Creating Concepts

[Ultima_Reality]

So... I was thinking about that for a while... But anyways...

Is creating and predating the very concepts of Time and Space a Low 2-C feat? or is it higher? Sorry if this seems like a stupid question, but i just wanted to know

(Note that i'm not talking about predating a universe / multiverse / blah blah blah and it's space-time, i am talking about predating the very concepts of Time and Space)

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

As you're transcending the very concept of 4-Dness you'd technically be 5-D, but I never saw it being used that way...

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

But wouldn't predating the very concepts of Space and Time be a 1-A feat?

I mean its not like predating the Space and Time of a Universe or a Multiverse but the very concepts themselves which im pretty sure High 1-B's are still bound to.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

@Saikou

I mean, the concept of Time being 4-D doesn't make much sense to be honest, since i'm pretty sure all (hipotetical) higher and lower dimensions would be bound by this concept

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

In term of String Theory, higher dimensions aren't really bound by time, since they define the relation between whole space-time continuums. For example, 5-D is the distance between two universes for example.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

@Ultima It's less that Time is 4-D

It's more that time is 3+1-D

There could be a species that has 1000 spatial dimensions, but are still bound by the same time that we are.

At least that's how I understand it.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

@Saikou

But Time in this context is just Time in the sense of Space-Time Continuums or the very concept of Time?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

But, to sum my question up:

Predating and creating the very concepts of Space and Time is considered as a feat pertaining to what Tier?

Personally, i think predating and then creating these very concepts being anything lower than 1-A doesn't make sense, hypothetically, all higher and lower dimensions as portrayed in fiction most of the time (Higher planes infinitely above lower ones) would still be bound by the concept of Time and Space, and predating them likely means you are unbound by them

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Bumpo

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Time is just another dimension. Unless you transcends ALL dimensions on a conceptual level you'd just be High 1-B or below.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I'm not refering to Time as a Temporal Dimension, i'm refering to Time as a Concept

What i am saying is: The Concept of Time should obviously encompass all forms of time, regardless of their "size" or complexity, because despite being infinitely bigger and infinitely more complex, they are still forms of Time, hence they should logically be encompassed by The Concept of Time, for obvious reasons

That being said, a being who is unbound / predates this very concept should be Tier 1 by definition, since being unbound by the very Concept of Time would logically mean they are unbound by all forms of Time, because like i said in the sentence above, they are still Time, regardless of their size and complexity, hence they are still being encompassed by the idea of Time

 

[The_Everlasting]

Regardless of whether or not it would qualify for 1-A, the fact is that practically any character who does this is not 1-A.

Unless you want to say literally every creator god is 1-A regardless of the verse or setting.

 

[SITHISIT]

if the above is true that transcending the total concepts of time and space altogether is 1-A......


ooh shit im going to have a fun day with the TES revisions.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

You would need that to be clarified. Simply transcending time isn't proof enough of 1-A, since the "concept" of time could only apply to 4D time. You need specifications that this includes all levels of time possible.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Regardless of whether or not it would qualify for 1-A, the fact is that practically any character who does this is not 1-A.

Unless you want to say literally every creator god is 1-A regardless of the verse or setting.

The size of the setting doesn't matter when you are already unbounded by the very concepts of Time and Space altogether, unless you want to say that a being who is already transcendent over those very concepts in a verse would suddently become bound by them when entering a verse with a bigger setting

EDIT: Seeing most people completely disagree and are really skeptical about this, i guess this thread can be closed...?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

If you transcend the concept of 4-D time, it doesn't make you superior to, say, 7-D time unless you were specifically stated to transcend all forms of time.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Wait, so you're telling me if there's a tier 2 that transcends the concept of time, he's 1-A?

Wouldn't that make Arceus 1-A?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

The thing is, why would a being who predates the Concepts of Time and Space be bound by any other form of Time and Space? These concepts should logically encompass all of their forms, because they already are the very idea of Time and Space, and all forms of Time and Space are still Time and Space, regardless of their size and complexity

 

[Sir_Ovens]

That would be a nightmare for powerscaling though.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

They're the very idea of space-time as understood by the setting, which is at their 4-D form.

You can't assume that they transcend ALL forms of space and time based on them transcending the concept of 4-D space-time.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Actually, this is no different tham saying a being who is from a verse with 4 dimensions, but is trascendent over the concept of "Dimension" isn't 1-A, because "it isn't specified if they are above the concept of "4th Dimension or all dimensions"

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Transcending / Creation the Concept of Space and Time is not enough for 1-A.

However, creating the Concepts of Space and Time on all levels and definitions definitely is. See Gan for a character that does that.

