghost things phasing through physical objects" is unusable since it doesn't apply to the Ghost Ray which is shown to not pass through physical objects naturally."

I do.

This ostensibly doesn't matter. The fact that it can do the latter at all sort of negates the point. Just because they can choose whether it is intangible or not doesn't negate the fact that it can display traits that are not aligned with natural light.


"That's the entire reason for the blog.... I provided the evidence that proves it's light without the statement you're asking for. It's entirely possible to equat two things without a direct statement and Danny Phantom does this via showing and telling."

I understand what the purpose is, Lord, and I'm telling you that based on the evidence against it, your blog's proof isn't enough for me. It is possible to equate two things, Danny Phantom does not achieve this. Gonna forego going through the next handful of things since these are just... the evidence from your blog?

"You can't just claim "Death of the Author" and ignore Butch Hartman's word, that is wrong, especially when we have other verses on this site that utilize author statements so long as they are backed up by the stuff in verse and or if the author is not consistent with statements."

...I can. I don't care what other verses do. We very explicitly don't use author statements. This instance isn't backed up by in-universe stuff.

"Butch Hartman's word is valid here because the Ghost Ray actually has backing of being light and as I pointed out in the blog in a previous video he did before the Death Battle was announced, Butch stated Danny could create light which is shown in the series."

I disagree.

The rest of your points seem to hinge on me accepting Butch Hartman making statements outside of the canon of the game, so... sorry, I guess. I don't mean to just disregard your points. But WoG ain't usable. If you need proof of this, feel free to reference our Editing Rules- it says it pretty plainly.

Sorry Griffon.
I planned on replying to you comment fully but I felt it was a waste of time since it would just be a back and fourth thing. However this comment you made is wrong.

"The rest of your points seem to hinge on me accepting Butch Hartman making statements outside of the canon of the game, so... sorry, I guess. I don't mean to just disregard your points. But WoG ain't usable. If you need proof of this, feel free to reference our Editing Rules- it says it pretty plainly."

Well I did decide to take a look at the Editing Rules page and it turns out you were not taking into account the entire rule.

* When a statement from a character, guidebook, or even word of god contradicts what occurs in the series, they won't be used. For example, if an author says that a character from his work is incapable of shattering planets, even though it has destroyed galaxies on-screen, we will always go with the latter, rather than the former. The statement need to be consistent with what has been revealed within the fictional franchise itself. Otherwise, it will be considered invalid.

* Author statements will only be accepted when they clarify what has been shown or implied in the series itself, and will be rejected when they contradict what has been shown to the audience. Statements that technically do not contradict anything shown in the series will still be rejected if there is no evidence that they are accurate.

Your previous comments even before this one make it sound as if we don't accept WoG period but looking at the Editing Rules we do except WoG statements so long as they are consistent or have evidence that supports from the series that supports it and I have proven that the Ghost Ray have some properties of being actual light going off our Light/Laser page so Butch Hartman's agreeing with the beams is valid and could be used as support.
 
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Mr._Bambu

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Yes. If they simply validated what was already presented, that's one thing. But your statements don't fit this description, I feel, given the contradictory features of the Ghost Rays. The nail in the coffin for your argument would be if we took Butch Hartman's statements at explicit face value- but doing so is contradictory to what we see in some places. Thus the rule applies.
 

LordGriffin1000

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Yes. If they simply validated what was already presented, that's one thing. But your statements don't fit this description, I feel, given the contradictory features of the Ghost Rays. The nail in the coffin for your argument would be if we took Butch Hartman's statements at explicit face value- but doing so is contradictory to what we see in some places. Thus the rule applies.
My description does fit it as I've provided evidence but you haven't provided any real evidence against it though... you simply are hanging on to the argument of it being intangible and Butch's word not being valid which I blatantly proved is not the case. Them being able to turn their attacks intangible is irrelevant because they don't turn the Ghost Ray intangible, plus turing something intangible doesn't prove anything, just that it they have the power to turn themselves and their attacks intangible. You keep saying contradictory features but you've only brought up a single point about the Ghost Ray that I've explained isn't true. Example, someone uses a flamethrower on Danny and then he used his energy to turn the fire intangible so it passed through him, does that mean it's no longer fire?.

All the evidence against the Ghost Ray isn't even a lot and is not only flimsy, it's misinterpreted/taken out of context. Let's go over these "contradictory features" of the Ghost Ray you claim there are from the previous thread.

1. A "fireball that explodes" doesn't line up with the requirement of traveling in a straight line.

And a explotion is a big contradiction for something to be considered light-speed, because light is not something that can be a shockwave that push things afar via pressure like your every day explotion.

