Cloud (Midgar) vs Guts (End of Golden age)

[CuddleFox]

Cloud (Midgar) vs Guts (End of Golden age)
Speed Equalized.

Guts
-Scales to Wyald, who scales to 182 400 000 J
-Has his Dragon Slayer and his Hand Cannon, which make him stomp enemies he is normally even with and allow him to attack at long range.

Cloud
-Scales to 645 627 859 J. (Go take a look at the comment section)
-Has his magic
-Is limit break restricted.

They start at 2 meters distance.

Let's make those ridiculously big swords clash.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Cloud has an over 3x AP advantage, can easily dodge, and has much more effective long-range methods with his magic as well as healing. VOting cloud quite decisively.

 

[CuddleFox]

Over 3x AP advantage is debatable because of Guts' Dragon Slayer.
Speed is equalized, so if Cloud can easily dodge, so can Guts.
Ok for healing, but fight start at 2 meters distance. ^^

 

[Chariot190]

That's a good point, Guts casually one shots characters he was comparable to but losing to before hand but one shot and completely bisected with his very first swing of the Slayer.
The Dragon Slayer definitely bridged a 3x difference.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Over 3x AP advantage is debatable because of Guts' Dragon Slayer.

Except that only applies to the dragon slayer and hand cannon, whereas cloud's advantage holds to all of his attacks, including his magic. I also need to note that Cloud scales significantly above the Airbuster due to that being an extremely early-midgar foe.

Speed is equalized, so if Cloud can easily dodge, so can Guts.

Except the hand cannon is a single projectile whereas cloud has a variety of different spells that spawn directly onto Guts.

Ok for healing, but fight start at 2 meters distance.

In which case cloud has showcased vastly superior maneuverability and agility, and has a much higher lifting strength to overpower Guts in a sword clash.

 

[Chariot190]

Except that only applies to the dragon slayer and hand cannon, whereas cloud's advantage holds to all of his attacks, including his magic.

You do realize that's all of Guts attacks in this key? Well besides his peashooter.

and has a much higher lifting strength to overpower Guts in a sword clash.

That isn't actually how that works, LS only applies if they find themselves in a bind while normal clashes is more force and AP based. And given the characters at play, I doubt they'd bind at all, that's something you don't wanna do in a sword fight, and in Guts' case, that's actually not a good idea as that's actually a situation Guts would use a pointblank cannon blast as a surprise attack.

 

[CuddleFox]

I also need to note that Cloud scales significantly above the Airbuster due to that being an extremely early-midgar foe.

Consider Cloud being a early midgar version of himself then. Since it's the only calc we have for Midgar Cloud.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

You do realize that's all of Guts attacks in this key? Well besides his peashooter.

Doesn't affect his durability, though, and as I've said, Cloud literally just spawns spells on people

That isn't actually how that works, LS only applies if they find themselves in a bind while normal clashes is more force and AP based.

And Cloud has a 3X AP advantage. Guts is "higher with the dragonslayer" because he can hurt foes with it that he can't normally, but that doesn't apply to Guts' own body, that only really matters if he gets a hit in on Cloud. If they clash swords, the buster sword has tier 5 durability and Cloud is still much physically stronger.

Consider Cloud being a early midgar version of himself then. Since it's the only calc we have for Midgar Cloud.

That's not how that works. You can't use a nerfed version of a single key just to move the goalpost for a victory. It being the "only calc" doesn't mean anything except Cloud upscaling from it a lot.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Only sparingly familiar with either verse (I played Final Fantasy X, I downloaded a Berserk mod for Darkest Dungeon one time) so forgive me if I miss somethin'.

I've never liked the argument "well they can just dodge" unless there's some special ability to do that. Guts, too, can just dodge attacks. They both have Acrobatics that suggest an equal capacity in this regard. That said, Cloud pretty undeniably has some AP advantage here, albeit not as high as it is based purely on the numbers. I'm unclear on how many of Cloud's abilities hail from Limit Breaks, so I'll just refer to Innate and Magic based abilities here.

Based solely on magic, it would seem Cloud has a fairly major advantage in terms of abilities- igniting enemies via matter manip is a fairly hard-to-dodge attack, and his other magic-oriented abilities are nothing to sniff at, albeit non-spammable afaik. With that said, Guts has this passive probability stuff. Can I get an idea on how perfect it is?

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Only sparingly familiar with either verse (I played Final Fantasy X, I downloaded a Berserk mod for Darkest Dungeon one time) so forgive me if I miss somethin'.

I've never liked the argument "well they can just dodge" unless there's some special ability to do that. Guts, too, can just dodge attacks. They both have Acrobatics that suggest an equal capacity in this regard. That said, Cloud pretty undeniably has some AP advantage here, albeit not as high as it is based purely on the numbers. I'm unclear on how many of Cloud's abilities hail from Limit Breaks, so I'll just refer to Innate and Magic based abilities here.

