Common Calculation Concerns: Skull Crushing and FTE Movement

[Wokistan]

I finally got off my ass to make this thing I'd had in the back of my mind for months. TLDR, skull crushing isn't 9-B and FTE isn't (necessarily) subsonic.

Skull Crushing

The old Xcano calc is bad, and Xcano himself disavowed it. The problem with it is that it treats the skull as just a cube made of bone, and uses the shear force needed to squish that. Skulls are obviously not just cubes of bone, and this distinction is of importance because it's actually a far smaller cross section that has to fail for the skull to be flattened. I was looking for a better way to calc skull crushing for a while now, never ended up really coming to one, oh well. For more empirical proof that skull crushing cannot be anywhere near the alleged 100k joules, let's look at Elephants.

Elephants can crush skulls. This was an old execution method and has a lot of depiction within art and such. Let's go out and highball here. According to wikipedia, the largest elephant ever recorded was estimated to be 10,400kg. Head width is usually around 6-7 inches, we shall use 7. Finally, we'll be dividing by four, because an elephant has three other limbs to distribute its weight on and isn't likely to just be standing one legged when crushing a head as part of an execution.

PE=mass in kilograms*gravitational acceleration*height in meters
PE=10400*9.8*0.1778
PE=18121.376J

So, nowhere near 100,000 joules, but at least it's still 9-B, right? Wrong. We didn't divide by 4.

18121.376/4=4530.344J

So this is 9-C, and not even 9-C+. Now consider that this is with the biggest elephant ever recorded. When I tested this out initially with more normal elephant sizes, I was getting results more around the 1500-2500J range. Let's also consider that this isn't exactly something an elephant struggles to do.

It should be clear at this point that crushing a human skull is not a 9-B feat.

My suggested remedy is to rank people who have this feat at a vaguely superhuman level. This would cause it to default to 9-C. I would suggest allowing free editing of any profile using this as their only 9-B justification as well as those who scale to them, letting 9-C be applied without a CRT. We have too many files scaled off this feat for me to know them all, after all.

FTE Feats

Flap your hand in front of your face. If you do it real fast you'll have pretty much no visual obstruction. So that means your hand is subsonic, right? Wrong.

Here is some gunfire from anti aircraft guns. These are some fast bullets. Can't find info on the specific Taiwanese AA gun in the video, but the M61 Vulcan which uses the same cartridge and is similarly intended for use against airborne targets has a muzzle velocity of around 1050m/s, which is a little less than triple the speed of sound.

So this puts us in a conundrum. How is a slower thing FTE when a faster thing isn't? The answer is simple: Visibility involves way more factors than simple speed. Distance, size, luminosity, orientation, etc, they all will throw off whether or not you can see them.

As such, we should really stop using "moved too fast to get spotted" or "moved as a blur" for a default subsonic rating. It shouldn't default to anything at all because that's only one of a bajillion different variables. It's possible to make some calcs like these work on a case by case basis, but they need individual attention.

I'd propose downgrading anyone using this as their primary speed feat to whatever lower speed they had prior to the addition of this. If they had none, just stick them down at human level and make a CRT to find speed feats.

 

[InfiniteDay]

Too based for me.

 

[DMUA]

Yeah, I agree with this

Don't remember if any stuff I support uses stuff like this, but, yeah.

 

[Metalballrun]

Definitely agree with this.

 

[AKM sama]

This seems agreeable. I always had issue with how we treated FTE.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Always agreed with the FTE argument.

Also, wouldn't for the skull it would be dependant of how quick it is done?

Elephants do stomp rather quickly when they go for the kill, and crushing the head slowly was also used to torture the victims before their execution, so the head can definitely survive (even if it is extremely painful) some slow crushes

 

[Wokistan]

I mean, given they could train elephants to non fatally injure people and toss them with their trunks and stuff, I'd imagine for a slower crushing death they'd just train it to not lean onto that foot all at once and to instead ease on to it.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I mean, given they could train elephants to non fatally injure people and toss them with their trunks and stuff, I'd imagine for a slower crushing death they'd just train it to not lean onto that foot all at once and to instead ease on to it.

Sure, but I'm not sure we should use potential energy formula for it because the leg isn't free-falling.

I would say that using pressure might be more accurate for energy (since Elephants can crush the skull by doing exactly that), and find the pressure required to crush the skull

From what you said it seems the problem was that it miscalculated the cross sectional area, so that would need to be fixed

 

[KLOL506]

Yeah, we shouldn't use potential energy for this. Pressure would be a considerably more accurate approach here. Skulls fail at 520 lbs according to this article.

