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none that I'm aware of. Right now I'm still waiting for the Lindons Low-gold calc to be evaluated so that it can be used for scaling and I'm going through the first few books for feats to scale coppers, irons and jades toHas there been any update on the calcs by the way?
Why though? Only a small portion of the actual breath was dragged across the moon for a brief moment less than a second while the rest of it was just blasted randomly into space while the dragon flailed around. The method I used is clearly more indicative of the attacks power rather than what would be just a small fraction of it that grazed the moon.I disagree with your method of calcing the Weeping Dragon's attack. I think it would be better to calc the damage it did to the moon rather than KE for an energy feat.
Class 2 Fiends are comparable to silverlords and can participate in battles involving the Judges (though like Silverlords they aren't on par with the Judges on their own). Any Fiend which isn't a Class one (the only of which exist in verse are Oth'kimeth and the Great Elders from Elder Empire) would scale below or on par with a Class 2 which includes the following:I'm not sure about EoS Lindon's tiering though, as we have no timeframe for the Fiend's destruction of all that stuff. Do Class 2 Fiends have any feats in other books?
I don't think KE is correct to use for this kind of attack. It is a madra-based attack, its not physically moving the mass of the storm up to the moon. You can't really use KE for beam attacks.Why though? Only a small portion of the actual breath was dragged across the moon for a brief moment less than a second while the rest of it was just blasted randomly into space while the dragon flailed around. The method I used is clearly more indicative of the attacks power rather than what would be just a small fraction of it that grazed the moon.
The Weeping Dragon causes storms by agitating the Aura around it so the storm is 100% natural as aura manipulate natural elements and according to Will aura is even what causes natural phenomena to occur normally on Cradle anywaysI don't think KE is correct to use for this kind of attack. It is a madra-based attack, its not physically moving the mass of the storm up to the moon. You can't really use KE for beam attacks.
It's stated to be a solid and clearly "beam of light" isn't literal(if it was we'd treat this attack as Lightspeed) just a descriptor because it's a predominantly glowing yellow beam. Again the storm didn't just get erased from existence when it was compressed into the dragons mouth so that mass is clearly still thereThe storm is natural, but I don't think we should treat madra the same way we treat physical mass. And again, its a beam of light.
It absorbed the storm as well as the aura that is clearly in the scan.Its absorbing the aura which it used to power its attack.
It compressed the physical mass of the storm along with aura and madra(from it's lightning dragons & itself) and then fired it as an attack. To deny this eitherKE can only be used if it was literally pushing the physical mass of the storm, which isn't what happened. We can't use KE for a beam of madra light.
I'll try to but againCall in some mods to ask them, because I really think KE can't be used here.
1. It isn't physical mass, it is madra energy. It is only describes as looking like its solid.
2. It isn't a projectile, it is a beam of energy.
I still hold my stance on the calc because of the reasons I gave, I hold to the fact that the beam itself never actually fully hit the moon becauseI still don't like the Waybound calc, as its not like the entire mass is moving up to the moon. Its just a beam growing upwards, so half of the mass never moves more than halfway to the moon. I also generally don't like KE calcs like this because I feel like they almost always result in a much more inflated value than what the author intended. Like all we see of the attack is a gash on the moon, I really don't think it was intended to be a Planetary attack. I think it would be better to just use a fire calc for the full volume of the beam.
To give you more context on why I labeled that feats as 3-B, I'll need to present some extra info.I am uncertain about 3-B as well. The use of the word "Spawn" instead of "Iteration" makes me think it was talking about just the planet. Like iirc, in every instance where its the whole universe being affected they use the word "iteration." The Lindon feat that 4-A comes from says that Iteration 110 shook, not that Cradle shook. I think for EoS Lindon we should just say "At least 4-A" as the Fiend he was fighting destroyed the whole Iteration over time (we have no timeframe). I could be wrong, but I just feel like that feat isn't solid enough to be 3-B. There way be context I don't remember that indicates it is talking about the whole Iteration though.
