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D&D: More Revisions (Deities)

> as several control multiple universes at once

The world's Graz'zt controls isn't infinite post 2e. He still scales to Demogorgon, Orcus, and the Abyss creators though.

> Some are likely not infinite, granted,

Yeah, every plane is spacially infinite. It's just that the layers of said planes vary in size from mostly finite to some that are infinite.
 
Forgot that 3e explains the infinite layers fitting into infinite planes. Probably doesn't change the tiering though (I think)
 
Oh. Qawsdef, Baba Yaga is a pretty infamous character at my own table, assumed it was so for everyone. Basically, Baba Yaga is a witch that even the gods themselves fear, and she lives in a hut that runs on chicken legs.

According to this, it can be found/referenced in Eldritch Wizardry, DM Guide 1st Edition, The Book of Artifacts, and Encyclopedia Magica Vol 2.

Here's the best online description I could find.

I appear to have misunderstood the Hut on a basic level, however. Its feat would not be anywhere nearing 2-A, but rather, Low 2-C. The hut is a very simple small building on the inside, but has the ability to travel to an infinite amount of locations, be they other planes or planets or what have you, at will. This wouldn't be Low 2-C if the Hut itself didn't have another corresponding hut for each location. So the Hut has infinite duplicate huts for each location it can port to. Even if the hut was the size of an outhouse, it has infinite space. Low 2-C.
 
Yeah, that doesn't change the tier much, as demonic lords are comparable to lesser gods, who do control their own planes and to the various demonic lords that do maintain spatially infinite.

As for the infinite layers in infinite planes, no, not really. That just makes some planes multi-universal (and the Abyss is probably a low-end multiverse but still).
 
So of the calcs check out

Ao: 4A | High 2A

LOP: Expanded 2A rating explanation

Vecna: Small City to High 6A | Low 2C | 2A

Asgorath: 5C | 2A, possibly higher

Gruumish/Elf God: 5B | At least Low 2C, likely 2A

Orcus: At least Small City | Low 2C
 
@Qawsed Demonic lords would scale to High 6-A, that includes Orcus and Vecna. Asgorath would realistically scale to 5-B as he is considered a Greater Deity. As for the Baba Yaga's huts,

Here is what the ratings would realistically be:

Demigods: High 6-A (Comparable to the Abomination that was capable of heating the planet's core, should be able to battle Zargon, who created a planetary storm)

Lesser Deities/Demon Lords/Lesser Archdevils: High 6-A (Comparable to the Abomination that was capable of heating the planet's core, should be able to battle Zargon, who created a planetary storm) | At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C (Comparable to beings such as Lolth, who could bend multiple planes of reality in her image)

Vecna: High 6-A (Comparable to the Abomination that was capable of heating the planet's core, should be able to battle Zargon, who created a planetary storm) | At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C (Comparable to Lolth, who could bend multiple planes of reality in her image) | 2-A (Damaged the infinite multiverse while ascending to godhood after absorbing Iuz, briefly resisted the power of the Lady of Pain)

Greater Deities: 5-B (Capable of battling the Leviathan, which would have destroyed the world should it awaken) | 2-A (Comparable to Mystra, who damaged the infinite multiverse with the Spellplague, causing many universes to disintegrate and causing severe damage to all others when her Spellweave was destroyed)

Asmodeus: 5-B (Comparable to the greater deities themselves) | 2-A (Moved the Abyss, which is infinite in size and contains infinite layers, each of which is infinite in size)

Obyrinths: At least Low 2-C, likely 2-C, possibly much higher (Destroyed their previous universe and collectively created the Astral Sea and the Elemental Chaos, from which spawned the gods; it is heavily implied their previous universe may have been a multiverse of its own)

Ao the Overdeity: 4-A (The only time his avatar was ever seen, he wore a cloak containing millions of stars and celestial bodies within it) | High 2-A (Can take away the powers of any deity, including the Lady of Pain, with a mere thought, and ascend any being to their level of power with equally as little effort)

Asgorath: 5-B (Comparable to the greater deities in strength, should be capable of battling the Leviathan, who can destroy the world with its awakening) | 2-A (Thought to have been the creator of the infinite multiverse itself, implied to have created the Lady of Pain, comparable to other greater deities)

The calc for heating the core of the Earth was accepted, as was the planetary storm, both at High 6-A values. Planetary glacier was accepted at 6-B.

