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D&D: More Revisions (Deities)

I mean. Ao just being infinitely superior to 2-A beings is High 2-A. That's the point I was making. This is a 2-A feat, but so are feats like Mystras and so forth.

Lady of Pain, to be comparable to Ao's status, must be infinitely superior to beings like Vecna when he was ascending to Greater God status. A 2-A threat.
 
Lady of Pain, to be comparable to Ao's status, must be infinitely superior to beings like Vecna when he was ascending to Greater God status. A 2-A threat

She IS. She cannot stop him that time because she would have destroyed the multiverse just for merely try it. That's why players had to do it. Not because she is unable, but because she didn't want to destroy all just to kill Vecna.

Yet, right after that whole stuff, she changed the rules of the multiverse so that no other god could attempt what Vecna ever again.
 
But she doesn't show that, she just shows the ability to easily overpower 2-As like Vecna (as in, fodderize them with a casual movement), not be infinitely superior. A 7-C attacking a 10-B may seem like infinite, but it isn't. 2-A is an infinitely wide tier. Unless we see she is infinitely superior, then she is just a "likely higher".
 
Unless we see she is infinitely superior, then she is just a "likely higher".

Does the aforementioned link that states the LoP can re-order the whole reality does not mean she is higher than a guy that cannot stop something that comes from outside his realm?
 
No, because Ao's reasoning is differnet than that.

She has to be infinitely superior to a 2-A; Ao transcends 2-A characters, hence High 2-A. By this tiering system, LoP would have a "possibly" since she literally fodderizes said 2-A to such a degree that even her restrained power is enough to potentially destroy the multiverse.

But that isn't infinite, that'd just make her one of the strongest 2-As on site.
 
She has to be infinitely superior to a 2-A; Ao transcends 2-A characters, hence High 2-A.

In fact, that statement is inaccurate. It's true that Ao control the gods of Realmspace, but only within Realmspace. He can control Lolth's aspect in Toril, but he cannot control Lolth's aspect in Oerth. This is explained in more detail in Faiths and Pantheons (3.x FR sourcebook). That's why some deities of Realmspace are interested in become multi-spheric after the Time of Troubles, to escape Ao's limitations.

That's why I've mentioned earlier that Ao is absolute within his sphere, but not outside of it. He only has control over Abeir-Toril, not anything outside that.
 
Again, this isn't the reason Ao is High 2-A. He is shown to be infinitely superior to 2-A beings (as in, beings that can damage on a multiversal scale). This alone gives him a High 2-A rating in this system. Much like Lumi doesn't need feats for being Low 1-C aside from being infinitely superior to Ao, Ao only needs to be infinitely superior to beings of multiversal power to be 2-A.

I'm not disregarding your scans, mind you, I think you're very knowledgeable, but they wouldn't affect his rating. Lady of Pain does not show infinitely superior strength, merely VASTLY superior strength, putting her on the highest end of 2-A as a baseline. She certainly has a possibiliy of High 2-A, but we'd need to prove she was infinitely superior to someone like Vecna at full power.
 
Where even is the statement of Ao completely transcending 2-A gods/being infinitely beyond them, anyway?

I'm a little confused, as if being completely unable to stop the spellplague doesn't disqualify Ao from potentially being High 2-A, why does the Lady's showing against Vecna potentially disqualify her? We know for a fact she has killed a Greater Deity (and one who, at the time, was believed to be among the most powerful/influential in the entire multiverse) with a thought in a single moment, and that the mere act of revealing her true form would destroy the multiverse.

We even have canon reason as to why she didn't stop Vecna on her own, which was that should she have used enough power to do so, the mere act would have destroyed everything.

If anything, Ao being superior to the Lady seems like speculation, especially since he's said to do so because he views even the mightiest of Greater Deities as nothing, but so does the Lady. I don't think her having a "possibly/likely High 2-A" is too far fetched if Ao is deemed worthy of High 2-A.
 
@Zeromaru X

Isn't Highgod from Krynn another one sphere overdeity?

Plus didn't the 3e reboot make all the different realms separate multverses? Although guess that doesn't matter since 5e recombined everything.

As for creation myths I can think of a lot more for multiverse creation. Greeks had one, Egyptians had one, one myth said Asmodeus helped out, and I think the Celts but I'm not 100% sure.
 
To give my thoughts, if we keep the High 2A rating for Ao I think we should remove any mention to the LOP.
 
