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Assaltwaffle

VS Battles
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Well, here we are again. Discussed already? Yes. Satisfactory? Not in my opinion. So let's get on with this.

Cuphead has no feats on his own above 9-A. While this is fine, since scaling is a thing, the one character who actually has a feat at High 7-A is Grim Matchstick. He is the only one who has a feat at tier 7, or even tier 8. Nothing else is even remotely close. Let's go down the line, explain why this feat shouldn't be used, and possible counterarguments.

1. The Storm isn't directly caused by Grim: While this one has been talked about, the idea that Grim did the storm in the first place is... sketchy. He has no animation of him reaching to the sky, flapping his wings, or... anything really. His second phase starts and the storm starts.

Some may point to the storm starting upon his transformation as proof that he caused it, but it is, in all honesty, just an homage to old-school cartoons, as much of the game is, in addition to a mood-setting device. Unless we want to rate Katara Tier 7 for the rain starting when she targets Yon Rha, the man who killed her father. This actually makes more sense than Grim's storm, since Katara is actually a Water Bender. The background or setting changing to fit the mood of a scene, unless shown to be directly caused by the character (as indicated via a motion to the clouds, energy going to the clouds, or the like), should not be treated as a feat for the character in question.

2. The Storm is an Outlier: This one is pretty simple. Even if the storm feat is legitimate, which I question for the reasons above, it is a grievous outlier to anything else in the series. No feat even comes close. In fact, this bad boy is the runner up. A 9-A feat is the next best thing to a High 7-A feat. I hope I don't have to say why this is an outlier.

Aside from Grim's feat, which is questionable at best, no one comes close in power. The only thing that could be argued is that the final boss, The Devil, has a feat in this ballpark by causing volcanoes to erupt. Once again, this is just background, and they are already erupting when the fight even takes its first frame. This is not a valid feat, and has even less ground to stand on than Grim's feat, which is already pulling a Gasto.

So, what's the verdict here? Back down to 9-B and 9-A for the previously accepted feats.

TLDR: Grim's feat isn't valid, and even if it was it doesn't compare to any other feat in the serious, and thus would be an outlier. Cuphead from High 7-A to 9-B and 9-A, for his ground and plane forms, respectively.
 
Absolutely agree. The storm isn't a feat and if it was it'd be an outlier.

Also he shouldn't be MHS. Those lightnings aren't real, and Cuphead is static compared to actual cloud-to-ground lightning.
 
Remember back when we were first making Cuphead and we thought he'd be tier 4? Man those were the days...
 
Absolutely agree. I mean, this site considers Rolf's storm creation as visual effect, so why can't the same be said for the storm occurring in Grim's fight?
 
I agree with this, as much as I like Cuphead, that felt kinda crap.

But will he get to keep his loss against Mugman though?

Also will Grim stay as High 7-A if this is just an outlier?
 
Edwardtruong2006 said:
I agree with this, as much as I like Cuphead, that felt kinda crap.

But will he get to keep his loss against Mugman though?

Also will Grim stay as High 7-A if this is just an outlier?
They are both going to 9-B/9-A if this goes through, so they will keep their Win and Loss.

Grim goes down either way, since this is an outlier. It isn't just a scaling issue, and I still am not buying that he actually made the storm.
 
So, do we have enough support to make the downgrades? Who was in support of the upgrade in the first place? It may be a good idea to let him/her speak here.
 
@Azzy

Well I really dislike the idea of durability via size. A dinosaur doesn't have impossible to break skin, and there is a big difference from killing it to making it explode/destroying it completely.

Even if that was OK, Cuphead takes literally several hundred shots to defeat them.
 
@Assalt

That's definitely more plausible for Cala Maria, but he's smaller than a single one of the Devil's teeth. Unless the Devil has absolutely horrid durability after growing to that size or moved at ludicrously slow speeds, he'd still need to be a relatively low-end Tier 8 (not necessarily saying this would fully scale to Cuphead).
 
I don't like the idea of using feats that are basically "destroying an enemy of a certain size" to justify a higher feat being an outlier. People having only one big feats far above minor ones isn't uncommon. It's borderline the norm actually.
 
I meant the 9-A feat(s)

The wall being destroyed is just a character from what I see. Why would that contradict Cuphead being High 7-A?
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
I don't like the idea of using feats that are basically "destroying an enemy of a certain size" to justify a higher feat being an outlier. People having only one big feats far above minor ones isn't uncommon. It's borderline the norm actually.
This.