As for Baba Yaga, that's too bad, always liked the other version a lot. Must've been a homebrew thing, then, that they looked up. Oh well. Still cool for our own table.

Anybutt. If there's anything I missed, lmk. Cheers boyos.
 
Yeah ZacharyGrossman273. As for your ideas I agree with everything but three

  • Vecna shouldn't be 2A for damaging the Multiverse, just resisting the Lady of Pain. Him damaging the multiverse was due to his god hood. According to Die Vecna Die even Demigods would've eventually destroyed the Multiverse if they were allowed in the Sigil.
  • For Asgorath I'd still mention the moon toss and change "Implied to have created the Lady of Pain" to "In one myth was said to have created the Lady of Pain".
  • For the Demon Lords/Archdevils I'd scale them to Demogorgan's "shaking the Astral Sea" feat since that's better than scaling to an Intermediate Deity like Lolth.
 
Oh wait. Completly forgot to ask, did the speed calcs you did get accepted? Because for Demigods, Avatars/Primodals, and Archdevils/Demon Lords would need to scale to "At least hypersonic+" and not the old AftS calc.
 
No, not yet, though I asked Dark to look at them. Of the three blogs I asked him about, he's looked at one, for which I am grateful, as Dark is a calc member I personally trust. I'm assuming he's busy and hopefully he'll remember. If you know of another calc group member that'd be happy to look at our calcs for the verse, then that would be fine.

As for your points.

1. Okay. I've got no issues with that, so long as it is clear he has 2-A showings.

2. It should be mentioned, I suppose, but as a supporting feat rather than the main show.

3. Okay. Lolth has taken many forms, and as far as I know she is most known as a Demon Lord, but so long as it is known that the demon lords and such have Low 2-C showings in their prime.
 
1: Totally. He holds off her power . The only way she can get him out of the Sigil is to dawn her true form which would've destroyed the entire Multiverse as a side effect (in her sealed/normal form she repaired the Multiverse).

2: Yeah

3: Lolth moved her layer in 3e, which means she was an Intermediate God. And to my understanding while in their layers Archdevils and Demon Lords only act as Quasi, Demi, or Lesser Gods. So Demogorgans feat is just a safer option that's roughly as good (Goku for example is Low 2C for doing the exact same feat).
 
Not gonna comment on the DB stuff since those threads get WAY out of hand, but to my knowledge, shaking a mundane universe is 4-A based on a calc done with the observable universe.

That said, it'd be different for a universe that we know is infinite. Not to mention a universe that contains many universes within it.

So, if we're all in agreement, the tiers are acceptable for the deities. They have hereby been revamped (except for speed for their avatars which needs looked at).

Once said calcs get looked at, the lesser beings can also get their tier changes done and the revisions will finally be done after extensive talk.

Yippee and whatnot.
 
> shaking a mundane universe

Neither UI Goku (which is what I meant) nor Demogorgon shook a universe, but an infinite space.


Otherwise yeah. All that's left to do is get the speed stuff checked out and the tiers can be adjusted.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
Ao the Overdeity: 4-A (The only time his avatar was ever seen, he wore a cloak containing millions of stars and celestial bodies within it) | High 2-A (Can take away the powers of any deity, including the Lady of Pain, with a mere thought, and ascend any being to their level of power with equally as little effort)
Click to expand...
I think that all of your suggested statistics seem to make sense, with the exception of the above one, as that isn't really a good rationale/explanation for High 2-A. It is an infinitely wide tier after all.
 
To call Ao infinitely above any 2-A deity would be a gross understatement. Ao is so beyond their scale of power that his thoughts are as powerful as them. He is the servant of the embodiment of the DM, the real-world person who runs the game itself (Luminous Being). Not only can Ao destroy a god with a mere thought, he did it all at once at one point, forcing all the gods down to the Material Plane (save for one, Helm, I believe, who defended the heavens).

