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(Concluded) Kenshiro VS Cloud Strife (REDUX)

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So, uh... maybe too late, but though could give some input as FoxySonicMaster says, not really voting or trying to change anything, but I think I could give some info on Cloud for what is worth.

Essentially, Cloud and other Spirit Energy users have Type-4 Acausality (Cloud's profile hasn't been updated to add it but Sephiroth's has it) due to the way the Lifestream flows and branches in its own space-time for each living being (very abridged version). According to the ability page, this actually helps against Precognition, Fate Manipulation and other similar abilities at least.

From what I read around, Ken no longer has Existence Erasure via Musou Tensei nor Non-Existence Physiology, so the reason Cloud couldn't do anything last time has changed and now he legitimately can fight back. Ken can still pop him like a balloon with Pressure Points, though, but Cloud never tanks hits, he either dodges or blocks with his weapons, so he will at least try to avoid contact as much as he can (and he is dexterous enough to fight three people on the level of his teammates at once and avoid their attacks, as seen when he fought the Remnants of Sephiroth)

I don't know how well they would work against Ken, but Cloud does have his own touch of death combination: with the Added Effect + Different Magic Materia, Cloud can make his regular attacks inflict ailments when they connect, these range from Poison, Instant Death, Petrification, Confusion, Time Stop, Time Slowdown, Transmutation into Toads (which prevents the use of spiritual and most physical abilities, as well as greatly weakening the enemy), etc. How well they work, depends on Ken's resistance to them (and well, I really doubt that Ken will just take a slash, he'll likely dodge or catch the Buster Sword). Additionally, the Elemental Materia + the Shiva Summon Materia make Cloud's attack strike with Absolute Zero temperatures.
 
Kenshiro’s Non Existent Physiology was never properly debunked though, only Existence Erasure was. So unless that’s properly debunked, I say Kenshiro could pull a win with Muso Tensei, Pressure Points with his strikes, and can put Cloud in a place where they only fight with their fists (although I don’t know if that’s in character), it won’t be easy for him, but I believe Ken can win this.
 
FoxySonicMaster108 said:
Kenshiro’s Non Existent Physiology was never properly debunked though, only Existence Erasure was. So unless that’s properly debunked, I say Kenshiro could pull a win with Muso Tensei, Pressure Points with his strikes, and can put Cloud in a place where they only fight with their fists (although I don’t know if that’s in character), it won’t be easy for him, but I believe Ken can win this.
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It wasn't? Hmmm... My bad I guess, the topic did mention that Ken had his NEP removed, but looking at his profile properly, Ken still has both NEP and EE, so you got me there what's the standing as of now. Still, don't know if Ken could drag Cloud into a different realm as Cloud resists Dimensional BFR (the Lifestream can forcefully remove living beings from the living world and send them to other realms).

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut... if Ken still has his NEP, there's nothing Cloud can do here, he literally can't reach Ken in any way, and unlike other FF heroes, Cloud never fought creatures from the Void or the Dark World in his own story, who give NPI with Non-Existent beings to other FF characters, so he's pretty much stuck. This was the main reason he lost before, after all.

It would be more even if Ken was just intangible or non-corporeal, the options Cloud has would actually count then >_>;
 
Well tbf if Cloud's acasual Ken's precog won't work so MT's glimpses of the future and aura reading won't help. I think if Cloud resists BFR then he should be good there too against Soryu Tenra. I'd say this is still debatable at least, Muso Tensei does activate on its own if Ken is about to die, but without precog working it might not happen before Cloud tags him.

So I've not really followed FF but does Cloud's magic just spawn on you instantly? Or is that only for the earlier games?
 
If Kenshiro is to land a good pressure point strike in, his victory would likely be assured.

Question is, would he even be able to disarm Cloud? iirc Kenshiro usually disarms his opponent before going in for a kill, and he seems to have experience with disarming weapons from his opponents and then pressure point striking them.

And even then, what stops him from striking a pressure point to cause Cloud to purposely drop the sword if not strike himself with it? Kyosetsu is the pressure point he usually strikes to make the enemy point their weapons at themselves.
 
I'd say this is still debatable at least, Muso Tensei does activate on its own if Ken is about to die, but without precog working it might not happen before Cloud tags him.
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Ah, gotcha. Well, if Ken's NEP isn't permanent Cloud might actually have a shot here.

