Crimson King revisions (and other things)

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also, I don't see why we ONLY must use the books and nothing else.
And don't talk down to me. Your credibility was null from the moment you blindly agreed with my first downgrade.

This is important. We don't only use the core books, but the comics as well.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I can actually post the quotes that make the Crimson King High 1-B.

Please do. Because I actually can't remember any, which is the main issue, here.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

But Gan was not the only demiurge to arise from that primordial magical soup. And just as night inevitably follows day, and as the ki'box must sit below the heart and the head, so that which came after the bright light of Gan dragged like a heavy shadow. What bubbled up from the depths of the Prim with a great burping stench of decay was the force of the Outer Dark, the ki'box of eternity.
- The Gunslinger Bor
The Crimson King is explicitly the shadow to Gan's light. He's a being of similar standing, arising from the same magic of the Prim that Gan emerged.

The Crimson King's goal is literally to destroy the whole Dark Tower, but he can't because he is locked away. This cannot be anything but High 1-B.

"You asked how many worlds," Parkus begins. "The answer, in the High Speech, is da fan: worlds beyond telling." With one of the blackened sticks he draws a figure eight on its side, which Jack recognizes as the Greek symbol for infinity.
"There is a Tower that binds them in place. Think of it as an axle upon which many wheels spin, if you like. And there is an entity that would bring this Tower down. Ram Abbalah."
At these words, the flames of the fire seem to momentarily darken and turn red. Jack wishes he could believe that this is only a trick of his overstrained mind, but cannot. "The Crimson King," he says.
"Yes. His physical being is pent in a cell at the top of the Tower, but he has another manifestation, every bit as real, and this lives in Can-tah Abbalah - the Court of the Crimson King."
"Two places at once." Given his journeying between the world of America and the world of the Territories, Jack has little trouble swallowing this concept.
"Yes."
"If he - or it - destroys the Tower, won't that defeat his purpose? Won't he destroy his physical being in the process?"
"Just the opposite: he'll set it free to wander what will then be chaos . . . din-tah . . . the furnace. Some parts of Mid-World have fallen into that furnace already."
- Black House
The Crimson King's true form is locked away, which is why he doesn't just instantly destroy the Tower. If his manifestation succeeds on its goal, the true Crimson King won't die as a result of all of existence collapsing.

Again At least High 1-B, unarguable.

Clotho: [Be content with this: beyond the Short-Time levels of existence and the Long-Time levels on which Lachesis, Atropos, and I exist, there are yet other levels. These are inhabited by creatures we could call All-Timers, beings which are either eternal or so close to it as to make no difference.
Short-Timers and Long-Timers live in overlapping spheres of existence-on connected floors of the same building, if you like-ruled by the Random and the Purpose. Above these floors, inaccessible to us but very much a part of the same tower Of existence, live other beings.
Some of them are marvelous and wonderful,-others are hideous beyond our ability to comprehend, let alone yours. These beings might be called the Higher Purpose and the Higher Random... or perhaps there is no Random beyond a certain level,we suspect that may be the case, but we have no real way of telling.
We do know that it is something from one of these higher levels that has interested itself in Ed, and that something else from up there made a countermove. That countermove is you, Ralph and Lois.]
- Insomnia
["Last summer, after he beat his wife up, Ed spoke to me of a being he called the Crimson King. Does that mean anything to you fellows?"] Clotho and Lachesis exchanged another look, one which Ralph at first mistook for solemnity.
Clotho: [Ralph, you must remember that Ed is insane, existing in a delusional state-" ["Yeah, tell me about it."] "but we believe that his "Crimson King" does exist in one form or another, and that when Atropos cut his life-cord, Ed Deepneau falls directly under this being's influence.] The two little bald doctors looked at each other again, and this time Ralph saw the shared expression for what it really was: not solemnity but terror.
- Insomnia
The Crimson King is one of the beings who come from outside and beyond all the infinite higher and lower levels of existence contained by the Dark Tower, just like Gan and Bessa.