To put it simply and without too many fanciful words thrown about, Ao is one level of transcendance above even the Lady of Pain, who is laughably superior to any being of the multiverse, to the point where if any being encounters her, she defaultly wins.

At base, a greater deity can perform feats on the scale of Mystra. Lady of Pain would view Mystra as something akin to a cockroach. Ao would view the Lady of Pain as something akin to a puff of smoke, should it please him. Literally no power compared to him. At all.

Lumi would view Ao as the same way.

If this is not sufficient for a higher tier, I will accept that, but in my eyes it should be. That is my opinion.
 
That is probably enough for a higher tier, but it needs to be better explained in the justification text that you wrote for his profile page.
 
Very well, I will attempt to explain it more sufficiently, hopefully phrasing it more concisely.

Attack Potency: High 2-A (Views even the mightiest of the greater deities as powerless relative to himself, including the Lady of Pain, who fodderizes beings on the level of Vecna and Mystra, and who nearly destroyed the multiverse simply by unveiling her true power; can cause all gods to lose all of their power with a single thought, as evidenced within the Time of Troubles)

Better?
 
I suppose that might work, yes.
 
Let's wait at least until the speed feats are done being put through, as they scale to every avatar (and therefore most pages affected by the revisions).
 
So a few things I wanted to get clarified, and this seemed like the proper thread for:

  • What are the feats for normal Greater Deities that put them at 2-A?
  • Shouldn't Vecna have keys, or something? His Die Vecna Die! incarnation was amped to absolute hell compared to his normal self, unless I'm misremembering.
  • Why is the Lady of Pai just 2-A? If memory serves me, she killed a Greater Deity who invaded Sigil with a single thought, and she held back immensely against Vecna (who in his DVD! incarnation was planning to reshape the multiverse) due to not wanting to damage the multiverse. Isn't this same version of Vecna killed by a massively PIS-powered, god-level party, who are still completely inferior to the Lady? Didn't she recreate the entire setting after DVD!'s events? I'd think she'd be somewhere around "At least 2-A", at the very least. Though didn't 2e have some kind of High 2-A construct?
  • Why is Asgorath treated as possibly superior to the Lady of Pain? The two never interacted, and Asgorath/Io died to Erek-Hus, a Primordial. Said Primordial was then murder-stomped by the two remaining halves of Io, who were Lesser Deities. On top of this, Asgorath was just said to have created the multiverse in Draconic myth, and even if we assume this is true alongside other creation stories due to retcons/edition reset, this would still but it below the Lady of Pain, who had to hold back against someone who could reshape the entire multiverse, as well as seems to have reset the editions between 2e and 3e. If Io is genuinely being scaled because there's a theory that the Lady of Pain might have come from it, said theory is about as legit as the one that says the Lady is several squirrels with a ring of levitation, as both are based on literally nothing.
 
  • Mentioned reasons were scaling to Mystra
  • We're adding a Demigod, Lesser God, and Greater God key
  • Aoskar (the portal god) doesn't have a divine rating afaik. Vecna wasn't damaging the Multiverse due to his power, but because a God cannot exist in the Sigil without causing reality to collaspe. Vecna's plan was to destroy the multverse in that fashion then remake it in his image. The suggested party level was high (like 12+ or something) and used special artifacts to avoid Vecna's full might. Finally she did repair the multiverse but used less power than what she did with Vecna
  • In one super minor myth he said to have created her
 
Just answering a few points quick (if they've not been addressed already, that is):

Wouldn't the Greater Diety avatars scale to Dender the Night Serpent who is destined to eat the Sun?

Dendar is not a god per se. She is an Elder Evil potentially, of primordial origin. Primordials, by nature, are stronger than even the greater deities.

Yeah, I know, this is 4e stuff. But you see, 4e stuff was carried into 5e and is taken into account in the sources (primordials are still a thing in FR, as per the Sword Coast Adventure's Guide and Storm's King Thunder, for instance).