Based solely on magic, it would seem Cloud has a fairly major advantage in terms of abilities- igniting enemies via matter manip is a fairly hard-to-dodge attack, and his other magic-oriented abilities are nothing to sniff at, albeit non-spammable afaik. With that said, Guts has this passive probability stuff. Can I get an idea on how perfect it is?

that's not really what i meant in terms of "they can just dodge". What i'm trying to say is that guts' hand cannon is a one-off projectile, and should be a lot easier to dodge considering cloud's dodged multiple streams of projectiles before. But Cloud's magic just outright spawns on foes, so you can't really avoid that.

Though, this is the midgar key, so Cloud's only magic is gonna be Fire, Ice, Lightning, and Healing. Which, again considering they spawn directly on enemies and Cloud is well over three times as strong at this point...

 

[EliminatorVenom]

As far as I can remember, very not-perfect. Unless there is some new stuff in the new chapters which I haven't read yet, Guts passive probability stuff is about avoiding people manipulating his fate.

As for this match... Honestly, Cloud seems stronger and more durable, and he can get a not-too-difficult victory if he keeps spamming magic. His magic is much harder to avoid compared to Guts' projectiles, and while I bet he can dodge and avoid them very well, perhaps even block some attacks with Dragonslayer, and doubtlessly managing to close in after some time, he'd suffer some serious damage, while Cloud can, at least partially, parry and block his strikes better than Guts can. This should be a mid to easy victory for Cloud. I do think Guts is the much smarter and more skilled one out of the two, and he certainly can pull off a victory, specially if they are on a terrain favourable for Guts, but usually... I feel like Cloud should win more than not.

Also, just as a sidenote, but commenting on this:

[...] And given the characters at play, I doubt they'd bind at all, that's something you don't wanna do in a sword fight, and in Guts' case, that's actually not a good idea as that's actually a situation Guts would use a pointblank cannon blast as a surprise attack.

Not talking about those specific characters in those specific circumstances, but a bind in a sword fight can be very much desirable depending on your fighting style. Several masters that I studied in HEMA advocated for using binds, with systems such as La Verdadera Destreza advocating the use of the bind. I do agree that it is a bad idea doing that against Guts, as, y'know, cannon go boom, but just something 4fun.

 

[Chariot190]

Doesn't affect his durability, though, and as I've said, Cloud literally just spawns spells on people

Yeah, you realize they start off in like swing distance though right? Guts' blade is literally close to hitting him from OP distance. ANd honestly, I don't wanna be that dude but... I'm like 99% sure they don't LITERALLY spawn on them, with that just being hardware limitation given every time those spells are used in a normal 3d environment elsewhere, bar a handful, they don't literally spawn atop a foe, usually have a bit of range.

And Cloud has a 3X AP advantage. Guts is "higher with the dragonslayer" because he can hurt foes with it that he can't normally, but that doesn't apply to Guts' own body, that only really matters if he gets a hit in on Cloud. If they clash swords, the buster sword has tier 5 durability and Cloud is still much physically stronger.

We're using End of Golden Age Guts right? And the same goes to Cloud, Guts with the DS is a ludicrously **** ton of an amount higher, it's not just "hurt" foes he can't normally, it's quite literally kill them in one hit and splatter them, if Cloud gets hit by the DS, it's gonna be worse compared to Guts getting hit by a 3x disadvantage durability wise, given he's had that happened numerous times, that's part of his schtick actually.
And DS has at least 8-A, probably tier 7 durability if I'm going to be honest, what's your point? Guts can't break Cloud's sword and Cloud can't break Guts' sword, it's an blatant advantage they both have, to the point even bringing up tier 5 dura on the sword is a completely moot point.
No, if they clash swords, they simply clash because we're talking sword swings, not binds, binds are where LS is applied, actual swinging and dueling is AP, and we have Cloud with a advantage in AP sure, but he's also clashing with AP that's unironically probably higher than his if Guts has the Dragon Slayer, in which case, that's moreso an advantage for Guts, not Cloud, if they start sword dueling.

That's not how that works. You can't use a nerfed version of a single key just to move the goalpost for a victory. It being the "only calc" doesn't mean anything except Cloud upscaling from it a lot.

And the same thing applies to Guts with the calc he's scaling off, what's your point? They both upscale at that point in the story, it wouldn't actually change anything here.

 

[Chariot190]

Though, this is the midgar key, so Cloud's only magic is gonna be Fire, Ice, Lightning, and Healing. Which, again considering they spawn directly on enemies and Cloud is well over three times as strong at this point...