Ao being unable to halt the spellplague would make the Spellplague stronger than a High 2-A event (so... something caused by Lumi? I don't know). But Ao being infinitely above a 2-A would be High 2-A, yes? He is to the point that he can destroy them and their power with a thought, which was an acceptable reason previously in the thread (somewhere). If not, I'm okay with having Ao on the high-end of 2-A, I'm just more inclined to place him at High 2-A based on his superiority to any 2-A.

LoP's interaction with Vecna wouldn't intrinsically make her unable to be High 2-A, it's just that she wasn't infinitely superior to him, merely so much that a small fraction of her power could be used to overpower him, and her full power would destroy the multiverse.

If I'm getting something confused, let me know, but to my knowledge, that isn't High 2-A, just laughably superior to Vecna, who would be somewhere near baseline 2-A.
 
> Ao being unable to halt the spellplague would make the Spellplague stronger than a High 2-A event (so... something caused by Lumi? I don't know).

The Spellplague was caused by Cyric killing Mystra along with his madness corrupting the weave because of a Far Realm amp. The Luminous Being wasn't mentioned at all. As for it being High 2A it wasn't that, its just that Ao's powers cannot affect anything outside of his sphere and since the Far Realm is outside of it he could do nothing about it.

> just laughably superior to Vecna, who would be somewhere near baseline 2-A.

Vecna during that story arc was one of the stronger Greater Gods considering a vast reaching Planar Great Power was instantly killed by her.


@Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot My guess would be this quotewhere his power was described as "Ao lies beyond the bounds of ranking of deities' powers in any way." If not then a similar quote saying he transcends divine rankings.
 
Yeah, I know, but Lumi regularly isn't mentioned even if he is generally attributed with controlling the D&D verse. But yeah, that'd also make sense.

Anybutt. LoP doesn't have the showings of being infinitely superior, merely laughably superior.
 
Isn't Highgod from Krynn another one sphere overdeity?

Indeed, he is the Overpower of that pantheon.

Again, this isn't the reason Ao is High 2-A. He is shown to be infinitely superior to 2-A beings (as in, beings that can damage on a multiversal scale).

I would have to ask a source for this, because Ao can only affect gods native to Abeir-Toril or the aspects of interloper deities on Abeir-Toril, but he could not affect the aspects of those same deities on other spheres (as aspects are local, individual beings in the spheres). I mean, if Ao kills Lolth (a multi-spheric god), only Lolth's aspect in Realmspace dies. The Lolths from Oerth, Eberron, and whatever other setting will be alive and unaffected by this. This is explained in Faiths and Pantheons. I leave the links here.

https://i.imgur.com/CXBPszo.png https://i.imgur.com/kgsGYFG.png

Lady of Pain, on the other hand, erased Aoskar from ALL spheres, not just her sphere (Sigil). The guy was killed in all the multiverse. That makes her either equal to Ao or even stronger than him.

My point is, Ao is High 2-A, but only within the bounds of his sphere (Abeir-Toril). Outside of it, he is not that powerful, and he cannot affect anything that is not from his sphere. If we pit Ao vs an aspect of Demogorgon from, you say Oerth, the odds are that Ao would lose, even if he would utterly crush Demogorgon's aspect from Toril.

Ao being unable to halt the spellplague would make the Spellplague stronger than a High 2-A event

I did posted the screen. The reason is clear. Ao could not stop it because the Spellplague is powered up from something outside his sphere of power (energies from the Far Realm), not because the Spellplague is something powerful.

To quote: Because the Far Realm is completely outside of creation, not even Ao's power could have prevented the Spellplague once Shar's plan was carried out.

Heck, the Spellplague only affected Abeir-Toril multiverse, not the whole D&D multiverse (yeah, those are separate things). Worlds like Nentir Vale, Athas or Eberron (the other settings that got sourcebooks in 4e) were untouched by it, at least canonically (as there are no mentions of the Spellplague on materials for these settings, not even as optional for DMs. And in 4e, the astral dominions/outer planes and elemental realms are local for their respective universes). It's not something on the level of the Abyssal Plague, that did affected those worlds.

He is to the point that he can destroy them and their power with a thought, which was an acceptable reason previously in the thread (somewhere).

As stated before, he would kill only their aspects within Realmspace, but their aspects on other spheres would be unaffected. That means he isn't able to affect multiversal beings.

LoP's interaction with Vecna wouldn't intrinsically make her unable to be High 2-A

This statement is innacurate, for two reasons.