The full power of the beam clearly doesn't hit the moon. While it is releasing the breath the Dragons head gets forced up by Lindon and it starts flailing around randomly, in this flailing it just passes over the moon for less than a second. It not that "It took less than a second for the beam to reach the moon and cut across it", it scraps across the moon for only less than a secondThe full power of the beam did hit the moon, there isn't any implication otherwise, its just that it cut across it in a slashing motion. It took less than a second for the beam to reach the moon and cut across it, but during that cutting motion the full force of the beam still hit the moon. Even with this powerful beam cutting across the moon, it still only left a gash, no where near Planetary.
The mass flow rate x K.E term from Bernoullis equation to get the K.E of gas flowing in a tubular shape/pipe (since it's a beam)Also what formula are you using? Like where did you get it from?
That's not really relevant since they just downscale from it due to Northstrider still being able to survived full on getting hit by it either way, they all only get an "At most" rating from itAnd regardless, I'm unsure if anyone scales anyway. The attack is treated as being on a completely different level than any other Monarch or Dreadgod attack.
Should have just bought the e book on kindle or somethingPlaced an order for book 1 now all I gotta do is wait until December
I prefer the physical copy tbhShould have just bought the e book on kindle or something
Funny enough a few months ago the author celebrated his 10th anniversary for publishing his books by setting all the e books of every book he'd ever written till that point to 0 dollars for a limited time
Nothing indicates that anything less than the full power of the beam hit the moon. Yes, it was flailing around randomly and hit it for less than one second, but it still did hit the moon. Its a beam, and cut across it, but it did hit it. It specifically says "like a dagger" meaning it was still in concentrated laser-like beam form, and not a shotgun-like spray. When it says spraying it breath randomly, it essentially means the equivalent of flailing a laser pointer around.The full power of the beam clearly doesn't hit the moon. While it is releasing the breath the Dragons head gets forced up by Lindon and it starts flailing around randomly, in this flailing it just passes over the moon for less than a second. It not that "It took less than a second for the beam to reach the moon and cut across it", it scraps across the moon for only less than a second
The dragon is spewing the breath randomly causing most of it to spray into space, it just happens to cross the moon for less than a second which left the mark
The mass flow rate x K.E term from Bernoullis equation to get the K.E of gas flowing in a tubular shape/pipe (since it's a beam)
That's not really relevant since they just downscale from it due to Northstrider still being able to survived full on getting hit by it either way, they all only get an "At most" rating from it
In terms of the Dreadgods/Lindon, they all immediately get amped and empowered far beyond the dragon once it dies
Of course it does, its a beam attack that only barely scraps across the surface of the moon for less than a second while the vast majority of the beam gets sprayed away, if the beam hit dead on the moon and all of it was directly being pumped at the moon the damage would have been obviously higher, with that knowledge in mind it make literally no sense to take the minimal amount of energy from the beam that caused damage to the moon as the total energy of the entire beamNothing indicates that anything less than the full power of the beam hit the moon. es, it was flailing around randomly and hit it for less than one second, but it still did hit the moon. Its a beam, and cut across it, but it did hit it. It specifically says "like a dagger" meaning it was still in concentrated laser-like beam form, and not a shotgun-like spray. When it says spraying it breath randomly, it essentially means the equivalent of flailing a laser pointer around.
No one says he "tanked it", he just survived it which was stated in Chp 17 of Waybound.Also, when did Northstrider tank this technique? I know he fought it in the past but he got crushed by it, and I don't remember him ever tanking it.