The Red King's influence is limited by the Tower, but he has built The Big Combination/The King's Forge to help "boost" his influence:

"That thing you hear, that's the Crimson King's power plant," Burny says. He speaks with pride, but there is more than a tinge of fear beneath it. "The Big Combination."
- Black House
And in the distance - dim and baleful, its source somewhere over the horizon - a dark crimson light waxed and waned. Heart of the rose, she thought, and then: No, not that. Forge of the King. She looked at the pulsing sullen light with helpless, horrified fascination. Flex...and loosen. Wax...and wane. An infection announcing itself to the sky.
"Come to me now, if you'd come at all, Susannah of New York," said Mia. She was dressed in a heavy serape and what looked like leather pants that stopped just below the knee. Her shins were scabbed and scratched. She wore thick-soled huaraches on her feet. "For the King can fascinate, even at a distance. We're on the Discordia side of the Castle. Would you like to end your life on the needles at the foot of this wall? If he fascinates you and tells you to jump, you'll do just that. Your bossy gunslinger-men aren't here to help you now, are they? Nay, nay. You're on your own, so y'are."
Susannah tried to pull her gaze from that steadily pulsing glow and at first couldn't do it. Panic bloomed in her mind
(if he fascinates you and tells you to jump)
and she seized it as a tool, compressing it to an edge with which to cut through her frightened immobility. For a moment nothing happened, and then she threw herself backward so violently in the shabby little cart that she had to clutch the edge in order to keep herself from tumbling to the cobbles. The wind gusted again, blowing stone-dust and grit against her face and into her hair, seeming to mock her.
But that pull...fascination...glammer...whatever it had been, it was gone.
- Song of Susannah
Jack points at the ugly complication of struts and belts and girders and smoking chimneys. He points at the straining ants. The Big Combination disappears up into the clouds and down into the dead ground. How far in either direction? A mile? Two? Are there children above the clouds, shivering in oxygen masks as they trudge the treadmills and yank the levers and turn the cranks? Children below who bake in the heat of underground fires?
- Black House
This is what happens when it is destroyed:

In world upon world - in worlds strung side by side in multiple dimensions throughout infinity - evils shrivel and disperse: despots choke to death on chicken bones; tyrants fall before assassins' bullets, before the poisoned sweetmeats arrayed by their treacherous mistresses; hooded torturers collapse dying on bloody stone floors. Ty's deed reverberates through the great, numberless string of universes, revenging evil as it spreads. Three worlds over from ours and in the great city there known as Londinorium, Turner Topham, for two decades a respected member of Parliament and for three a sadistic pedophile, bursts abruptly into flame as he strides along the crowded avenue known as Pick-a-Derry. Two worlds down, a nice-looking young welder named Freddy Garver from the Isle of Irse, another, less seasoned member of Topham's clan, turns his torch upon his own left hand and incinerates every particle of flesh off his bones.
Up, up in his high, faraway confinement, the Crimson King feels a deep pain in his gut and drops into a chair, grimacing. Something, he knows, something fundamental, has changed in his dreary fiefdom.
- Black House
A ripple of evil occurs across every world in every universe and dimension of the Dark Tower, reaching up to the highest floor where the true Crimson King is trapped, and he feels it too.

This is, again, unarguably High 1-B.

"Ka is drawing you to the Devar-toi, but a very powerful anti-ka, set in motion by the one you call the Crimson King, is working against you and your tet in a thousand ways."
- The Dark Tower
The Crimson King has his own force that acts as the antithesis to Ka, the fate set and decreed by Gan. This means that the Crimson King can actively defy and ignore Gan's will to an extent.

Again, High 1-B.

"I'm Gan or possessed by Gan, I dont know which, maybe theres no difference." King began to cry. His tears were silent and horrible. "But its not Dis, I turned aside from Dis, I repudiate Dis, and that should be enough but its not, ka is never satisfied, greedy old ka...."
- Song of Susannah
"I'll be a vampire, a slave to him. His scribe, maybe. His pet writer."
"Whose?"
"The Lord of the Spiders. The Crimson King. Tower-pent."
- Song of Susannah
The Red King can grant authors the ability to alter reality. This gives credence that he is an entity like Gan, who is responsible for all stories.

Speaking of that, Insomnia is absolutely, 100% legitimate. To say it's not because of Stephen King's purpose goes completely against the logic of the Dark Tower, which states that all fictional stories of all writers are reflections of some level of the Dark Tower.