This stole my line.
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
I meant the 9-A feat(s)

The wall being destroyed is just a character from what I see. Why would that contradict Cuphead being High 7-A?
It doesn't contradict, but absolutely nothing comes close to High 7-A. No other tier 7s, debatably no tier 8s, just 9-A slamming into High 7-A via a single feat.

How is that not an outlier? That that it still assuming that Grim's storm is legit caused by him, which I still don't buy.
 
The whole point of an outlier is having the high feat be contradictory.

What you're giving for examples of counter feats is stuff like killing fodder enemies or destroying stage hazards, which is true for pretty much any platforming characters. These are NOT enough to debunk any higher feats. Especially for games which just doesn't have that many feats to begin with.

This situation with a bunch of Tier 9 feats and one high-end feat is bound to happen with any verse with only one major feat to scale to. Of course, we generally don't outright demand for a verse to have at least two feats of their levels to be rated as such. Why would it be so here?
 
Then yes, it does contradict if that it your definition of it. And if a character is consistently portrayed as Tier 9, then yes, we should need another feat in the general ballpark, or at least some statements backing up this power.

I have many verses based off of storm calcs, but they all have multiple feats in that tier with additional statements backing up the storm power. This is different. This is a one-off feat that was given by a mid-game boss and that no one else even comes to matching.

Cuphead has zero indications of being that strong outside of this singular instance. 998.785 Megatons (not even High 7-A, mind you) vs 0.0375 tons. 998,785,000 vs 0.0375. A 26,634,266,666.7 times difference. You absolutely have to be disingenuous by saying that this isn't an outlier.

And, still, nothing proves that Grim caused the storm and that it isn't just the game setting the mood.
 
Cuphead is based on 1920s / 30s cartoons, where even the scenery had faces and moved around at will. A background change is just that.
 
Also, mind you, we'd have to upgrade Cuphead to High 6-A if we were to take background changes seriously.

cough cough Hilda cough cough
 
Kepekley23 said:
Also, mind you, we'd have to upgrade Cuphead to High 6-A if we were to take background changes seriously.

cough cough Hilda cough cough
I thought that one was in tier 5.
 
Your consistency is, again, based on stuff like sheer size. I haven't seen any feats in the Tier 9 range that isn't based on the sheer size of enemies (or the destruction of said enemies).

Okay so, Undertale has one Tier 7 feats that is used to scale to everyone in the verse, despite a handful of minor Tier 9 feats, such as Frisk breaking down a wall, Undyne cutting off a bridge, sheer size of some of them, etc.

I can probably name a ton of other verses with only one major feat that scales to everyone. In what way is Cuphead different?
 
Kepekley23 said:
Me not agreeing with this would be hypocrisy..
Well. I mean, Bayonetta had an absolute fodder preforming a feat quintillions of times better than anyone on the entire cast. This is an at least relatively strong boss, and the only other feats in the verse to oppose it are basic terrain destruction and other such things that are in literally any verse.

Now, I do agree Matchstick creating the storm is a bit sketchy, but you can make a case for it not being an outlier.
 
Okay, so how about literally every single feat Cuphead does in the whole game being between 9-C and 8-C max wank? He doesn't even destroy walls in the game, he fights enemies that have 0 destructive power and bosses who at most just throw large stuff or make some waves. His plane form does no more damage than a real life plane.

Undertale actually has feats and divides the power level of the characters. Cuphead is a featless, 100% gameplay-only game. Everything indicates a Tier 9 verse.
 
@Saikou

What Matt said. Cuphead is different because there is no heirarchy or power; everyone is on the same level. If this is the case, we absolutely need ample evidence suggesting the acceptance of such an inflated number.

And you still haven't made a decent argument as to why Grim even caused it in the first place. He doesn't motion to the clouds, send energy to them, or even look in their general direction. He transforms and the background changes to suit to mood, as is common in the source material of the game.
 
So because Cuphead doesn't bust stuff in-game, feats of him actually doing those are outliers? Not destroying everything in a game isn't due to the characters being weak. It's just normal.

Except that the best feat outside of Low 7-C is 9-A. And that's from Undyne Anyone who's rated above 9-B from backward scaling to Low 7-C is still above most feats of the verse.
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
So because Cuphead doesn't bust stuff in-game, feats of him actually doing those are outliers? Not destroying everything in a game isn't due to the characters being weak. It's just normal.

Except that the best feat outside of Low 7-C is 9-A. And that's from Undyne Anyone who's rated above 9-B from backward scaling to Low 7-C is still above most feats of the verse.
If this really is an issue, we can cover Undertale later. It doesn't make Cuphead correct, though. That said I still think Undertale's ratings make more sense than Cuphead's for Matt's reason.

@Kep

Even more evidence that he was not sustaining it, then.
 
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