That's not relevant to the calc at all because no aspect of the calc uses values that would have changes in the time between its growth in strength or the scaling. The Dreadgods are stronger after the silent kings death but to an unquantifiable degree which isn't relevant as Lindon himself can still effectively fight one of them(with the help of little blue + Orthos doesn't factor into this because they are both only able to contend through borrowing Lindons own power) rather than after the Dragon dies where it takes multiple Monarchs and even multiple attacks from multiple monarchs are treated like a blood nose to them which was made quantifiable by scaling to the multipliers belowI know he fought it in the past but he got crushed by it, and I don't remember him ever tanking it. Its also important to mention that this Weeping Dragon was much weaker than the current one, as the Silent King hadn't been killed yet
Which is why they only downscale???And again, Ziel directly said it was beyond any technique he had ever seen from a Monarch or Dreadgod
Yeah no, this is made wrong by the fact that Lindon literally gets the breath attack after killing the Dragon and making his swordI really don't think anyone should scale to that attack, since it is a special technique beyond anything else characters are capable of, and the amp Lindon gets after the Weeping Dragon is killed is pretty unquantifiable. Basically:
Breath attack >>> Amped Weeping Dragon's normal moves >> base Weeping Dragon > Monarchs ≥ Lindon (at the time)
Keep that highlighted part in mind because the Dragon sword works exactly the same way and we know for a fact that the sword is stronger with an empowered Lindon because Monarch+ weapons are themselves amped proportionally to their users own authority (It's why stuff like the an invisibility cloak made by the angler before the ascended was relevant to making gear as high tier as the origin shroud and why Lindon keeps using the sword after ascending)operates by combining the users power with that of the bow while Using any external arrows with the bow is stated to redouble the power of the bow which is directly explained to have been doubled its power again(essentially the context of the world "redouble" in that second scan is made clear by the 3rd scan explaining how it "doubles again)
No I'm referring to the part literally in the very next paragraph after this:Chapter 17 explicitly says "It is the strongest offensive technique on the planet. It cannot be defended against, only evaded. If you are struck with it you will surely die." Maybe you are referring to another passage I missed, but if not this pretty objectively means no one scales to it.
The full Paragraph is"Is that what happened to you?" Ziel asked bluntly
"No. That's what happened to Northstrider." Cladia gave a pained smile at the memory. "It's why everyone thought he was dead for so long."
She literally in that exact same conversation mentions that Northstrider got hit by it."It is the strongest offensive technique on the planet. It cannot be defended against, only evaded. If you are struck with it you will surely die."
"Is that what happened to you?" Ziel asked bluntly
"No. That's what happened to Northstrider." Cladia gave a pained smile at the memory. "It's why everyone thought he was dead for so long."
He specifically reminisces about the Dragons lightning feeding on him and trying to rip his soul out being the closest he had been to death rather than the breath itself being what brought him closest to death due to it's sheer attack potencyNorthstrider rolled his neck before his body could tense up. The Weeping Dragon had struck him a great blow, enough that most of the world had thought him dead for many years. He could still feel the lightning scorching him as it fed, trying to tear his soul out from his body.
It was the closest he had come to a true death since reaching Monarch.
And it being weaker is incredibly relevant specifically because it is an unquantifiable increase. If you are correct and Northstrider did survive being directly hit by it, then:
- Not being instantly killed is a pretty terrible feat that really shouldn't warrant downscaling in the first place
- It is a Weeping Dragon that is much, much, weaker than the one being calced. Malice went from being able to rival the Wandering Titan to being force to flee.
- You're reason for the damage done to the moon not limiting the power of the attack is that since it was only brief contact, it didn't receive the full power of the beam, correct? If that is the case, then that would also disqualify Northstrider from scaling since we don't know how long he would have even been in contact with the beam.
Simply put, literally everything we know about the about the attack shows that no one scales to it (maybe with the exception of Dreadgods after its death).
- Yerin explicitly says it is the strongest attack and its impossible to defend against
- Ziel says it is beyond anything he has seen from a Monarch or Dreadgod
- Lindon, who at this point was Monarch level, could barely even redirect the attack
- The calc is for a massively amped Weeping Dragon.
