Conversion Beamer problem

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Atomization differs greatly than vaporization or ionization; vaporization is heating till it reaches the 3rd state of matter where as ionization is simply heating up till it reaches the 4th state of matter. Atomization is basically nuking the body to the point where there is no body of matter remaining and just a bunch of severed atoms.

 

[Skaffolding]

I probably should have clarified the best estimate for Spacemarine mass comes from a Death Watch number giving 500-1000 kilograms for 2.1 metres. I mentioned the square-cube law since that would likely be used to figure out the number based on the increased height. EIther that or just roughly putting it at 1,000 kilos for simplicities sake which does seem like the safer option now that I think about it.


Also atomization rarely leaves any evidence of the target having existed at all, since you can't see individual atoms and each one needs to be separated for it to be used. Ionization would leave some trace of the target, as would vaporisation.

 

[Crabwhale]

3 meter tall Space Marines are incredibly rare. Marines in general (this seems to be a bog standard one) range from 7 to 8 feet generally, with a median of 7'6".

We're not talking about monsters like Alexis Polux or Asterion Moloc here.

 

[Crabwhale]

Since we're on the matter of durability still, I have been given this quote.

"...the artificer armour's super-dense construction materials and damage control devices enable the wearer to shrug off strikes from anti-tank rockets and even direct hits from battle cannon shells" -Pg.65 Grey Knights Codex

This basically confirms Termie armor > tanks, since very rarely is Artificier armor so well-crafted it is actually tougher than it.

Tanks on the meanwhile are inconsistent as **** in Warhammer. They can range from WW1 tanks (downright ******* stupid and inapplicable in my opinion), to shrugging off nukes.

 

[Skaffolding]

I agree, but for the sake of providing the ability to address a possible counterpoint. The Artificer in question may be more able to do so due to a smaller area, or even the ability to shift their body and reduce the impact (leaning back to glance punches off yourself can help survive them, I believe).

 

[Skaffolding]

Also I was referring to the general trend of exaggerated writing and inconsistent numbers seen in Warhammer in general. I could've sworn I read about Marines being 9+ feet in some novel, I can't recall which though.


If I'm being honest I'd be for making separate profiles for versions of each character using different authors and other such things, but that's probably a topic to be discussed on another thread if at all.

 

[Crabwhale]

I agree, but for the sake of providing the ability to address a possible counterpoint. The Artificer in question may be more able to do so due to a smaller area, or even the ability to shift their body and reduce the impact (leaning back to glance punches off yourself can help survive them, I believe).

...Or you're just digging too deep into this? Seriously, it's far simpler to assume it's just the armor stopping the shell. There's literally nothing to analyze about that quote.

 

[Crabwhale]

Also I was referring to the general trend of exaggerated writing and inconsistent numbers seen in Warhammer in general. I could've sworn I read about Marines being 9+ feet in some novel, I can't recall which though.

If I'm being honest I'd be for making separate profiles for versions of each character using different authors and other such things, but that's probably a topic to be discussed on another thread if at all.

And I assume we'd also make a character profile for every different writer's version of Superman and characters of the like that are written by many different people then?

We don't do that and we have systems in place to prevent it. PIS and CIS and the like. We don't do it because it would be impractical, tedious, and would clash with the general outline of the character's power.

There was a statement once that a Lasgun would be able to kill a helmetless Constantin Valdor. Are we supposed to make a profile for him that's 9-C without the armor? No, because that would be stupid, and a waste of time.

 

[Jaakubb]

So what is the feat for high tier marines going to be?

 

[Crabwhale]

I'm not quite sure. We might have to go feat hunting since the only solid thing so far seems to be that atomization thing (which hasn't been calced yet).

 

[Jaakubb]

Should I make another thread for the old 8-C marines feat?

 

[Skaffolding]

I agree, but for the sake of providing the ability to address a possible counterpoint. The Artificer in question may be more able to do so due to a smaller area, or even the ability to shift their body and reduce the impact (leaning back to glance punches off yourself can help survive them, I believe).

