Cloud (Midgar) vs Guts (End of Golden age)

[ZephyrosOmega]

it’s not 8-A. Stop treating it like it is. It’s an unquantifiable increase, and if you want to prove otherwise, go make a CRT for it. It's called surface area.

 

[Chariot190]

If this becomes CQC cloud is over 3x as strong and has higher lifting strength as well as a far more maneuverable weapon and more versatility at close range, what with being able to cast spells with a massive aoe and even infuse them into his swings and body, so at that point he still just dominates with ease lol

Ok so we're just ignoring the fact that Guts has a blatant higher with his equipment here and are just gonna pretend he's not actually stronger with them and the profile is lying about that higher rating.
And massive AOE? With the basic starting spells? Since ******* when.

Depends on the game which is why it's considered malleable. Sometimes it spawns sometimes it's a projectile, even in the same game like FFBE.

Fire, Lightning, ice, and Wind basic spell. That's what he has here.

it’s not 8-A. Stop treating it like it is. It’s an unquantifiable increase, and if you want to prove otherwise, go make a CRT for it.

Probably will at this point. The arm cannon is blatantly 8-A.

Though that still doesn't change the fact an unquantifiable increase is still a huge ass increase in context and Cloud being 3x a dude with a blatant and demonstrable increase in raw power to the point of explicit one shots on foes stronger than himself, isn't actually Cloud being 3x stronger anymore.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Ok so we're just ignoring the fact that Guts has a blatant higher with his equipment here and are just gonna pretend he's not actually stronger with them and the profile is lying about that higher rating.

Yeah actually, because the "higher" rating is based off of the durability of a weapon in question rather than it magically increasing guts' strength. This is literally a "ryuko is 6-A at the beginning of the series because she uses the scissor blade" tier argument

And massive AOE? With the basic starting spells? Since ******* when.

All materia

Fire, Lightning, ice, and Wind basic spell. That's what he has here.

Wind

Oh we're using the remake here? In that case Cloud stomps even harder via afterimage creation that works on faster foes like Sephiroth, way better feats of acrobatics, skill, and mobility, status effects, and summons.

You claim you're such an expert and yet you're considering spells cloud doesn't even have in the original

Probably will at this point. The arm cannon is blatantly 8-A.

Though that still doesn't change the fact an unquantifiable increase is still a huge ass increase in context and Cloud being 3x a dude with a blatant and demonstrable increase in raw power to the point of explicit one shots on foes stronger than himself, isn't actually Cloud being 3x stronger anymore.

You're gonna keep moving the goalpost cause you really can't handle the AP gap huh

 

[HST_Master]

Fire, Lightning, ice, and Wind basic spell. That's what he has here.

I never asked which spells he had, I said it's activation depends from game to game and in some cases like FFBE, FF Type-0, and World of FF, will have different forms of use in the same game (Fire spawning on someone and being a projectile in the same game.)

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Uh yeah, the guts arguments are bad.

Cloud fra

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

aaaaaaand that's grace

 

[ShivaShakti]

End of Golden Age Guts

Bruh

 

[Chariot190]

Yeah actually, because the "higher" rating is based off of the durability of a weapon in question rather than it magically increasing guts' strength. This is literally a "ryuko is 6-A at the beginning of the series because she uses the scissor blade" tier argument

That is literally not what I'm saying, could you misrepresent the argument any further?

You're gonna keep moving the goalpost cause you really can't handle the AP gap huh

No, mostly just because apparently the "higher" denoting that, who would have guessed, his AP is ******* higher with the DS and armcannon, doesn't seem to have gotten across.

Oh we're using the remake here? In that case Cloud stomps even harder via afterimage creation that works on faster foes like Sephiroth, way better feats of acrobatics, skill, and mobility, status effects, and summons.

You claim you're such an expert and yet you're considering spells cloud doesn't even have in the original

My bad, I thought he had wind in the original, don't need to be such a sassy **** about it.

I never claimed I was an expert, but i did claim that I at least played them and know when someone is making shit up.

I never asked which spells he had, I said it's activation depends from game to game and in some cases like FFBE, FF Type-0, and World of FF, will have different forms of use in the same game (Fire spawning on someone and being a projectile in the same game.)

I know you didn't ask, I did. How is the spells that Cloud have in this match portrayed, is what I was asking. Though if it's so all over the place, why the hell aren't we just using them as they appear in the game the key is from, but even then, do you mind pointing out when Cloud has used the above spells with just a thought and nothing else?

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

So I saw it's grace, but Cloud storms in FRA

 

[The_Impress]

Oh, my bad, turns out you're just a ****.

Though due to your inability to read...

Is debating without being toxic as shit hard or something, btw? This is RVR level stuff.

 

[Chariot190]

Is debating without being toxic as shit hard or something, btw? This is RVR level stuff.