"Would you risk destroying that world as well as this, and the other worlds sai King has touched with his imagination, and drawn from? For it was not he that created them, you know. To peek in Gans navel does not make one Gan, although many creative people seem to think so. Would you risk it all?"
- The Dark Tower
"No writer is Gan - no painter, no sculptor, no maker of music. We are kas-ka Gan.......The prophets of Gan."
- The Dark Tower
It was a photocopy of a poem by Robert Browning. King had written the poet's name in his half-script, half-printing above the title. Susannah had read some of Browning's dramatic monologues in college, but she wasn't familiar with this poem. She was, however, extremely familiar with its subject; the title of the poem was "Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came." It was narrative in structure, the rhyme-scheme balladic (a-b-b-a-a-b), and thirty-four stanzas long. Each stanza was headed with a Roman numeral. Someone-King, presumably-had circled stanzas I, II, XIII, XIV, and XVI.
"Read the marked ones," he said hoarsely, "because I can only make out a word here and there, and I would know what they say, would know it very well."

"Stanza the First," she said, then had to clear her throat. It was dry. Outside the wind howled and the naked overhead bulb flickered in its flyspecked fixture.
"My first thought was, he lied in every word,
That hoary cripple, with malicious eye Askance to watch the working of his lie On mine, and mouth scarce able to afford Suppression of the glee, that pursed and scored Its edge, at one more victim gained thereby."
"Collins," Roland said. "Whoever wrote that spoke of Collins as sure as King ever spoke of our ka-tet in his stories!"
- The Dark Tower
"This is the inner keep," she said. "Beyond it is the village of Fedic, now deserted, all dead of the Red Death a thousand years ago and more. Beyond that - "
"The Red Death?" Susannah asked, startled (also frightened in spite of herself). "Poe's Red Death? Like in the story?" And why not? Hadn't they already wandered into - and then back out of - L. Frank Baum's Oz? What came next? The White Rabbit and the Red Queen?
- Song of Susannah
This applies even to all stories written by Stephen King, as he inserts himself in the Dark Tower books and outright shows that his stories are inspired by Gan and are all true in the Dark Tower.

So it doesn't matter why Stephen King wrote Insomnia, it is, by definition, 100% true and acceptable.

As are the comicbooks. To try and divide "Canon' into The Dark Tower goes completely against the philosophy of the book series.

In fact, it goes against the overall idea of the story to separate it from the rest of fiction, but by necessity we do that or else it'd be impossible to Tier Gan, The Crimson King, and Bessa.

Also, yes, as Aeyu said, the idea that the Old Ones, three-dimensional beings with Infinite-Dimensional Technology, are infinite levels of infinity above the ******* shadow counterpart to Gan Himself, who predates the Dark Tower and heralds from the realm beyond it, is inane.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

So yeah, in summary.

The Crimson King is consistently described as High 1-B in every source. To ignore this is to deliberately ignore further context and cosmology, in a way equivalent to saying that a car that was described as "red" in a previous chapter isn't red anymore because the current paragraph isn't repeating details you're already supposed to know, or are supposed to learn later.

The notion of separating "Canon" and "Non Canon" in The Dark Tower is completely counter to the purpose and theme of the series. That all stories are real and exist in the Dark Tower, including the Dark Tower book series by Stephhe King.

 

[The_Everlasting]

I have to agree with Matt.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Matt

First quote is about the birth of Maerlyn, not the Crimson King. The very next lines are:

"And out of that ki'box stepped a being that looked like the creatures that would later be called human, but human it was not. The firstborn of the Outer Dark was an agent of magic, and it called itself Maerlyn."

The second quote (the linked one) is about how the King wants to destroy the Tower, which is obviously true, but not done under his own power, as made clear throughout the books.

The third quote literally just says that there are two Kings, one of whom is locked away (the higher one). It says "he would bring the Tower down" because that's exactly what he wants to do. Again, it's not collapsed via his own power.

The combined two quotes from Insomnia just say the King is from higher levels of reality.

The King's power plant is also not his own power.

Setting in motion an anti-Ka is not High 1-B. It's the equivalent of saying "something is trying to oppose your destiny".

A writer working as a slave to Dis isn't High 1-B, either. Nor does it show he's comparable to Gan.