Ao is the one who split the planets (Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide: 4th Edition). Yeah, but he did it because Asgorath was about to destroy the world. So, Ao created a clone and gave it to the primordials. What remains of the Tearfall is the Sea of Fallen Stars, but, if we go by Draconomicon (2e book), the climatic changes were so dramatical, that triggered the massive extintion of many species in just seven days (including the changes that destroyed the batrachi civilization in just a year, as per Great History of the Realms and the 4e FRCG).

That means the feat is still legit, as Ao only twinned the world as a way to avoid its complete destruction.

However, you're right that the greater gods shouldn't scale to Asgorath/Io. S/he is way too powerful to rank alongside common deities. Asgorath/Io is one of the few creatures credited as the creator of the multiverse (as per Monster Mythology, a 2e book). Only a few other beings had that among their feats (such as Annam, the god of giants).

Also, Ao is infinitely stronger than Vecna, who damaged that infinite multiverse.

Well, things are iffy here. Ao is indeed infinitely superior to any god. But only within the bounds of Realmspace (this has been confirmed by many authors, including Ed Greenwood, the Realms creator). He has no power to influence anything from beyond. This is the explanation used to justify why he couldn't stop the Spellplague to happen (as the Spellplague was powered-up with Far Realm-energies, and the Far Realm exists beyond the sphere of control of Ao).

archdevil gaining Greater Deity status moving the Abyss (which has portals to infinite universes, each of which is infinite) to the Elemental Chaos from the Astral Sea. / As mentioned above, this feat is not a 2-A one because of the edition retcon. In 4e (when this happened) the Abyss ad been reduced to only being a few thousand miles in diameter and being explicitly finite.

Well... no. The Abyss in 4e IS infinite. What are finite are the layers within. This is from Demonomicon (4e sourcebook), p.44:

https://i.imgur.com/2hPQ26x.png

The Abyss in 4e is explicitly infinite. So, nope. The feat is not invalidated by the edition changes.
 
> Well... no. The Abbys in 4e IS infinite. What are finite are the layers within. This is from Demonomicon (4e sourcebook), p.44:

The source I provided was from the 4e version of the Manual of the Planes. Do later sourcebooks retcon the Abyss back to its old size or is this just a sourcebook contradiction?
 
> Yeah, but he did it because Asgorath was about to destroy the world.

I know and even provided a source of Io doing that. But that doesn't change the fact that it was Ao who created the planets not Io. Which was the original claim.


> Well... no. The Abbys in 4e IS infinite. What are finite are the layers within. This is from Demonomicon (4e sourcebook), p.44:

The source I provided was from the 4e version of the Manual of the Planes. Do later sourcebooks retcon the Abyss back to its old size or is this just a sourcebook contradiction?
 
@Qawsedf234

  • If Mystra has a 2-A feat, then that all seems good.
  • Keys for Vecna definitely seem like a good addition.
  • I don't think Aoskar had confirmed rank, but I recall there being something about him becoming most influential deity in the planes due to how interwoven he'd become in Sigil. I definitely don't think it'd be farfetched to believe he'd reached Greater Deity levels, by that point. If she used less power to repair the multiverse than she did to fight Vecna, and she was still restricting herself on the latter as well, that seems to me like it would definitely qualify for "At least 2-A" and not just normal 2-A.
  • Do you mean this one? It's not even a myth. It's a theory based on nothing. Another theory on the same page states that she could potentially be an aspect of Aoskar, which we know if bunk. A lot of purposefully meaningless theories are presented about the Lady specifically so that she can be kept vague. It doesn't mean we should scale Asgorath/Io to her in any capacity based on something that almost certainly isn't even true.
 
  • Not far-fetched at all. Probably just being cautious but God scaling can get murky. As for holding herself back the text for adventure stated that she couldn't eject Vecna from the Sigil without going into her true form, which would destroy the multiverse anyways. Which is why she was stuck and unable to do anything without outside help.
  • Yeah it's almost 100% not true, I was just explaining where the rating comes from.
 