Why the **** are you replying to me? I'm not the one who started it.
I'll call a spade a spade just like I'll call a **** a ****, is that not fair? Things definitely could have been civil but that's clearly asking to much.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Yo, chill this is just a random ass match in a random ass internet site no need to be like that

 

[The_Impress]

Why the **** are you replying to me? I'm not the one who started it.

...because I'm staff, it's my job? Hello?

Also you're clearly the worst offender in this scenario

I'll call a spade a spade just like I'll call a ** a **, is that not fair?

Don't know dude, sounds like a **** move owo

Things definitely could have been civil but that's clearly asking to much.

You're contributing much to this aren'tcha?

I'm locking this thread and reporting you to the RVR, have fun debating your ban there.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

that's not really what i meant in terms of "they can just dodge". What i'm trying to say is that guts' hand cannon is a one-off projectile, and should be a lot easier to dodge considering cloud's dodged multiple streams of projectiles before. But Cloud's magic just outright spawns on foes, so you can't really avoid that.

Though, this is the midgar key, so Cloud's only magic is gonna be Fire, Ice, Lightning, and Healing. Which, again considering they spawn directly on enemies and Cloud is well over three times as strong at this point...

Oh, I wasn't even referring to the cannon. They start at two meters, both of their swords are massive, there's no reason to think they aren't just ******* flailing those things all around. The cannon isn't really a major part of the argument, I feel, when starting at that range. I do have a question, how long does it take Cloud to cast a spell? Like is it thought activated, vocally, gesture, etc? At a range of 2 meters I feel weird saying "Cloud will do this immediately" but still, if that is the case, I'd like to know how quickly he can do it.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

...because I'm staff, it's my job? Hello?

Also you're clearly the worst offender in this scenario

Don't know dude, sounds like a **** move owo

You're contributing much to this aren'tcha?

I'm locking this thread and reporting you to the RVR, have fun debating your ban there.

I'm not sure I agree, like I get what you're saying but the meme was a wee bit outta hand. Chariot made bad points, the opposition took the opportunity to confront it in an offstandish way, even if the former wasn't a good take the latter probably wasn't the best solution. Chariot getting pissy over it is understandable.

 

[CuddleFox]

Bruh, I missed the whole thing because I went to sleep.

I'm like 99% sure they don't LITERALLY spawn on them

They do, it's symbolised by the fact you can't dodge a magic in FF7. But in the original game Midgar key is from, Cloud move each time he's doing magic.
Anyway, it's grace now, I'm disgusted xD
I was honestly expecting it to be an inconclusive match.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

In terms of spawning literally on top of the opponent, Remake literally shows spells like Blizzard, Thunder ans Aero spawing on top of the opponent. The only one that is launched like a normal projectile is Fire.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Oh, I wasn't even referring to the cannon. They start at two meters, both of their swords are massive, there's no reason to think they aren't just ******* flailing those things all around. The cannon isn't really a major part of the argument, I feel, when starting at that range. I do have a question, how long does it take Cloud to cast a spell? Like is it thought activated, vocally, gesture, etc? At a range of 2 meters I feel weird saying "Cloud will do this immediately" but still, if that is the case, I'd like to know how quickly he can do it.

For spells, due to this being early game, it would only take him around a couple seconds to cast at worst and probably immediately at best as these spells are only the first stage versions and thus don't really require charge time unlike 2nd or 3rd stages.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I see. Isn't it likely, then, that Guts would engage melee combat, leaving Cloud little choice but to fight back, rather than try to focus, even if for a moment or two, on magic? Like I said, I'm not hyper familiar with the verse nor am I familiar with Berserk, but as far as I'm aware Cloud's in-character immediate move is hardly "SPAM MAGIC" nor is his magic instant-kill tier by this stage- even the matter manip just lights Guts on fire, not outright kill him.

I don't like the dogpile-like votes that occurred for this thread.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

That’s 5-1 in clouds favor if my count is correct, 6 if Bambu was voting cloud

I was not, for the record, no. I stand by the belief that Cloud isn't guaranteed or even necessarily likely to open up out the gate with spells, and his win condition largely relies on this belief.

 

[CuddleFox]

Just remembered that in FF7, Cloud can't cast spells if he's silenced. Which means it's not thought-based.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I mean, I don't think they were presenting it as such before. Unless I missed something in the wave of rather rushed votes up above.

Either way this doesn't sit right with me. My vote to Incon. I don't dig the Cloud magic theory being passed around at the moment but at the same time I don't find it likely Guts gets a significant advantage in even considering Dragonslayer is potentially equal to if not greater than Cloud's AP.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

While Guts would force Cloud into close range, Cloud's fighting style is extremely mobile along with the fact that it revolves around mixing both swordplay and magic. And if Remake is anything to show, he's very capable of fighting people one on one and stilk mixing both swordplay and magic. This includes when going against multiple foes as well such as dealing with not only gunmen, but also their super enhanced dogs. So magic is by no means something Cloud can't use, especially as it only requires one hand and Cloud's fighting style involves switching between one handed attacks and two handed attacks.