...Or you're just digging too deep into this? Seriously, it's far simpler to assume it's just the armor stopping the shell. There's literally nothing to analyze about that quote.

Yes, it is. I'm just pointing out there's at least an argument there, it's not one I agree with. I think it's safe to say the mention of anti-tank rounds is enough to imply it's piercing which would make area irellevant. And assuming they're shifting their body to absorb extra damage would be unreasonable, just wanted to make sure that potential counter-points are at least being acknowledged.

 

[Skaffolding]

Also I was referring to the general trend of exaggerated writing and inconsistent numbers seen in Warhammer in general. I could've sworn I read about Marines being 9+ feet in some novel, I can't recall which though.

If I'm being honest I'd be for making separate profiles for versions of each character using different authors and other such things, but that's probably a topic to be discussed on another thread if at all.

And I assume we'd also make a character profile for every different writer's version of Superman and characters of the like that are written by many different people then?
We don't do that and we have systems in place to prevent it. PIS and CIS and the like. We don't do it because it would be impractical, tedious, and would clash with the general outline of the character's power.

There was a statement once that a Lasgun would be able to kill a helmetless Constantin Valdor. Are we supposed to make a profile for him that's 9-C without the armor? No, because that would be stupid, and a waste of time.

And on the matter of the different profiles for different authors, fair enough. Though DC has differfent profiles based on different... What would they be called? TImelines? Whatever they are New 52 is separated from the Golden age of superman. And in the case of 40k there are many "interpretations" of Primarchs. I;ve read a lot of Demigods who can outrun lasers or shatter mountains, and I've also read a lot contradicting that. For example Angron being hurt after getting stepped on by a Warhound Titan. Again, I don't really know how viable it is but I can see it working at least in theory. Though this is likely not the best place for this so I'd suggest we both drop it at least for now to avoid clogging the thread any further.

On the topic of 9-C lasguns, they can melt metal, blow off limbs and at close range on their maximum setting do significant harm to a Spacemarine so I can imagine one COULD kill a helmetless Custodian. In the same way I COULD win a fight with a bear i.e the real-life equivalent of triggering Ulric's Fury eight times in a row.

 

[Crabwhale]

Not the mightiest Custodian who ever lived.

 

[Skaffolding]

True. Anyone who can babysit a Primarch is pretty far above worrying about Lasfire, armoured or not.

 

[Skaffolding]

Also, do we not have a calc or anything comparable for lasguns? If so that's quite surprising given how common they are in-world.

 

[Crabwhale]

We don't have any profiles that scale from Lasguns, or that possess Lasguns, so no, we don't.

 

[Skaffolding]

Huh. I've been meaning to make an Ork profile. Give 40ks football hooligans a chance to shine. I imagine they'd probably scale so I may do some digging for a calcable lasgun feat beforehand.

 

[Crabwhale]

Should I make another thread for the old 8-C marines feat?

If you must.

 

[Jaakubb]

Also when are we removing the 6-C stat? I'd rather do that first on second thought.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We should probably ask Matt first since he said he's not sure what the big deal is. Plus, he's quite knowledgeable on Warhammer.

 

[Jaakubb]

I messaged him.

Also did I already talk about why this calc isn't valid?

 

[Skaffolding]

I actually did a recalc for that a while ago using specific heat capacity, since the original calc assumed the projectile was lasting for one second and all sorts of other stuff. Iirc it was approved by at least one calc group member. I'll link it bellow. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Skaffolding/Warhammer_40k:_Handgun_Recalc

 

[Crabwhale]

Also when are we removing the 6-C stat? I'd rather do that first on second thought.

Once we find a suitable replacement.

 

[Jaakubb]

Since the 8-C calc for low tier space marines is pretty dubious, I think it would be better to use the low end result for this calc.