So I've not really followed FF but does Cloud's magic just spawn on you instantly? Or is that only for the earlier games?
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Funnily enough, FFVII nowadays is one of the earlier games I'd say yes? Well, not so much spawn instantly, rather track the enemy, at least that's how his magic was portrayed in the original game. To be precise, it depends on the spell and the user, since the same spell can be used in different shape (for example, Cloud makes his Thunder spells fall on the enemy, Zack shoots them like a Sith Lord, Zack's Flare is a huge screen filling blast, while Cloud localizes the nuke on a specific target). Status spells though are consistently portrayed as taking effect on the enemy without being shot or travelling, though. All that's needed is a brief instant of focusing.


If Kenshiro is to land a good pressure point strike in, his victory would likely be assured.

Question is, would he even be able to disarm Cloud? iirc Kenshiro usually disarms his opponent before going in for a kill, and he seems to have experience with disarming weapons from his opponents and then pressure point striking them.

And even then, what stops him from striking a pressure point to cause Cloud to purposely drop the sword if not strike himself with it? Kyosetsu is the pressure point he usually strikes to make the enemy point their weapons at themselves.
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Well, all of that is pretty much true. What comes to mind is that Cloud does resist Biological Manipulation, but being honest I don't really know if Pressure Points are even that related to that, aside having a powerful effect on the body and stuff.

What I can think of is that Cloud actually does avoid direct physical contact a lot when he fights, if he blocks it will always with his weapon and will try to dodge as much as possible. The only time I've ever seen him getting disarmed was losing one of his swords in Advent Children and his reaction was to go after it right away. Might be worth noting, that unlike his teammates, there's no indication Cloud is skilled in unarmed combat. Given he was an infantryman, he did receive some basic degree of hand to hand training, but nowhere near the martial arts you could see from SOLDIER like Zack or the Turks. This is both a curse and a blessing, if he's disarmed there's absolutely nothing he can do against Ken (and to be honest, given Ken's overwhelming advantage in technique, skill and experience, even armed Cloud is in an uphill battle here), but also means Cloud is more likely to fall back and resort to Magic or Summons if he loses his sword. Additionally, Sense/Assess can tip Cloud that Kenshiro can strike his pressure points to instantly kill him.

Another thing that may be worth bringing up... How do they fare in terms of AP? I know this kinda redundant given this is Ken-"I can kill you in more ways than I can not"-Shiro, but if they are going to trade blows and maybe grapple with the weapon this could be relevant in the end. Please correct me if I am wrong, Cloud does seem to have the advantage in Lifting Strength (which from what I could gather is what is considered when you wrestle in a fight with weapons and such), being Class E against Ken's Class M. On the other hand, from what I could gather, Ken holds the advantage in AP, being around 900 Petatons at the very base, but multiplying all the way to 5-C. Cloud on the other hand greatly upscales (is this the right term?) from Ifrit at 1 Exaton (more or less, SOLDIER Trainees can control and defeat Ifrit without much hassle, 3rd Class SOLDIER are fully trained ones far stronger than the trainess and Cloud in the very early game could casually beat entire squads of 3rd Classes as mere mooks with just a couple of hits), but that doesn't give a clear number I guess.

Sorry for the walls of text BTW.
 
It's good dw

Tbh I think Ken is going to be taking this seriously from the get go, if he can't precog or gleam info from Cloud's aura he'll probably take that as a sign that his foe is super powerful lol.

Skill wise I'm pretty sure Ken blows Cloud out the water here, never mind the life long practise of his martial arts but iirc Ken can copy and perfectly use the arts of his slain comrades who themselves have their own skill feats
 
I'd say Cloud should have experience against martial artists, but I don't think he's fought Tifa.

I think it's skill and experience that gives Ken the edge here, where he should probably trump Cloud in hand-to-hand combat at least in that aspect. I agree, Cloud has a shot here, but I do think I see outcomes where Ken is capable of snagging a victory by just striking where it's right, that and Ken's a man of opportunity when it arises, him aiming to end fights as quickly as possible, especially when he has the edge.

Albeit with high difficulty, I've already voted Ken, but Cloud isn't helpless, however Ken should have the skill, experience, technique, and AP to at least land a finishing strike that of which he usually does.
 