Also widening the distance really wouldn't be too hard for Cloud considering his overall fighting style revolves around being super mobile. Here is how fast his spells can come out.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Ehhh I dunno if in-game combat is a good showing, unless you're referring to cutscenes or something in which case, fair enough, though my previous point does stand that the magic isn't ostensibly an instant-kill or anything. In-game combat is largely just waiting around for enemies to attack and for you to attack, even if they made it more dynamic in the remake.

As for the whole "Cloud is mobile" argument... yeah, but as far as I'm aware, Guts is fully capable of also being mobile, so, eh. My vote for incon remains.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

While it isn't an instant kill, I believe it gives Cloud a much more versatile way of attacking here. I am also pretty positive he should have Cure as well, meaning he has the ability to basically heal any wounds he received which Guts iirc cannot really do giving Cloud another advantage.

Also, gameplay is just me showing how fast spells come out overall. Kinda hard to find cutscenes of Cloud fighting alone considering well...JRPG.

Regardless, I believe his access to magic, including Healing gives him the edge here in this fight, hence why I wilk vote Cloud for this one.

 

[Chariot190]

They start at 2 meters distance.

Cloud isn't gonna try and use magic when he's forced into a sword duel with that he doesn't have an option in. he has to sword duel, if he doesn't he's getting sliced, and the magic most certainly isn't instant, even the basic versions, assuming we're using how they appear in game of the original FF7, still take nearly two seconds to cast. That's two seconds he has to divert his attention to something else, two seconds he has to try and cast a spell while someone is swinging a hunk of steel at him. That is how fast they are used in the original FF7, whether that be fire, ice, etc. Even with one hand, two seconds with a obvious casting warning should be enough to tip Guts off.

You can't honestly tell me, Cloud, someone who's bnb is sword fighting, something he tends to opt to do even at a distance and willing tries to enter cqc, is instead going to opt for magic, while he's already in sword range.
That simply isn't how he canonically fights. And he doesn't have the luxury of that here, unless he manages to increase the distance but why would Cloud do that in character? Over dueling? And why would Guts not chase him down?


Well it doesn't matter, I was planning some Berserk CRT's in the future anyway and thought this thread would be good fun, but I guess I'm pushing it forward a bit, there's definitely a few good feats to calc like Zodd fast balling a heavy horse killer like at least a km or two while in human form, would be a nice LS feat. Or Wyald tossing a man like 100m, or Wyald uprooting trees (since talk of that being like Class K lately). Plus the leaping feats.

Anyway I thought this was closed?

 

[CuddleFox]

Yeah, I thought so too.
Doesn't the previous votes count anymore? I'm kinda lost.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I can close it if you want.

 

[Chariot190]

I can close it if you want.

At this point it doesn't matter, I'm apparently getting crucified unfortunately.
I was just confused is all.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Weather formation beats internal organs fra

 

[Mr. Bambu]

While it isn't an instant kill, I believe it gives Cloud a much more versatile way of attacking here. I am also pretty positive he should have Cure as well, meaning he has the ability to basically heal any wounds he received which Guts iirc cannot really do giving Cloud another advantage.

Also, gameplay is just me showing how fast spells come out overall. Kinda hard to find cutscenes of Cloud fighting alone considering well...JRPG.

Regardless, I believe his access to magic, including Healing gives him the edge here in this fight, hence why I wilk vote Cloud for this one.

Sure, but said magic still has the same issues mentioned previously. Unlike in the game, Cloud will be getting attacked theoretically as he uses cure. I dunno if its really an advantage at all given he has to stop attacking to do it.

Sure, sure. So we're left with a couple seconds as the general timeframe.

You can do so, I just dislike the FRAs that sort of just piled on during the crisis occurring earlier, especially since nobody really seemed to take the starting range into account early on. Like many of the votes seem to just assume magic insta-kills Guts and is works instantly, too, since Guts somehow isn't doing anything while Cloud is fighting. Just some weird ass stuff going on here.

 

[AngeronTheSkyHighAnger]

I hate this thread, it reminds me of the times when Geralt has no explanation towards his fighting styles and people just said "axii GG" which lead to the biggest stomp streak this wiki has ever seen (30+)

While it is obvious which character wins in this case due to the obvious grace i need to say that the debate could've just boiled down to this:

"Has character A an advantage over character B?"
"How useful is that advantage?"

This applies to both Guts and Cloud and honestly Cloud has better odds of winning than Guts because funnily enough as the meme that ZephyrosOmega made it just shows how much effort Guts has to do to have an advantage over Cloud

 

[CuddleFox]

So, is this match concluded? Can it be added?