He quite literally isn't, if anything Guts has the AP advantage, Cloud has a 3x advantage over Guts' durability, not a 3x AP advantage over Guts' AP, as he has the Dragon Slayer, which is why he has a "higher" with it, because he's somewhere between 9-A, and like 8-A with the thing at that point.

that's not really what i meant in terms of "they can just dodge". What i'm trying to say is that guts' hand cannon is a one-off projectile, and should be a lot easier to dodge considering cloud's dodged multiple streams of projectiles before. But Cloud's magic just outright spawns on foes, so you can't really avoid that.

And Cloud isn't omniscient, and it wouldn't really be easy to dodge anyway given how Guts uses it, he doesn't spam it, he uses it only when he knows he can get a hit off, and sometimes he'd even allow himself to get critically injured just to guarantee a shot, though, Guts being Guts, critical injury is just a normal day for him and he'd walk it off due to him being that much of a damage sponge. Hell, Guts if absolutely forced, would even allow himself to like lose a limb or something at this point in the story if it'd allow him to get a killing blow.
Dodging is one thing sure, and he'd likely be able to dodge quite easily at a distance, but they're not exactly far apart, to further that as said, it'd only be used when he knows he can land it, and it's strong enough to one shot Cloud.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Yeah, you realize they start off in like swing distance though right? Guts' blade is literally close to hitting him from OP distance.

So is cloud's, with cloud having the smaller weapon and showing off more general agility and combos and such.

ANd honestly, I don't wanna be that dude but... I'm like 99% sure they don't LITERALLY spawn on them, with that just being hardware limitation given every time those spells are used in a normal 3d environment elsewhere, bar a handful, they don't literally spawn atop a foe, usually have a bit of range.

No, they literally spawn atop enemies. That's how spells in most FF games work. They're like persona ones, they're malleable.

We're using End of Golden Age Guts right? And the same goes to Cloud, Guts with the DS is a ludicrously **** ton of an amount higher, it's not just "hurt" foes he can't normally, it's quite literally kill them in one hit and splatter them, if Cloud gets hit by the DS, it's gonna be worse compared to Guts getting hit by a 3x disadvantage durability wise, given he's had that happened numerous times, that's part of his schtick actually.

Being frozen in ice that spawns on top of you and is 3.5x stronger is gonna put Guts down, pain tolerance or not lol

No, if they clash swords, they simply clash because we're talking sword swings, not binds, binds are where LS is applied, actual swinging and dueling is AP, and we have Cloud with a advantage in AP sure, but he's also clashing with AP that's unironically probably higher than his if Guts has the Dragon Slayer, in which case, that's moreso an advantage for Guts, not Cloud, if they start sword dueling.

That is literally not how that works at all.

And the same thing applies to Guts with the calc he's scaling off, what's your point? They both upscale at that point in the story, it wouldn't actually change anything here.

It proves cloud is still stronger lol

He quite literally isn't, if anything Guts has the AP advantage, Cloud has a 3x advantage over Guts' durability, not a 3x AP advantage over Guts' AP, as he has the Dragon Slayer, which is why he has a "higher" with it, because he's somewhere between 9-A, and like 8-A with the thing at that point.

Wow okay so you're literally just ignoring basic wiki rules now huh

And Cloud isn't omniscient, and it wouldn't really be easy to dodge anyway given how Guts uses it, he doesn't spam it, he uses it only when he knows he can get a hit off, and sometimes he'd even allow himself to get critically injured just to guarantee a shot, though, Guts being Guts, critical injury is just a normal day for him and he'd walk it off due to him being that much of a damage sponge. Hell, Guts if absolutely forced, would even allow himself to like lose a limb or something at this point in the story if it'd allow him to get a killing blow.

Okay, except having a point blank 3.5x ability that just outright spawns on you hitting you is gonna kill. That's how the wiki works. This is literally season 2 death battle tier logic lmao

Dodging is one thing sure, and he'd likely be able to dodge quite easily at a distance, but they're not exactly far apart, to further that as said, it'd only be used when he knows he can land it, and it's strong enough to one shot Cloud.

And cloud can just block with his vastly superior weapon, or get out of the way, or literally just use his thought-based magic to kill him right then and there.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

 

[Chariot190]

Not talking about those specific characters in those specific circumstances, but a bind in a sword fight can be very much desirable depending on your fighting style. Several masters that I studied in HEMA advocated for using binds, with systems such as La Verdadera Destreza advocating the use of the bind. I do agree that it is a bad idea doing that against Guts, as, y'know, cannon go boom, but just something 4fun.

My bad on triple posting but, it's a very bad idea here, especially given both their fighting styles, in fact, I don't think it's possible to bind given the weapons they're using. They're literally just slaps of giant steel.
I suppose binding definitely has merits depending on the style, weapon and more, but for these two? Outside of cool anime crosscounter shots and binds for the sake of being cool, it's a very, very bad idea, for both of them u

So is cloud's, with cloud having the smaller weapon and showing off more general agility and combos and such.