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It's good dw

Tbh I think Ken is going to be taking this seriously from the get go, if he can't precog or gleam info from Cloud's aura he'll probably take that as a sign that his foe is super powerful lol.
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Pretty much. Ken never took chances from what I recall (sorry, only watched the HnK anime long ago... good stuff, man), and even against opponents he was merciful towards he still had many ways to disable and defeat them even without killing them. Being unable to analyze the opponent would just change the "hmm, he's strong, better not take any risks" to "hmm, I can't read him, better not take any risks".

Skill wise I'm pretty sure Ken blows Cloud out the water here, never mind the life long practise of his martial arts but iirc Ken can copy and perfectly use the arts of his slain comrades who themselves have their own skill feats.
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That's unquestionable, to be honest. Even without factoring the skill and technique added up from his fallen comrades, Ken is on another league thanks to his extensive training and years of combat, compared to Cloud's much more limited experience and the fact he's self-taught, basing himself only on his natural talent to work around.

I'd say Cloud should have experience against martial artists, but I don't think he's fought Tifa.
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Somewhat, he's fought and beaten the Turks who include two martial arts experts in the form of Reno and Rude, as well as Yuffie a professional ninja, but none of them are on the level of someone like Ken. In Advent Children he also defeated Loz who easily beat Tifa, but that doesn't count for Cloud's key for this fight (my bad for referencing Advent Children before)

I think it's skill and experience that gives Ken the edge here, where he should probably trump Cloud in hand-to-hand combat at least in that aspect. I agree, Cloud has a shot here, but I do think I see outcomes where Ken is capable of snagging a victory by just striking where it's right, that and Ken's a man of opportunity when it arises, him aiming to end fights as quickly as possible, especially when he has the edge.

Albeit with high difficulty, I've already voted Ken, but Cloud isn't helpless, however Ken should have the skill, experience, technique, and AP to at least land a finishing strike that of which he usually does.
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To be fair, I fully agree on this as well, not so much that Ken can pull a win as much as Ken would pretty much win hands down if this ends up as a close range fight.

I did mention Cloud had a close range option with the Status Effect Elemental Blade combo, but thinking more about it that's not really viable against Ken. Unlike, Ken who just needs a touch, Cloud needs to inflict damage even if a little, it does if it's blocked but it's not so likely happen as Kenshiro would more likely parry, dodge or catch the Buster Sword, to which at least Cloud can pull free from.

There is one caveat: Can experience and skill fully prepare you for something you've never seen before? While Cloud's swordplay is something Ken can easily work around and his Limit Breaks being similar to ki based martial arts Ken already has beaten (he also should be able to null Cloud's Blade Beam and Meteorain as those are essentially chi constructs), but literal magic and fantasy monsters would come to Ken as "supernatural nonsense from geeky media that Bat for some reason likes that the nuclear war made sure to get rid off" does seem something Ken would be genuinely caught off guard by given how different it would be from the enemies he has fought in his career.

The point I am trying to get to is that Cloud does have enough skill, reflexes and senses of his own to avoid being taken out with the opening move and can realize what's he's up against and try to take measures for it. There's one thing to take into account: Cloud is a surprisingly intelligent fighter, despite his comparatively lower skill (and certainly he's nowhere near the battle genius Kenshiro is), but he does have a good grasp of combat and how to efficiently approach different situations. In the very first boss fight of FFVII he warns Barret that he should not attack enemies carelessly (the infamous "attack while the tail is up" meme, but it was actually a mistranslation, the original line was more like "if you attack..."), and in the game's tutorials, which Cloud himself gives to rookie fighters, he explains it's a good idea to evaluate the enemy, look for weaknesses, be aware of "sneaky" moves, don't overestimate yourself and even use the Sense/Assess Materia to get info (which reveals basic parameters, weaknessess, resistances, strengths and even useful tactics).

What I am trying to get at is that, I do think that Cloud would realize how horribly outmatched he is against Ken in a close range fight and will try to play it safe with ranged abilites, such as Magic, Enemy Skills or Summons. Cloud does suffer a bit from RPG non-canon tactics syndrome, in that we don't have a clear example of it (but to be fair his only display of fighting on his own in canon was Advent Children and in that movie he had all his Materia stolen by the bad guys when he went to pick it up to use them againt the villains to begin with), but sorry I digress.