One could make a significantly stronger argument for "why Insomnia should be taken into account" than "why the Crimson King scales to Gan" with this.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Not saying that the Crimson King is = Gan. I'm saying that he exists on the highest level of existence of the Dark Tower and both predates / possibly transcends it.

The True King is locked away and that's why he has to resort to a lower manifestation and use that to try and take down the Tower through a complex plan.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

That assumes he can destroy the Tower on his own though, which is the very thing we need proof of, in the first place.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

That's precisely why his true self is imprisoned. Because if he wasn't he'd destroy the Tower. All the "He needs outside help and tools to destroy it" doesn't come from the True Crimson King.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I agree with Matt and Aeyu

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Do you at least agree that the Insomnia and the comic are perfectly usable?

 

[Aeyu]

I would argue the Tower itself being At least High 1-B, or possibly 1-A, given that it's explicitly stated to transcend size itself:

"Think how small such a concept of things make us, gunslinger! If a God watches over it all, does He actually mete out justice for such a race of gnats? Does His eye see the sparrow fall when the sparrow is less than a speck of hydrogen floating disconnected in the depth of space? And if He does see... what must the nature of such a God be? Where does He live? How is it possible to live beyond infinity? Imagine the sand of the Mohaine Desert, which you crossed to find me, and imagine a trillion universes - not worlds by universes - encapsulated in each grain of that desert; and within each universe an infinity of others. We tower over these universes from our pitiful grass vantage point; with one swing of your boot you may knock a billion billion worlds flying off into darkness, a chain never to be completed. Size, gunslinger... size. Yet suppose further. Suppose that all worlds, all universes, met at a single nexus, a single pylon, a Tower. And within it, a stairway, perhaps rising to the Godhead itself. Would you dare climb to the top, gunslinger? Could it be that somewhere above all of endless reality, there exists a room?..."

"Out of the Prim arose Gan, animating spirit of the Dark Tower. From the magical waters dripping out of his navel, Gan spun the physical universe. But sensing that one world was not large enough to contain all possible manifestations of life and experience, he divided the universe into multiple, parallel realities, and set six magnetic Beams in place to maintain the alignment of time, space, size, and dimension in all of them. Gan sat at the center of the world-web, singing the rocks and mountains and trees into existence, singing the song of the White"

Same sort of logic as a Type IV Multiverse.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

As far as the comics are concerned, they were stated by the author of them to be a completely separate continuity from the novels. Twice.

This is the first time she said it:



And this is the second time:

How do your graphic novels fit in the Dark Tower universe? Dark Tower fans often discuss this question. The way I see it, the only truly canonical Dark Tower works are those written by Stephen King himself. Everything else exists on a slightly different level of the Tower.''
	~ Robin Furth's interview on CemetaryDance​

In regards to Insomnia, even if we take it as being a part of the mythos, there still needs to be a change in regards to some of the powers shown in that novel, as the respect thread which calls the protection of Ed Deepneau "plot shields" has misinterpreted them completely.

At the very least, are we also in agreement that Los' needs to be downgraded? Because if all of the evidence of the Crimson King needing outside tools is pointing to Los' alone, then that means he's nowhere close to High 1-B. Which is one of the point I was attempting to make in the OP.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@MrKing

Doesn't Maerlyn directly confirm Los' is absolute garbage tier in one of the quotes you posted?

Edit: Yeah, he does.

""The Covenant Man," Tim whispered.

Maerlyn threw back his head and laughed. His conical cap stayed on, which Tim thought magical in itself. "Nay, nay, not he. Little magic and long life's all he's capable of. No, Tim, there's one far greater than he of the broad cloak. When the Great One points his finger from where he bides, the Broad Cloak scurries."

He's definitely not Tier 1.

On the subject of Dis, I would be perfectly willing to believe him as High 1-B. The problem is, we need evidence Dis could actually destroy the Tower on his own, if allowed.

And nobody has presented that.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"When I think about differences between the novels and the comics - and there are many of them - I always keep in mind Jake Chambers' famous phrase, "There are other worlds than these." The Dark Tower contains many levels, and within those levels are parallel worlds which mirror each other, but which are not exactly alike. I always view the Dark Tower comics as existing in one of these parallel worlds."

"Dark Tower fans often discuss this question. The way I see it, the only truly canonical Dark Tower works are those written by Stephen King himself. Everything else exists on a slightly different level of the Tower."