Alright, I think that's fine since its more productive than us having a back and forth argument here.Lets just get others in to discuss. I'm not willing to budge on this at all, but if mods or someone outvote me then I'll be willing to accept it
The reason I don't believe they are talking about the planet of Spawn is that Ozriel's clash with the fiend was already affecting the whole universe and Gerravon is on an FTL ship that had already passed through a portal and into the Void, outside of the reality of Spawn. It would make no sense that his strike would only be affecting a planet. To top it all off at the start of this encounter Gerravon had already spread his power across the infinite distance of the sector and was fighting multiple Abidan simultaneously.I am uncertain about 3-B as well. The use of the word "Spawn" instead of "Iteration" makes me think it was talking about just the planet.
Ok, with the added context of a whole Iteration being referred to by its name like that, I think the feat is good. Do you guys think it should solid 3-B or "At least 4-A, likely 3-B?"The reason I don't believe they are talking about the planet of Spawn is that Ozriel's clash with the fiend was already affecting the whole universe and Gerravon is on an FTL ship that had already passed through a portal and into the Void, outside of the reality of Spawn. It would make no sense that his strike would only be affecting a planet. To top it all off at the start of this encounter Gerravon had already spread his power across the infinite distance of the sector and was fighting multiple Abidan simultaneously.
"A dozen more of his Hands clashed against Abidan all over the Sector, but those battles had faded quickly."
I should note that the universe of Oasis is mentioned in a similar way as Spawn.
"Oasis’ central planet was a blue marble beneath Suriel’s feet," It clear that Suriel is referring to the universe not central planet when she uses the iteration's name.
There is one statement you can use to imply that iterations are infinite from Suriel and Makiel's battle with the Mad King.Speaking of, do we have any statements on the size of an Iteration? They are clearly universal in size, but do we have anything beyond that? I tried finding statements that they are infinite, but it seems like only the void and the gaps between Iterations are infinite.
I'm personally fine with either a solid "3-B" rating or a "likely 3-B" ratingOk, with the added context of a whole Iteration being referred to by its name like that, I think the feat is good. Do you guys think it should solid 3-B or "At least 4-A, likely 3-B?"
Are there any other 3-B feats we can use for Silverlord Tier characters? The big Silverlord feats I can think of are:
- A Silverlord's attack implying the destruction of most of an Iteration (3-B)
- Lindon shaking the universe (4-A)
- Silverlords wielding weapons comprised of multiple stars (High 4-C)
- Silverlords casually blow up stars (4-C)
- The Class 2 Fiend that Lindon fights having eaten almost all of an Iteration over time (Mostly unquantifiable, but should be good supporting evidence for the more solid 3-B and 4-A feats)
I've compiled a kind of rundown for the cosmology here though I'm unsatisfied with it and plan on recreating or at least reformatting/editing it sooner or laterSpeaking of, do we have any statements on the size of an Iteration? They are clearly universal in size, but do we have anything beyond that? I tried finding statements that they are infinite, but it seems like only the void and the gaps between Iterations are infinite.
and a similar statement from Lindon during his fight with the Class Two fiendAs Harrow and Limit dissolved and crumbled away into the void, Suriel witnessed once again the death of an Iteration.
The endless darkness of empty space had peeled away first, like black wallpaper peeling away…only to reveal an even deeper hole. The void surrounded them, infinite nothing dotted with swirling balls of color, like a rainbow of fireflies dancing in the night.
Blackflame Chapter 21
The wiki tends to treat the word "Endless" as being equivalent to infinite while countless isn't so there might be an argument to be had using these statements but the argument presented above about Darumans slash sounds interesting to say the leastThe endless darkness of the universe chilled Lindon. It reminded him of looking into the sky and seeing, knowing on a fundamental level, that there was no hope.
Eithan had done battle against the Mad King. Now it was Lindon's turn.
Waybound Chapter 37