1. And the most important, Vecna was affecting the multiverse because he was a god, and his divine nature affected the fulcrum of the multiverse. Not because Vecna had the actual power to affecting the multiverse, only because divine power affects the fulcrum. This means that any god can do this if he or she goes to Sigil. That's why the adventure always state that Vecna was cheating. And he needed the power of another being (stated by the adventure to be on the same level of power than the Lady) to do this. Was not only just his power.

2. The Lady CHOOSE not to fight against Vecna, because if she does so she would have destroyed the fulcrum by just releasing her true form, and destroying the multiverse. Not because she was powerless, but because she didn't wanted to destroy the multiverse.
 
The source is what is linked, Ao's description. He is infinitely superior to the combined might of all gods (granted, within his sphere). These gods have 2-A feats. Ergo, High 2-A. Lady of Pain erased a being from all spheres (I'll believe you, you're pretty damn knowledgeable)? I honestly have no idea what that'd be, since we can safely call a sphere a multiverse.

Ao has High 2-A power. You agree to that. What his power is outside of his realm of existence doesn't mean much to me, as his AP in god form is High 2-A. If you like, add a 10-C or whatever for him if you take him out of realmspace, he's 10-C in all versus threads. But his feats are High 2-A, is my point.
 
Oh. In response to the Vecna stuff. That really doesn't change their ratings much. That feat is in the bounds of 2-A because it was affecting an infinite multiverse. That doesn't make LoP High 2-A.
 
Ergo, High 2-A. Lady of Pain erased a being from all spheres (I'll believe you, you're pretty damn knowledgeable)?

Multi-spheric gods that die only loss their aspect on the sphere they are killed, but their other aspects on other spheres survive, unaffected by the event. Aoskar is one of the few gods that once one of his aspects was killed, he was killed for reals.

There are other gods that have had this destiny, but usually are those killed on their own home plane or those that lost all faithful and were forgotten. For what we do know, Aoskar wasn't killed on his home plane (as Aoskar never went directly to Sigil, and the Lady cannot leave the Cage).

In response to the Vecna stuff. That really doesn't change their ratings much. That feat is in the bounds of 2-A because it was affecting an infinite multiverse. That doesn't make LoP High 2-A.

Neither would make Vecna high 2-A, because is something that even a lesser deity can do with just being near the fulcrum of the multiverse. As I said, is not a feat made by Vecna's own power, but only a collateral effect of him being a god.
 
I honestly have no idea what that'd be, since we can safely call a sphere a multiverse.

The concept of the multiverse is... confusing in D&D. But it seems that there are many Material Planes (there is the "canon"/as published MP, and the other MPs are the reflections of that one, ie. if I DM, I do it in a MP different from the published one). Within the Material Planes are the spheres, that are the settings.

The Planes seem to be unique for all the material planes, but it seems that, like deities, each outer Plane has a local manifestation that different than the other local manifestation of the Planes in other MPs.

At least, that is the state of things as of 5e.
 
And yeah, I was never stating that Ao is not 2-A. My question is why he is stated to be stronger than LoP, as she is something from outside of his sphere, meaning she will be stronger than him just because of that. The only way Ao could overpower LoP would be if LoP made a local, Torilian aspect (something she cannot do, as she cannot leave Sigil).
 
> Neither would make Vecna high 2-A, because is something that even a lesser deity can do with just being near the fulcrum of the multiverse.

Not even a lesser god. Even a demigod is enough to accelerate the process .


> each outer Plane has a local manifestation that different than the other local manifestation of the Planes in other MPs.

2e explained it in a similar way. Every plane is infinite in size so the various gods just have "sections" that they own. For example Set's home plane is just a section of one of the Nine Hells. Although some Gods/Groups basically own an entire planar layer in 2e (such as Hades or Hel)


> At least, that is the state of things as of 5e.

In 3e every multiverse was seperate but you could travel to any one of them through the Shadow Plane . So for example you could start on Oerth then travel to Toril then to the Olympia, Asgardia, or Pharaonic multiverse. Or to other weird multiverses like this one.
 
Another question: how do you rank beings that exist from before gods (and demons, and primordials), such as the obyriths, the loths or the alignments themselves?
 
The surviving Obyriths are roughly comparable to the Demon Princes, so I'd say they're comparable or comparable but on average slightly weaker. Yugoloths seem to be comparable to the other lower plane monsters but lack the heavier hitters. As for the alignments I don't know since I don't remember anything saying they're sentient.
 
Actually I do remember that the Yugoloth's own a chair that controls all the diseases in the multiverse. So that's pretty nifty.
 
