Crimson King revisions (and other things)

[Aeyu]

Honestly, I think Gan should just get a straight rating. The logic I used to defend that rating (which is what I argued based on the composition of the void) was extremely flawed, just like my downgrade to the DS which turned them from Possibly 1-A into High 1-B.

Frankly, all I see for the Tower, at the most, is At least High 1-B due to that conceptual transcendence of size itself (does dimension not relate to size, being likened to cardinal infinites on this Wiki?) but I definitely am going to try and defend 1-A Gan, which Matt previously argued for as well.

And well, it relates in that if the King was on one of the highest conceptual levels of the Tower, and the destruction of the Big Combination affected him, that High 1-B should be a given. Subtracting infinity from the infinite still equals infinity.

And also, not to be "that girl," or anything, but maybe you or someone else should bring that up? (I certainly won't, because I'm not going to be seen as trying to incite discord again) Because currently, all that it's defined as is being unlimited by any dimensions.

 

[Aeyu]

Also, the Tower itself is the exact same thing. Each multiverse contains infinite multiverses in it, and the Tower encompasses literally all of these as the nexus of all of existence.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I don't care about Gan, at the moment. He's not part of these revisions, and can be updated separately.

I will however, state what I think for the rest of the revisions, at the moment.

• Dis needs actual, solid statements that he can destroy the Tower to put him at High 1-B. Otherwise, I am not sure what tier he should have, or if he should just be "Unknown".

• Los' isn't anywhere near High 1-B, though that's mostly been agreed upon.

• The resistance to existence erasure (which I'm surprised nobody has mentioned yet) doesn't seem to be legit.

• CK's plot manipulation also does not seem to exist, is more likely some type of fate manipulation, and definitely isn't comparable to something like Gan's.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Also, the Tower itself is the exact same thing. Each multiverse contains infinite multiverses in it, and the Tower encompasses literally all of these as the nexus of all of existence.

Containing infinite multiverses isn't the same as explicitly containing infinite multiverses of infinite layers each on top of one another. The former is still just High 1-B, but each level of existence has infinite parallel universes.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

• The resistance to existence erasure (which I'm surprised nobody has mentioned yet) doesn't seem to be legit.
• CK's plot manipulation also does not seem to exist, is more likely some type of fate manipulation, and definitely isn't comparable to something like Gan's.

I was about to bring these up again once the talks surrounding Dis were finished, actually.

The second one is definitely fate manipulation. The cutting of Ed Deepneau's life cord by Atropos was supposed to lead to fate engineering circumstances that would kill him, and the King surrounded him in some sort of force that prevented that from happening.

 

[Aeyu]

Except they are defined as higher layers by Flagg when he's having the palaver with Roland in the desert (see above). Outside of each multiverse is another, higher multiverse which encompasses that one.

If I must be Devil's advocate, I'd say At least 2-A could work for Los. As far as Dis, if he exists at the highest level of the DT, precedes its existence, and has the distinct possibility of being part of Gan, High 1-B still works very well.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Containing infinite multiverses isn't the same as explicitly containing infinite multiverses of infinite layers each on top of one another. The former is still just High 1-B, but each level of existence has infinite parallel universes.

This has nothing to do with it, but a curiosity:

What is your view on Destiny of the Endless' book containing everything, including Destiny himself... Who is always holding is book which should contain everything.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Except they are defined as higher layers by Flagg when he's having the palaver with Roland in the desert (see above). Outside of each multiverse is another, higher multiverse which encompasses that one.

This is still what is required to even be High 1-B, in the first place. Endless higher layers each above/encompassing the one before.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Except they are defined as higher layers by Flagg when he's having the palaver with Roland in the desert (see above). Outside of each multiverse is another, higher multiverse which encompasses that one.
If I must be Devil's advocate, I'd say At least 2-A could work for Los. As far as Dis, if he exists at the highest level of the DT, precedes its existence, and has the distinct possibility of being part of Gan, High 1-B still works very well.

I think this is reasonable.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

What is your view on Destiny of the Endless' book containing everything, including Destiny himself... Who is always holding is book which should contain everything.

Probably just part of his "weird metaphysical conceptual being bullshit".

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

If I must be Devil's advocate, I'd say At least 2-A could work for Los.

What has Los' done to deserve 2-A, though?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

On the subject of Dis, if we're going to rate him based on where he exists in the Tower and nothing else, though still acknowledge he's confined by the Tower, then "At most High 1-B" or "Unknown, At most High 1-B" would be acceptable, for me. However, the "At most" is pretty important.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'm not sure he is confined by the power seeing as he comes from the level beyond it and saw its creation. He was trapped inside it by Gan.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So do Succubi. But they are not anywhere close to Tier 1. If he is able to be confined within the Tower, that puts a cap on his power, as the Tower is the physical body of Gan, who transcends it. Virtually nothing else from the Prim besides a single other vague entity are at Gan's level.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

That reminds me, Bessa's note about how she "can bestow others with Reality Warping strong enough to erase even beings rated at High 1-B to some degree" needs to be removed once all of this is over.

• Los' is agreed to not be High 1-B
• The quotes above regarding the erasure explain the circumstances for why Patrick needed the Rose to finish the drawing in a way that allowed him to erase Los'
• Patrick's reality-warping powers did not originate from the Rose. He's had them since before he met Roland.