Also could space marines scale to kiloton macrocannons? I forgot why, but I was debating with somebody about how strong space marines are and they mentioned macrocannons. I can vaguely remember them saying that it scales to space marines somehow (I remember this one calc on spacebattles where some ******* idiot assumed that "kiloton ordinance" meant that each projectile weighed a thousand tons).

 

[Crabwhale]

That macro-cannon statement is actually in favor of Adeptus Custodes Terminators, which are far tougher than regular Custodes, which are in turn far stronger than Astartes Terminators. Here is the source.

Also the low end of that calc as far as I'm aware was not the one accepted in the thread that discussed it, and regular Marines wouldn't scale from a Plasma weapon anyway, as it's usually incredibly easy for it to punch through armor.

 

[Jaakubb]

The high end was only used because it was consistent with 8-C space marines iirc.

 

[Crabwhale]

I think I'm just gonna go through the blog listing Marine feats one more time to see if I can find anything calc-able and/or simple enough.

In the meanwhile, we still need something to scale Terminators and the like to.

 

[Jaakubb]

Yeah, there were quite a few vaporization calcs that I think low tier marines could scale to. Custodes terminators could scale to a kiloton, but I don't know about lower tier Custodes and higher tier Astartes.

Also Skaffolding mentioned making profiles for more characters? Could we actually do that with orks, imperial knights and more?

 

[Crabwhale]

Of course you could. Making a profile is purely individual undertaking, you don't need permission.

Macro-cannon shells can harm other void ships so you could make a case for High 6-A Terminator Custodes (scaling to other such weapons), buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut, we don't have any definitive gauge about how much damage they would actually do, and the different classes and what not, so really it's far simpler just to stick a "possibly higher" rating there and leave it at that.

 

[Skaffolding]

About scaling that calc to regular Astartes, I'm fairly sure the high end was approved due to being more consistent with the stated temperature.

Also I'm considering doing a re-re-calc since I think assuming .75 calibre would be more accurate than assuming .50 since that's about the size of a bolt round. What do you guys think?

 

[Jaakubb]

I don't think any of the quotes said it had all the properties of the sun's core, just its temperature. But I don't know.

 

[Skaffolding]

I personally think it's more accurate to use the density of the part of the sun with the same temperature, due to it being one of the only observed circumstances for hydrogen to reach that temperature. Not to mention being regularly compared to miniature suns. Though I also see the merit in using the density of liquid hydrogen since that's what the fuel is described as according to the Lexicanum.

 

[Crabwhale]

Scans > Lexicanum

"How many times do we have to teach you this lesson old man?"

 

[Skaffolding]

When I say "according to Lexicanum"in this case I basically mean "assuming this is correct, I think a point could be made there." I'm not saying we should assume as such, just citing it as the source causing me to think the argument might be there. If that makes sense.

 

[Jaakubb]

Well the temperature in a nuke fireball can exceed the temperature of the core of the sun so does surviving a nuke equate to the at least the pressure in the center of the sun?

 

[Skaffolding]

I don't really have the knowledge to comment, considering I can't find a solid number for a nuclear blast's pressure and that there may well be a miniscule fraction of a second in which it's comparable, as is the case with the temperature.

 

[Jaakubb]

I don't think it's possible for a 100 kiloton nuke to exceed 100 kilotons even for a fraction of a second. How is that physically possible?

 

[Skaffolding]

Because explosive yield is measured in tons of TNT, not tons of weight or force.

Also pressure isn't measured in kilotons, it's measured in pascals, pounds/sauare inch or other units of pressure.

Basically it diesn't need the same force. It could have a millionth of the force, if said force was applied over a millionth of the area then the resulting pressure would be identical.

 

[Jaakubb]

How would the force be applied over a small area? The smallest nuke made was quite a bit bigger than the suitcase bombs in fiction. And energy from an explosion moves outwards and spreads out. Also, the pressure in the core of the sun is around 6-C accounting for total energy in joules, not just energy per [measurement].