Exploding into bright light is not proof either, there are several things that emit light; plasma, fluorescent substances, heated metals, and you know, several explotions.


The was the first argument presented in the debunk thread and it's laughable because he completely took what I said out of context.

For one, that wasn't evidence for the Ghost Ray being lightspeed, that was simply evidence that ghosts can create/project light as I pointed out in the New Analysis of the blog, the OP is misinterpreting my use of this showing.

The second this is the OP says "A fireball that explodes" doesn't line up with the requirement of traveling in a straight line".
.. nowhere did I say a fireball exploded nor did I say it is proof of traveling in a straight line. I said Danny fires a ball of ectoplasmic energy that exploded into light and if the OP actually looked at the damn scan it doesn't actually explode with shockwave/force/pressure, it simply just releases light. Also the Ghost Ray actually is a beam that only travels in a straight line so this point is moot, again this showing was just to show they could create light.

So the OP's argument that light exploding is contradictory is flat out wrong because it didn't explode with force, I used the word explode in the sense of it releasing light and we visually see the GiW aren't pushed by the "explosion", they simply get blinding and his argument about other things like plasma, fluorescent substances, heated metals and explosion producing light is irrelevant because that wasn't a ball of plasma, a fluorescent substance, heated metal or an explosion! It was a ball of Danny's ectoplasmic energy that he altered to emit light and nothing more.

This is why I added the section on "Ectoplasmic Energy" in the New Analysis of the blog to explain that they are changing their ectoplasmic energy into another substance that takes on the properties of the new form and acts accordingly. So already the first argument against the Ghost Ray is debunked as it wasn't even the Ghost Ray being talked about and the OP blatantly took the scene out of context and called it a "fireball" and said it was an explosion with "force/pressure" when it visibly wasn't. The GIW were blinded and simply feel off their vehicles.

On to the second argument.

2. None of this is evidence.

Light is not intangible in the same way as someone like Vision goes intangible, you can block the light of a flashlight with your hand and it won't pass through it. Light can go through either transparent or really thin materials, but it doesn't move between walls or floors. This is not proof but just the ghost's intangible abilities.


I already pointed out that this was a mistake on my part. The Ghost Ray isn't intangible, it is actually physical as I blatantly showed in the blog, we've seen it physically interact with the magnifying glass and mirror, we've seen hit walls and such so nothing is inconsistent here and as the OP stated himself ghosts being able to turn things intangible is just their intangible abilities at work.

The Ghost Ray is physical by default unlike ectoplasmic energy as shown multiple times in the series. Ghosts half to activate their intangibility effect to turn their attacks that are no longer ectoplasmic energy in order for it to phase through something. So what's the argument here anymore? I already explained that this was a mistake on my part and that the Ghost Ray is not intangible by default as it's no longer simply ectoplasmic energy.

So unless you provide a new argument this one can't be used as it doesn't apply to the Ghost Ray unless they actively utilize their ability to turn things intangible which in no way means the Ghost Ray isn't light, just that they have the ability to turn things intangible.

On to the third argument.

3. Some of the videos directly show that ghost rays move at different speeds, the beam from Technus took seconds to cover a room, while the one that blasted Nocturn covered a greater distance in less time (Not only that but the beams pushed the characters, which is not part of light).

This is just wrong, first of all, Technus didn't even shot a Ghost Ray!!!, he shot a blast of ectoplasmic energy so that's not even usable and I stated in the blog you need to prove what their using is the Ghost Ray. Also you can't use logic like this otherwise I could go countless other verses were we see attacks hit characters that are fast as fuck but takes seconds visually to reach them and use that evidence to downgrade them but I don't because it's fucking stupid!. The animators aren't gonna animate everything as fast as it should be otherwise everytime someone attacks in any fiction we as the viewer shouldn't be able to see it because the characters are rated faster than our perception.

Finally, the whole light not being able to push things is irrelevant since that's not on our list of requirements. Also lasers push objects so... Hell, we have other verses with accepted lightspeed - light based attacks that harm people and explode!!! But oh no Danny's Ghost Ray pushed someone so no go?.

So what actual arguments are there against the Ghost Ray that don't involve taking things out if context, using the intangibility argument which doesn't apply anymore, or the argument of visual speed viewers see that would effect every verse in fiction that has visuals?

Edit:

I'd like to apologize if this post sounds negative and very rude but rereading those arguments I posted from the previous thread got on my nerves due to some of the misinterpreting/out of context stuff.
 
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