 

[Aeyu]

It's important to note that the Tower made the entirety of the Prim, directly referred to as the primordial chaos (which has been grounds for 1-A in the past) recede into nothingness, causing its entities to become vastly weaker. Also, the Tower by nature contains the Todash space, which is directly referred to as a void outside of reality.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The Prim didn't really recede into nothingness. It's close enough to "nothing", already. Its recession was more due to the fact that something physical actually started existing, iirc. Entities such as Gan were, after all, metaphysical.

 

[Aeyu]

Gan's metaphysical nature, to me, solidifies a 1-A rating, and why again is the quote about CK being part of Gan discounted? I still don't think we should disregard all other media, especially when canon has recently been discussed as something which should necessitate different keys.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Isn't Los' supposed to be a being of similar nature to IT?

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Yes, actually. Or at least that's what's implied a few times.

And in Insomnia, when the King (not sure if it's the same avatar) is defeated and he opens up a "conduit" to one of the higher levels above, "deadlights" are seen and Ralph is forced to shield his eyes or risk losing his sanity and dying.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

So Los' would at least be Low 2-C.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Seems that way, I'd say.

What should we note as his speed, lifting strength, etc? Unknown for now?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I feel that the Lifting Strength and Speed would be Immeasurable.

 

[Kepekley23]

I'm just watching, but I do have to say I agree with both Matt and Aeyu. The scan King posted literally argues supporting canon for the comics, with the DT analogy.

Also, Gan shouldn't be just "possibly 1-A" IMO. The description in his profile is straight up 1-A. "At least High 1-B" is unnecessary.

 

[Aeyu]

I agree with Kep and Matt obviously. I also think that throwing potential scaling feats out entirely due to a nebulous statement regarding canonicity is disingenuous.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

I feel that the Lifting Strength and Speed would be Immeasurable.

What would be our justification for this?

 

[Kepekley23]

Speed above 4-dimensional space is Immeasurable.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

I meant on the page itself. What should we write that explains why he's immeasurable in speed. Anything at all?

The actual reason why he'd be immeasurable doesn't bother me. But the series doesn't exactly go out of its way to state that he has speed above a 4-D space.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Isn't Los' consistently shown to move normally and on the same level as someone like Roland? I really doubt his speed is immeasurable even with Low 2-C AP.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Gan's metaphysical nature, to me, solidifies a 1-A rating, and why again is the quote about CK being part of Gan discounted?

Metaphysical + High 1-B =/= 1-A. Otherwise all Warp Gods would be 1-A (though tbf we have pretty high standards for those guys anyway due to the nature of the series). I am fine with him being rated as 1-A, but I don't think it should be for that reason, or know if it should be solid or not. I'm pretty neutral on it.

Which quote about CK being part of Gan? The one where he's said to be his "crazy side"?

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

He isn't really "shown" at all save for at the end of DT7, actually. The only other time we see him besides Insomnia (in which he doesn't move until he opens the "conduit" I mentioned) is when he meets Roland in a lucid dream after the latter's mind was sucked into the Grapefruit.

Though, the one time we do see him at the end of DT, he does seem to move at around the same speed as Roland, at best. And there's still the bit about him allegedly needing his horse, Nis, in order to travel to the Tower.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@MrKing

Yeah, I'm referring to that and the fact that, iirc, he was under threat of Roland shooting him, which would be kind of hard if he had immeasurable speed.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

That's true. The entire reason he turned himself undead is because he was afraid that Roland's guns would be able to end him.

 

[Aeyu]

You could argue though that CK being afraid of the guns was mostly because of the hax behind the guns, though. Patrick was nowhere near CK's level, even Los, and was able to basically almost erase him.

Anyway, Gan should be 1-A because he transcends the Tower, which transcends size and holds the concepts of dimension, time and space together, which Gan "spun from his navel" using the "magic waters". It's never stated that he was created by the Prim, just that he rose from it, and furthermore, the Prim, which is referred to as primordial chaos and a void, receded completely upon the Tower's creation, "starving and choking", the Prim's residents. Jack in the Talisman, when becoming one with Gan, became one with literally everything that existed, and Gan was explicitly described as being "beyond infinity", "being a power beyond all other power", and "being the author of all there was".

I suppose I could come up with more reasons as to why. And yes, I still think that CK being possibly part of Gan should at least be accounted for. Furthermore I still think that keys, something you and MrKing discussed previously, may be more conducive. Also, I plan to read through the entirety of the series again, so that I can help with Los' downgrade and see what powers are applicable to him.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

It wouldn't matter how much hax they had unless Roland's bullets travelled beyond linear time, which would be required for him to even hit Los' in the first place if he moved at Immeasurable speeds in comparison to Roland. That's the idea.

 

[Aeyu]

But the guns thing was never tested, and Los had gone insane from paranoia, so it could also just be a case of PIS, which is what was agreed upon before. In any case, Los should at least be above Pennywise, as he's the father of all Were-spiders.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

In terms of power, yeah. I'm just doubtful it translates to his speed.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I feel it is PIS as well. Were-Spiders, the Turtle and Pennywise have stuff that indicates Immeasurable speed.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yeah, but they've actually demonstrated it.

Though Los' kinda suffers from the problem of "powerful bad guy who doesn't show up in person until really late and when he does he kinda sucks", so it's hard to tell what should and shouldn't be considered legit, for him.

 

[Aeyu]

True, but scaling would suggest that the insanity element to Los was his reason for worry in regard to the guns. The thing with the guns was never shown to be a threat. I think Unknow, likely Immeasurable, due to being above Pennywise would work best if you are convinced of the doubt, though I think Immeasurable works fine enough.