She is outright stating that the the events of the comic exist in the Dark Tower, because the Dark Tower is a multiverse.

They are 100% canon, and these quotes close the case on that.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

@MrKing Doesn't Maerlyn directly confirm Los' is absolute garbage tier in one of the quotes you posted?

If you're referring to "Little magic and long life's all he's capable of.", then no. That's him talking about the Covenant Man, who is somebody else.

If you're referring to the one about how he wishes to slay Aslan and the rest of the Beam Guardians and can't, that's referring to Dis. (A.K.A. the King pent at the top of the Tower)

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Los is most likely not High 1-B, tho.

Los is also not the Crimson King's only manifestation. Only the true self is High 1-B I feel.

 

[Aeyu]

The Tower is restricting him, though, is it not? I think we should address the previous DG of Gan and the Tower as well in this thread, which I take back my previous reasoning for (in the thread that DG'd them)

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The Tower is restricting him, though, is it not? I think we should address the previous DG of Gan and the Tower as well in this thread, which I take back my previous reasoning for (in the thread that DG'd them)

Los' or Dis?

Obviously Dis is imprisoned, but nothing is actively restricting Los'.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

If the Tower is restricting Dis, then he's just a lower end of High 1-B than Gan's physical manifestation is.

Gan's physical manifestation is explicitly the reason the verse reaches High 1-B in the first place. By the definition of its structure, the Tower itself does not reach any higher than that.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Los and the other avatars don't seem to be High 1-B. Dis definitely is due to existing in the highest level of the Tower and being barred from destroying it, which is why he has to resort to avatars who have to use technology and planning to execute his goal.

 

[Aeyu]

The Big Combination also amplifies the King's power.

And @King my argument is that the Tower itself is akin to a Type IV multiverse, containing all possible extrapolations of dimension and size as well as all possible experiences; this is outlined in Gan's profile with the Tower being one with absolutely everything. I would call the Tower At least High 1-B, possibly 1-A and I would call Gan a straight 1-A. The Tower transcends and encompasses size; why would it not with dimensions and experience as well?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The problem is that without flat out mentioning dimensions, said description of the Tower is kinda the basic requirement for something to actually reach High 1-B. We can't just rate it as "At least High 1-B" for what it "might" be.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Where is it stated that the King's Forge amplifies Los' power?

 

[Aeyu]

@Azzy

Except it does mention dimensions, more so than the Downstreamers, who were agreed to be At least High 1-B by yourself.

"Few if any seemed to have grasped the truest principle of reality: new knowledge leads to yet more awesome mysteries. Greater physiological knowledge of the brain makes the existence of the soul less possible yet more probable by the nature of the search. Do you see? Of course you don't. You've reached the limits of your ability to comprehend. But nevermind - that's beside the point."

"What is the point then?"

"The greatest mystery the universe offers is not life but size. Size encompasses life, and the Tower encompasses size. The child, who is most at home with wonder, says: Daddy, what is above the sky? And the father says: The darkness of space. The child: What is beyond space? The father: The galaxy. The child: Beyond the galaxy? The father: Another galaxy. The child: Beyond the other galaxies? The father: No one knows.

"You see? Size defeats us. For the fish, the lake in which he lives is the universe. What does the fish think when he is jerked up by the mouth through the silver limits of existence and into a new universe where the air drowns him and the light is blue madness? Where huge bipeds with no gills stuff it into a suffocating box abd cover it with wet weeds to die?

"Or one might take the tip of the pencil and magnify it. One reaches the point where a stunning realization strikes home: The pencil tip is not solid; it is composed of atoms which whirl and revolve like a trillion demon planets. What seems solid to us is actually only a loose net held together by gravity. Viewed at their actual size, the distances between these atoms might become league, gulfs, aeons. The atoms themselves are composed of nuclei and revolving protons and electrons. One may step down further to subatomic particles. And then to what? Tachyons? Nothing? Of course not. Everything in the universe denies nothing; to suggest an ending is the one absurdity.

"If you fell outward to the limit of the universe, would you find a board fence and signs reading DEAD END? No. You might find something hard and rounded, as the chick must see the egg from the inside. And if you should peck through the shell (or find a door), what great and torrential light might shine through your opening at the end of space? Might you look through and discover our entire universe is but part of one atom on a blade of grass? Might you be forced to think that by burning a twig you incinerate an eternity of eternities? That existence rises not to one infinite but to an infinity of them?"