 

[DMUA]

Fragmenting was only 56,000 or so

Still that's a bit more than the output of a sledgehammer, which can smash skulls in its own right, along with an elephant's step like what's displayed here

 

[KLOL506]

Fragmenting was only 56,000 or so

Still that's a bit more than the output of a sledgehammer, which can smash skulls in its own right, along with an elephant's step like what's displayed here

Fragmenting was 36 kJ, not 56.

Also the sledgehammer was downgraded due to no human being able to swing it hard enough to generate 15K joules. But that's besides the point.

 

[KLOL506]

This article (And also this article) tells me that 1100 lbs is needed to merely fracture the skull tho, not sure what to take at face value here.

 

[Tllmbrg]

I agree with the CRT

 

[DMUA]

Also the sledgehammer was downgraded due to no human being able to swing it hard enough to generate 15K joules. But that's besides the point.

That is actually exactly in line with my point, a sledgehammer in the hands of even an average person is enough to shatter skulls with a good enough strike.

 

[KLOL506]

Found another link where it says 2100 lbs at max

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Executor_N0 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Mr._Bambu @Therefir @Ugarik @Damage3245 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Jasonsith @Wokistan @Armorchompy @KieranH10 @Migue79

What do you think about this?

 

[KLOL506]

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Executor_N0 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Mr._Bambu @Therefir @Ugarik @Damage3245 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Jasonsith @Wokistan @Armorchompy @KieranH10 @Migue79

What do you think about this?

Uh, Ant, Wokistan is the one who made this thread.

 

[Damage3245]

So this puts us in a conundrum. How is a slower thing FTE when a faster thing isn't? The answer is simple: Visibility involves way more factors than simple speed. Distance, size, luminosity, orientation, etc, they all will throw off whether or not you can see them.

This is reasonable. FTE feats need a re-evaluation in general.

 

[KLOL506]

Either way, the OP makes sense. For the skull part, we'll have to figure out a way to convert the pressure value to joules once we figure out the impact area of the skull, though there are multiple lb values to contend with, plus apparently not all skulls are the same so this wouldn't apply to skulls that aren't made of bone but are instead made of metal or somesuch. Maybe Spino or DT can help with that.

 

[Armorchompy]

op seems right to me

 

[Psychomaster35]

I agree with this

It would be best to calculate the speed they actually move at when they are screen rather than assuming Subsonic based on just a blur.

 

[KieranH10]

I can agree with this.

FTE feats can generally be calculated easily anyways, if someone is shown as a blur they're obviously on-screen moving, calculating speed based on that isn't difficult.

I do know that if a blur is shown to be directional (Character A is a blur from Point A to Point B), then we can easily assume that said character is moving that distance in almost exactly a frame, so that could be helpful I guess.

Since the eye has no "framerate" per-se (Yeah there's estimations and stuff of what a 'framerate for the eye' would be, but this isn't really how eyes work iirc), I don't think it would be applicable to use any framerate sorta thing for human perception.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I'd propose downgrading anyone using this as their primary speed feat to whatever lower speed they had prior to the addition of this.

Or upgraded. Some feats are actually far higher than just subsonic because of the circumstances around it and we just defaut it to that (as an example, I recall a certain fight where the fighters looked literally invisible to people who were looking from a good distance away. Scenarios like that usually net huge results)

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Either way I agree.

 

[KLOL506]

Or upgraded. Some feats are actually far higher than just subsonic because of the circumstances around it and we just defaut it to that (as an example, I recall a certain fight where the fighters looked literally invisible to people who were looking from a good distance away. Scenarios like that usually net huge results)

Maybe just take the timeframes from the Reactions page depending upon human type? We've been doing that for a while now.

 

[Migue79]

I agree with these proposals.

 

[KingTempest]

Regarding the OP.

Is there a method of calculating FTE movement and accounting for distance between the characters?

 

[Metalballrun]

Maybe just take the timeframes from the Reactions page depending upon human type? We've been doing that for a while now.

There's another problem with that.
I remember when it comes to calcs that relies on a character moving faster than someone can see, people either use the "jet pilot" which was 0.0013 seconds or something, I'm not sure what was the exact value. Or use the values from the reactions page. Normally the former is used so the reactions page kinda looks useless sometimes.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I in principle agree regarding FTE feats. However, I don't think as many people need to get downgraded as you make out.
If a human-sized or larger character can move so fast that its entire body can't be seen, isn't using notable camouflage and isn't doing so in an especially dark place, that character should still be at least subsonic. I believe that much is clear, considering that we can see people driving by on motorcycles no problem.