They are. Or at least were, at beginning of the D&D multiverse. If we go by the baernaloth creation myths, the "main" alignments (law, chaos, good and evil) fought against each other for eons before reaching a stalemate because all were equally powerful. They then created agents and champions to change the odds of battle. Evil created the loths (either the yugoloths or the baernaloths, they still dispute who is the original race). This is in the Planescape sourcebook about the Blood War.

Some loths believe he Abyss is a representation of Chaos itself, and even now is sentient (3e Fiendish Codexes state the Abyss is the will that control all demons). 4e had the Accordant Expanse, that is a multiverse that exist outside the normal multiverse (much like the Far Realm) that its Order (Law) itself as well.
 
Without more information about the myths/verification of it, I'd say they'd be just more varying degrees of 2A. None of the four can really get any higher without statements saying they're transcendent or infinitely above the Gods.
 
LoP may be stronger based on that point, but that is more due to a story-based weakness on Ao's point rather than LoP showing signs of High 2-Aness.

As for Obyrinths and such being 2-A... I'm unsure. From what I could tell, they collectively destroyed their past universe, which seemed to imply a prime material plane (and all the planes and such that go along with such a realm). Based on this, they would have showings of 2-A.

That said, I'd be more comfortable leaving this as a "Possibly 2-A" for them,and even then it'd be pretty much baseline 2-A. So their ratings would be "At least Low 2-C, likely 2-C, possibly 2-A". Save for Orcus with The Last Word, which would be 2-A (Source: Dead Gods) as it showed Tenebrous (Orcus' lesser resurrected form) going around slaying gods, even though it slowly but surely killed him, too.
 
Nah. Orcus' Last Word power (the one that let him kill gods) instant kills Wizard. As in, if any character tried to use it, they died.
 
That was a joke. Although it's consistent with a statement in my book that if Orcus suceeds all planes of existence will resemble his layer of the abyss.
 
So what are the TLDR conclusions here?
 
Likely not even done yet, what with new ideas being brought about. I'll summarize what we have so far, since the last edit spree.

  • Lady of Pain: Not sure if we have any agreement.
  • Ao: Definitely High 2-A, but we're not sure how that interacts with the rest of the verse
  • The Verse in General: From what I can tell, the verse has potentially infinite multiverses, each with infinite universes, each of which is infinite. Infinity stacked on infinity stacked on infinity and so on. Ao is not the Overdeity of all of this (each multiverse has an Overpower, apparently). Lumi is the ultimate being of all of this, however. Dunno what that'd mean for him, if a tier change is even needed aside from him being infinitely and transcendentally superior to a High 2-A.
  • Demon Lords and, by scaling, pretty much all lesser gods: "possibly 2-A" based on the Obyrinths, one of which controls all disease within the Multiverse and some creation myths stating that the Obyrinths destroyed their previous universe (which is somewhat implied to be a multiverse), and certain types of demons in the same creation myths state that they created multiverses.
  • Orcus: 2-A via Last Word (Insta-kills gods, even though it hurts him too)
 
Okay. Thank you for the summary.
 
> From what I can tell, the verse has potentially infinite multiverses, each with infinite universes, each of which is infinite. Infinity stacked on infinity stacked on infinity and so on.

(In 3e) There's an infinite number of multverses and a infinite number of Material planes, but, while every material plane is spacially infinite they only contain a single universe. Oerth's material plane is infinite but only contains one universe, Toril's material plane is infinite but only contains one universe, Olympus' material plane is infinite but only contains one universe, etc. While the total polyverse is 2A the individual multiverses are 2C or 2B.

> based on the Obyrinths, one of which controls all disease within the Multivers

That's the Yugoloths not the Obyrinths. It also isn't them but a chair. A random PC could sit on the chair and do the change diseases as well.

> Obyrinths destroyed their previous universe (which is somewhat implied to be a multiverse),

In 3e or 4e that'd only be 2C or 2B.
 
Okay.
 
If Ao is only High 2-A within his sphere, that is a massive weakness (and also incredibly weird and confusing), and should be noted under his "weaknesses" section. That also makes fights with him kinda difficult.

I also don't think any Lesser Deities should scale to Orcus via the Last Word, since its entire purpose is killing deities. Via the Last Word, Orcus would explicitly be >>>> Lesser Deities (and Greater Ones, maybe?), but I don't even think he has it, any more. Last Word Orcus was like explicitly divine at one point, wasn't he?
 
Yeah. D&D universes is weird yo.

And yeah, it does, but our fighting system allows paradoxes, so in theory it could take place in his universe while also outside of his own multiverse. Anything to allow the characters in their strongest form, yeah?
 
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