@Qawsedf

  • Explains a lot, and also helps justify a bit of a higher rating. The mere reveal of her true form having the potential to cause the multiverse to come completely undone is a pretty excellent feat.
  • Ah, I see. Should probably be removed from Asgorath's page when revisions go through, though.
 
The source I provided was from the 4e version of the Manual of the Planes. Do later sourcebooks retcon the Abyss back to its old size or is this just a sourcebook contradiction?

I don't think so. Even in the earlier sources, such as the first Monster Manual, they say the Abyss is infinite. For instance, in the MM you have the origin of the Abyss in the Demons entry, and it's stated the Abyss is infinite (p.52):

"Evil took root like a foul seed of corruption, burrowing deep into the unshaped matter of the Elemental Chaos and spreading unholy tendrils far and wide. A yawning chasm of infinite gloom and despair opened up at the lowest pit of creation, swallowing all matter and light, defiling anything that drew near.

The Abyss was born."

So, perhaps the MotP authors got it wrong or something.

In all instances, however, both Demonomicon (the sourcebook about the Abyss) and Secrets of the Elemental Chaos (the sourcebook for well, the Chaos) state that the Abyss is infinite in size, and those are the latest sourcebooks about it.

Anyways, I got carried away, so I hope I have no offended you or something. I apologize, in any case. Just that as one of the few people that enjoyed 4e, I'm tired of the constant negativity the general D&D players have for this edition.
 
I don't think Aoskar had confirmed rank

Aoskar is confirmed as a Greater Deity before his death in On Hallowed Ground, p.182
 
@Qawsedf

  • That sounds about right. Though I vaguely remember there being something in 2e that could qualify as High 2-A, but I can't remember what it was or if that's correct. Maybe someone else mentioned it already and I missed it. IDK. But yeah, I'd say "At least Multiverse level+" as a minimum considering her power compared to Greater Deities and her true form being able to instantly destroy the multiverse.
  • Agreed.
 
Zeromaru X said:
I don't think Aoskar had confirmed rank
Aoskar is confirmed as a Greater Deity before his death in On Hallowed Ground, p.182
Click to expand...
Greatly appreciated. This helps confirm LoP's overwhelming power when put next to Greater Deities.
 
> For instance, in the MM you have the origin of the Abyss in the Demons entry, and it's stated the Abyss is infinite (p.52):

Infinite gloom doesn't really scream spacially infinite to me, but since I'm not super knowledgeable on 4e I'll take your word on it. 2-3 equally canon sources outweighs one (Manual of the Planes getting a plane wrong is weird though)

> Just that as one of the few people that enjoyed 4e, I'm tired of the constant negativity the general D&D players have for this edition.

I hope I didn't come off as negative towards 4e. It gets undeserved scorn. Plus it's easier to pick up and play which is important since a lot of my 3e/3.5e games got bogged down in rule length at times.

> Aoskar is confirmed as a Greater Deity before his death in On Hallowed Ground, p.182

Always forget about On Hallowed Ground (which is a shame considering how much lore it adds an how it mixes various gods together). Thanks for the correction
 
Well, I'm updating my Dawn War blog, and it seems I left out something interesting. In Dragon 373, there is an article about the Sharn. That article says that the Dawn War-verse had a sister universe, a place where events happened the same until the Dawn War started. In this world, the primordials won the War, yet later Tharizdun was able to "transcend divinity" and destroyed that universe. I guess is a good feat, though it seems this Tharizdun will be in the level of high tier greater deities such as Asgorath/Io and All-Father Annam.

Anyways, this became important later in 4e, as it spawned the multiversal Abyssal Plague, that is basically an embodiment of Tharizdun's will (our regular Tharizdun, not the alternate world one) and the utter evilness of that dead universe. The Abyssal Plague affected the Dawn War world, Abeir-Toril, and Athas in the novels, and if we go by some Dungeon article, it may have affected Eberron as well.
 
If he Transcended Divinity then wouldn't that put him in Overgod territory?
 
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