 

[ProspectX]

Also Akuto Sai

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Well, to my understanding, a being who transcends the concept of "Dimension" will be 1-A, even if the setting their pertain to is 4-D, because regardless of how many dimensions they choose to apply upon their setting to "expand" it, they will still be absolutely transcendent and unbounded by any of them, because they are already above the very concept of "dimension", hence no dimension or higher plane of existence can ever hope to reach or apply to them

My question is: Why can't the same principle apply to beings who transcend or predate the Concepts of Time and Space? Since their mechanics are essentially the same: It doesn't matter how many levels or forms of Space and Time they apply to the setting to expand it, none of these levels can ever hope to reach such entity, because they are already above the very concepts which define said levels' existences

^ Why do we have to make a distinction between these two kinds of entities, if the way they function is essentially the same?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Bump

 

[Aeyu]

Transcending dimensions, if there are an infinite number, would be High 1-B. Only if they are dimensionless beings do those characters become 1-A, as defined by the new definitio of 1-A. Characters no longer need to transcend all concepts or physicality in order to be 1-A, only simply be unlimited by dimensions. I have a thread open right now about this, regarding what defines 1-A characters.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Well, i am not refering to transcending Infinite Dimensions

My question now is:

If characters who transcend the Concept of "Dimension" are 1-A, why would characters who predate / transcend the Concepts of "Time and Space" be any different? Since the way they function is essentially the same, like my above comment pointed out

 

[Aeyu]

Most likely this is because spatial and temporal dimensions aren't the only kinds of physical dimensions that can be accounted for; though I have not received confirmation of this intricacy from other admins, I assume this to be the case.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It's far easier to prove that "dimension" includes ALL dimensions than it is to prove that transcending the concept of space-time includes all possible levels of spacetime, when most fiction only ever acknowledges the existence of 4-D spacetime.

Seriously so many people would be 1-A if we accepted this. Transcending the concept of space-time isn't that uncommon.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

@Aeyu

Yes, they may the only ones acconted for, but being unbound by the concepts of Time and Space, which define their existences, would logically be 1-A

Well, to my understanding, a being who transcends the concept of "Dimension" will be 1-A, even if the setting their pertain to is 4-D, because regardless of how many dimensions they choose to apply upon their setting to "expand" it, they will still be absolutely transcendent and unbounded by any of them, because they are already above the very concept of "dimension", hence no dimension or higher plane of existence can ever hope to reach or apply to them

My question is: Why can't the same principle apply to beings who transcend or predate the Concepts of Time and Space? Since their mechanics are essentially the same: It doesn't matter how many levels or forms of Space and Time they apply to the setting to expand it, none of these levels can ever hope to reach such entity, because they are already above the very concepts which define said levels' existences

^ Why do we have to make a distinction between these two kinds of entities, if the way they function is essentially the same?

(sorry for the wall of text though, i just want to clarify things)

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

If I'm not wrong, String Theory itself strictly defines space-time as the first four dimensions. Anything higher is "space-like" but not truly space nor time.

 

[Aeyu]

Depends on which version of string theory; there are many different versions. Those higher dimensions could be seen as spatiotemporal in some theories, if they exist at all. No version of string theory has corroborative evidence that isn't circumstantial or mathematically based at this point.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

It's far easier to prove that "dimension" includes ALL dimensions than it is to prove that transcending the concept of space-time includes all possible levels of spacetime, when most fiction only ever acknowledges the existence of 4-D spacetime.

What even is the difference though? It doesn't matter if most fiction only aknowledges the existence of 4-D Space and Time. There is no difference between transcending the concept of "dimension" and be 1-A and transcending the concept of "Space and Time" and be 1-A, because entities of both cases function in the same way: No matter how many higher levels they apply to the verse to expand it, these higher levels will never be able to reach or even apply to such entity, because they are already unbounded by the conceppts that defines the very existence of said levels

 

[Aeyu]

If the verse is only a Low 2-C verse though, if they transcend all *possible* space and time they could either be seen as High 1-B or 1-A, depending on whether or not their transcendence is infinite or dimensionless entirely.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

@Ultima All what you said in the second part needs to be specified though. You certainly can't be 1-A just via transcending space-time.

The difference is, again, dimensions (as in spatial and temporal) will always refer to not only the 4 first dimension but also all higher ones. Spacetime can refer only to base 4-D space-time. You NEED proof that said character transcend the concept of space-time on every levels possible.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

@Saikou

Again, i'm refering to the very concepts of space and time

Why would these two concepts be limited to the first 4 Dimensions, when they are the very ideas that define the existences of all higher and lower spatial and temporal dimensions and of all levels of space and time? After all, they are still space and time

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

A different, higher dimensional space-time at best or not even spacetime at worse. You can't assume it apply to higher dimensions when it has only shown/been stated to apply to 4-D spacetime. That's a NLF.

Again, 1-A Arceus when? This would be prone to abuse and wank if we were to accept that.

 

[Aeyu]

If a character is infinitely superior to spatio-temporal dimensions, they are High 1-B unless they are unlimited by all dimensions altogether.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Again, these two concepts are still the ideas that define the existences of all levels of space and time, because they are still space and time, you can't just assume they only apply to 4-D Space-Time when they literally define the existence of all kinds of Space and Time by definition

I'm pretty sure The Pokémon abstracts only embody the regular 4-D Space-Time that makes up the multivers, not the very ideas of space and time

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

You need specifications that it defines all levels of space-time in the work itself, not just assume it out of a character transcending the very idea of space-time.