Coupled with:

"Out of the Prim arose Gan, animating spirit of the Dark Tower. From the magical waters dripping out of his navel, Gan spun the physical universe. But sensing that one world was not large enough to contain all possible manifestations of life and experience, he divided the universe into multiple, parallel realities, and set six magnetic Beams in place to maintain the alignment of time, space, size, and dimension in all of them. Gan sat at the center of the world-web, singing the rocks and mountains and trees into existence, singing the song of the White"

 

[FateAlbane]

Matt makes a good number of points, guess I'm siding with him atm.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Literally none of those used the word dimension except for the last one, though? And that one is about Gan creating the Tower and Beams.

 

[LordGinSama]

Once again I'll have to side with Aeyu and Matt.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

And again, I will ask someone to actually post a statement about Dis being High 1-B/able to completely destroy the Tower on his own, because that's a lot more important than asserting "he just can".

 

[Aeyu]

The implication is less about the specifics of the word dimension and more about the fact that it's heavily shown that the Tower (which is explicitly stated to transcend the concept of size on infinitely infinite levels) is the linchpin of all possible states of experience, size, dimension, space and time. The Prim lacked any of these features - it was a conceptual void, a realm of "pure chaos".

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The implication is less about the specifics of the word dimension and more about the fact that it's heavily shown that the Tower (which is explicitly stated to transcend the concept of size on infinitely infinite levels) is the linchpin of all possible states of experience, size, dimension, space and time. The Prim lacked any of these features - it was a conceptual void, a realm of "pure chaos".

Notice how I said this is kind of the minimum requirement for High 1-B without mentioning dimensions. That was the important part. We cannot upgrade it based on the logic of "The Tower meets the requirement for High 1-B, therefore the Tower is At least High 1-B".

"conceptual void of pure chaos" seems to be very far from what is needed for 1-A these days, or the Chaos Gods would have been there, long ago.

 

[Aeyu]

The key thing is all possible experiences and size are encompassed and treanscended. That's very similar to the Old Ones in the Manifold trilogy. Almost exactly, in fact, seeing that there is infinite levels of infinitely infinite multiverses. The "multiple dimensions throughout infinity" thing only bolsters this. And Gan transcends these concepts, he spun them from his very navel with "magic power", causing the void of the Prim to recede.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes. That meets the requirement for High 1-B (for the Tower). But it is not "At least High 1-B" by sheer virtue of reaching said requirements.

 

[Aeyu]

Not to incur the response that will inevitably be "Are you questioning the tiering system?!" because I'm not attempting to inspire any change as to that (see my latest post in a thread regarding that) but what exactly defines 1-A anyway? Being conceptually transcendent to the necessity of time and space on infinite levels seems like the very essence of 1-A.

 

[Aeyu]

@Azzy

How is that not exactly like the Downstreamers though?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Not to incur the response that will inevitably be "Are you questioning the tiering system?!" because I'm not attempting to inspire any change as to that (see my latest post in a thread regarding that) but what exactly defines 1-A anyway?

Haha, at this point, it's hard to say. Though that is honestly just because we're so careful about that Tier, most of the time. Usually we settle for "demonstrates complete and utter transcendence of infinitely layered/all forms of existence on a conceptual level". This is also part of why Gan has a possibility of being 1-A, while I do not see the same from the Tower itself, at this point.

This is why it's often so hard for things to become 1-A without beating you over the head with it.

Though at this point, this isn't really about the main topic of the thread.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Azzy
How is that not exactly like the Downstreamers though?

"Infinitely-layered multiverses on top of infinitely-layered multiverses", assuming I'm remembering that correctly and it's legit.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

They don't say that I'm sure.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

My opinion:

Gan's true self and Bessa are likely 1-A.

Gan's physical form is High 1-B. The Crimson King is also on this level. He is a threat to all of existence under his own power, has to be directly restricted by Gan's power, and is the shadow projected by Gan's light.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Obviously not, but it's the idea I'm getting at.

Unless that's also based on misinformation or things not in the books, because then they wouldn't have the "At least", either.