If things can go to distance things are more favorable towards Cloud, by that point of the game he does have a lot of ranged options, many spells track the opponent location to take effect or have rather unconventional shape (for example, Frog Song is a sound that turns people into Toads and puts them to sleep, though Ken resists the latter), quite a few of his haxes do work on Ken (Time, Death, Transmutation, Absolute Zero, Gravity, Dimensional BFR to the Void), and he can also turn them into AoE or multi-targetting thanks to the All Materia. Not to mention, Cloud could also resort to Haste and Slow to create a speed difference with Ken (double his own speed, halve his opponents. Though I don't know if this is applicable with equalized speed).

Now, I am aware that Ken has many powerful long range techniques as well, such as Tenha Kassatsu, Hokuto Gōshō Ha or Tenshō Honretsu, as well as duplicating himself to give chase and bombard Cloud. However, please correct me if I am wrong here, lethal as those moves may be they are more straightforward Ki moves, something Cloud actually could try to dodge (if there is one thing Cloud has practice at is dodging crap shot at him, most of the Midgar section of VII has Cloud and his team being shot by machine guns, lasers, missiles from many enemies at once and every angle anytime they went into a Shinra Facility) and maybe the Reflect spell does work here, while in theory it reflects magic, in practice it bounces back any attack considered non-physical that doesn't explicitly bypasses barriers, energy moves are actually included. Tenha Kassatsu is the one I am ambivalent on, as it's pretty ambiguous depending on the media of what shape it takes or if it's invisible or how much range it has. I know Ken duplicating himself is also possible, but as I mentioned, Cloud does have ways to make his spells and different moves that can target all the Kens present.

Another Materia that really helps Cloud here is Long Range, which allows his physical attacks to reach several meters from where he is physically located. This essentially helps further to avoid getting close to Ken. Though I don't think it would get a surprise hit on Ken. If Ken saw Cloud faraway swinging at the air, he'd realize something must be coming and prepare to defend anyways.

I know it looks like I am hyping too much Cloud's magic, and to be fair I kind of am, but I thinks it's more fun to try to go through all the possibilities before declaring the winner instead of simply looking for the quickest one-hit kill.
 
Yup! It's always fun thinking of several scenarios where either combatant could at least likely squeeze out a possible win.

It's like thinking about an opponent vs a rage power opponent.

Think of the former being declared the winner, but if the latter got angry which adds to their power, then there'd be another possibility in mind, and that's fun to think about.

Grace hasn't started yet iirc, or it has and there's overtime going on right now, so if you've reached a final verdict, you're free to lay it down on us, unless there is more you'd like to add.
 
I didn’t know votes could be invalid after time, I just wanted to hold off on adding this so someone could argue for Cloud, and that happened.
 
Gohan?_You're_still_alive? said:
I cannot tell if it was debunked or not- xD
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Well, a part of it was argued against.

Most of the votes came for Stillwinston's argument that Kenshiro won via his Precognition, Pressure Points, Musou Tensei, Soryu Tenra and overwhelming skill advantage.

Of that, it was mentioned that Cloud's Acausality and his resistance to Dimensional BFR due to Lifestream shaeningans could protect him from Precognition and Soryu Tenra. Stillwinston himself later mentioned that Musou Tensei isn't permanently active and rather is triggered by near death, giving Cloud a further margin of action as Kenshiro's NEP wouldn't be active all the time. That leaves Pressure Points, Skill Advantage and Musou Tensei to an extent.

The way I see it advantages for both would be:

  • Stronger in terms on AP. Though not dramatically so due to Cloud's long scaling chain from Ifrit.
  • Overhwelmingly more skilled in close-combat, also far more experienced. Dominating the fight if it gets to this. Also meaning that Cloud's Added Effect sword can be reliably avoided. This becomes even more prevalent if Ken starts to use the experience and technique of his fallen comrades in the battle.
  • Due to Pressure Points, a single touch most likely means his victory unless due to bad luck he goes for an effect that Cloud can resist like Paralysis or Sleep. Though chances aren't that high for the latter as Hokuto Shinken is 30% utility moves, 20% healing moves, 450% gory murder.
  • If Musou Tensei activates, Ken literally can't lose the fight anymore. Cloud can stall maybe, but would be unable to reach Ken in any way.
  • Can nullify Ki attacks so Cloud's ranged Limit Breaks, with the exception of Finishing Touch, are useless.
  • Instinctive Reaction means that even if Cloud avoids the first exchanges, Ken will quickly adapt and catch Cloud.
  • His battle smarts mean he can easily figure out Cloud's fighting style when it comes to swordplay and Limit Breaks (as they resemble martial arts and Ki moves Ken has seen many times before)
  • His Ki clones can turn a lopside close range fight into a massacre.
  • Far superior stamina mean that if Cloud doesn't manage to win quickly (or is defeated quickly), Ken will outlast him, catch him and "you're already dead"d him.
  • Due to the lethality of his moveset Cloud won't be taking damage so he won't be building his Limit Breaks, as a single strike would mean the end. Even then, their effects are mostly moot as the power increase isn't enough to fully trouble Ken and Blade Beam and Meteorain can be nullified. The sole exception being Finishing Touch, a large AoE tornado that causes Instant Death.
  • Hunkier


  • Does resist a few of Ken's Pressure Point effects, such as Paralysis, Sleep, Power Nullification (of himself, not his attacks) and madness to an extent. The Ribbon also protects him from Ken's fear Aura. Reflect may also protect him from Ken's ranged techniques.
  • Resists Ken's Precognition and the Soryu Tenra, at least avoiding two of the three worst possible abilities, though Musou Tensei remains and royally screws him over.
  • Has more and more varied long ranged options. Many of his spells can track and take effect on the enemy's location, multi-target or become large AoEs.
  • Several of Cloud's haxes do work and can give him a win: Death Manipulation, Time Stop, Transmutation (which vastly reduces all stats and prevents the use of any abilities), BFR, Absolute Zero, Matter Manipulation.
  • Has his own touch of death in the form of the Added Effect + Status Materia combo, which if it deals any damage (even from a blocked attack) can instantly inflict conditions like Instant Death, Time Stop or Transmutation. If using Elemental + Shiva, all his attacks strike with Absolute Zero cold. This is downplayed as Ken's far superior skill and experience can make it to land such hit in the first place.
  • Is pretty friggin good at dodging and blocking ranged attacks himself.
  • Sense/Assess can give him a detailed info on Ken and his abilities, warning him that Hokuto Shinken will pop him with a touch and reveal that Ken doesn't resist a good deal of Cloud's own abilities.
  • Is smart enough to know when to fight close and when to keep distance and to take advantage of his magic, ailements and elements, as adopting different strategies for different enemies is something Cloud himself encourages in the game. Added to this, his skill, senses and reflexes are actually good enough to not get killed with the opening move.
  • Higher Lifting Strength means he can escape if Ken catches the Buster Sword, but this is offset if Ken simply parries, deflects or dodges, which are very likely outcomes.
  • Has a genuine surprise factor against Ken in the form of Magic, Enemy Skills and Summons, something that Ken despite his experience likely has never seen before in his career and would be caught off guard by. On the other hand, while nothing in the setting of FFVII is as refined as the Hokuto Shinken, "Touch of Death" abilities are actually commonplace among monsters and is something Cloud is aware and warns rookies to always watch out for (describing them as "sneaky attacks"), which are abilities that can instantly put you to sleep, kill you, poison you, make you go insane, turn you to stone, etc.

I personally am not going to. I mostly wanted to help out a bit given I know the character and all that (and am very biased towards Final Fantasy in general), and well got caught into the analysis having too much fun with it =P

I'll let you guys decide.
 
So they can both royally screw each other over with hax, I think it really depends on how Cloud fights in character here. Need to know that before voting
 
All I can really add at this point now is Kenshiro usually closes the distance between him and his opponent in character to land his usual in.

How would Cloud fight in character here?
 
Cloud afaik has the "I'm an RPG protag so I have no real opening move." kinda deal in this key but don't quote me on it.

Edit: iirc if Ken is Ko'd his spirit can come out and still fight, dunno if that would if he's petrified or transmutated or if it's in this key but I think it did happen at some point
 
Counted the vote, and I'll go ahead and add this and get someone to close the thread.

This was honestly a fun thread to do, and I'm glad it's fair now.
 
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