 

[Antvasima]

Uh, Ant, Wokistan is the one who made this thread.

Sorry. I forgot to remove him from the notification list.

 

[Jasonsith]

For skull crushing,

I agree that it needs to be downgraded, just to make sure we have different data for different methods in crushing a skull.

In fact this may tap into piercing strength which will open another can of worms but since we are ware now maybe we need to solve this too.

For FTE feats

Actually there are quite a few standards of "faster than eye", "moving like a blur to a normal human eye", "faster than a normal human can react", "faster than a normal human can perceive" and "faster than a well-trained pilot can perceive".

I have like different standards of different "FTE" feats.
Feel free to discuss while I go back to work at home and do household chores.

 

[Metalballrun]

I have like different standards of different "FTE" feats.

If subsonic feats are possible IRL then shouldn't the speed or reactions pages get updated, assuming all that are legit? Since it means that's the extent a human can get, in other words peak human. Or superhuman if they're considered outliers.

 

[Jasonsith]

If subsonic feats are possible IRL then shouldn't the speed or reactions pages get updated, assuming all that are legit? Since it means that's the extent a human can get, in other words peak human. Or superhuman if they're considered outliers.

Well humans can do different things at different speeds. We do not need to rescale our scale. In fact, peak human punching speed is already way faster than peak human running speed, and peak baseballer throwing speed and batting speed are even higher. We have IRL bullet slicing feats.





We should rather determine what FTE speed feats the characters are actually performing at particular scenes.

Or upgraded. Some feats are actually far higher than just subsonic because of the circumstances around it and we just defaut it to that (as an example, I recall a certain fight where the fighters looked literally invisible to people who were looking from a good distance away. Scenarios like that usually net huge results)

You just opened another topic: accuracy.

 

[AKM sama]

If a human-sized or larger character can move so fast that its entire body can't be seen, isn't using notable camouflage and isn't doing so in an especially dark place, that character should still be at least subsonic. I believe that much is clear, considering that we can see people driving by on motorcycles no problem.

Wouldn't distance also play a part in that?

 

[Jasonsith]

Wouldn't distance also play a part in that?

Sure.

Well moving a distance within a time frame definitely qualifies as a speed feat. Just... The context and specification of the feat and underlying settings often make it trickier than it seems.

In fact I am planning to try to make a new attribute: Accuracy. Summary: measured by locating a spot of details within a certain area or volume.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Wouldn't distance also play a part in that?

In principle yes. The further away, if still large enough to be easily visible, the easier it is probably to see.
That said, I think we can see people driving motorcycles from basically as close up as we want, so it should be at least subsonic regardless.

 

[Metalballrun]

Well humans can do different things at different speeds. We do not need to rescale our scale. In fact, peak human punching speed is already way faster than peak human running speed, and peak baseballer throwing speed and batting speed are even higher. We have IRL bullet slicing feats.

I'm aware. My concern is just often seeing people garner misconceptions based on the speed levels. If I'm not mistaken, the "human" ratings are mostly based on movement, so maybe make a note of that?

Though idk, the other concerns in this thread are more pressing and are the ones that need attention.

 

[Arceus0x]

So here's a kinda related question. Let's there's a boxing match. It's viewed from tens of meters away. Luminosity is high.

The punches of the boxers (in the example that I'm using) are moving so fast nobody can seen them at all, even experienced boxers.

Would it be possible to even estimate something like this?

 

[KingTempest]

So here's a kinda related question. Let's there's a boxing match. It's viewed from tens of meters away. Luminosity is high.

The punches of the boxers (in the example that I'm using) are moving so fast nobody can seen them at all, even experienced boxers.

Would it be possible to even estimate something like this?

This fits in with my question

Regarding the OP.

Is there a method of calculating FTE movement and accounting for distance between the characters?

 

[Antvasima]

I in principle agree regarding FTE feats. However, I don't think as many people need to get downgraded as you make out.
If a human-sized or larger character can move so fast that its entire body can't be seen, isn't using notable camouflage and isn't doing so in an especially dark place, that character should still be at least subsonic. I believe that much is clear, considering that we can see people driving by on motorcycles no problem.

What do other calc group members think about this?