No it isn't actually, Cloud's reach at the start is about 50% lower than Guts, given Guts sword alone is like double Cloud's.
Midgar Cloud? I actually wouldn't be so sure he has more agility, they're probably actually about the same, they can both do big jumps and flips and the like, even while lugging around a big ass sword. Cloud later on would have better mobility though.

No, they literally spawn atop enemies. That's how spells in most FF games work. They're like persona ones, they're malleable.

Which is why outside of turn based RPG games they never do and the very same spells but the very same characters in the very same setting in a non set rpg distance setting they almost never get portrayed like that? Especially the basic fire, lighting and the like spells? I ain't talking about Persona, completely different game.

It proves cloud is still stronger lol

It proves that durability wise, he's just only 3x stronger and this absolute ridiculous number you're implying, they both upscale off the calcs given.
Cloud upscales off his? Cool. So does Guts. Meaning, Cloud upscaling doesn't actually make the gap larger than 3x, it stays relative.

Wow okay so you're literally just ignoring basic wiki rules now huh

Are you? Did you not bother reading the profile, "higher with the Dragon Slayer and Arm cannon", it's higher because it isnt 9-A. Otherwise, it'd be ******* 9-A, common sense dude.
What rules am I ignoring exactly? I'm following the profiles, if anything you aren't because you're completely ignoring that with the Dragon Slayer, which Guts has in this match, he's a ludicrous amount above 9-A in general, we may not list him as 8-A with it, at least not yet because he just got it, but the higher exists to denote he's somewhere between 9-A and his future 8-A. This is simply how he's rated, if anything it'd be best if you stopped ignoring what's actually written upon the profile.

Okay, except having a point blank 3.5x ability that just outright spawns on you hitting you is gonna kill. That's how the wiki works. This is literally season 2 death battle tier logic lmao

Uh, no it doesn't dude? 3.5 isn't a one shot, we actually have a exact one shot value to use in vs matches, for it to one shot, it needs to be at least 7x above the opposing character's durability, and that isn't something Cloud has here. Like what in the actual **** are you talking about "that's how the wiki works", we've had that 7x one shot rule for years now dude. It's even worse here as Guts takes shit that should kill him all the time and is way above him, and due to being the sponge that he is, just endures it even if it should kill him.

And cloud can just block with his vastly superior weapon, or get out of the way, or literally just use his thought-based magic to kill him right then and there.

And so can Guts, and so can Guts again, his magic isn't even thought based dude, I've played the ******* games, hell I probably played them before you were even born at that, I bought that shit at launch.


So lets get this straight, you 1. Are ignoring the blatant "higher" with the Dragon Slayer and acting like Guts is only hitting with 9-A ap despite the fact the higher is there for the very reason. 2. You don't even know the basic 7x one shot rule. 3. You're ignoring they start off in cqc distance and Cloud wouldn't opt for ******* magic when he's close enough to sword fight in character. 4. Acting like Guts doesn't have the exact same things going for him like having a blade Cloud can't break yet too. 5. Acting like Guts himself just cant dodge. **** i could go on man.

 

[Chariot190]

Oh, my bad, turns out you're just a ****.

Though due to your inability to read...
"
Assuming a situation in which one character has humanoid physiology and is hit in the torso region, the assailant will normally be treated as needing an attack potency 7.5 times higher than their opponent's durability in order to one-shot them.

Some important points to consider regarding this guideline are listed below:

• The gap of 7.5x is based on the difference between a street level character and a human level character, with the former being commonly accepted as capable of one-shotting the latter,
• This value is only an approximation, and the actual gap can be higher or lower depending on certain factors. As such, it should not be assumed that a gap of 7.5x will lead to a one-shot in every single situation without exception.
• For example, If one character exhibited his level of attack potency casually and another nearly died while exhibiting his level of durability, then the gap between their respective statistics that is needed for a one-shot to happen may in fact be lower than 7.5x.
• A character can be one-shot without a significant advantage in strength if one targets their weakpoints. This does not apply for those characters who are able to take hits to their weakpoints like any other location on their body.
• This gap is strictly for versus debating purposes, and will not apply when attempting to derive the attack potency of a character based on a feat of one-shotting another character in his or her verse."

From the wiki itself.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Nice text wall, cloud thinks GG

 

[Chariot190]

Nice text wall, cloud thinks GG

Not a proper argument.

That's not even something he can do.
Or are you about to say Cloud putting his sword away, charging, and doing a hand gesture is just for show? Which is what he does, every time he uses a spell, even in the original game.

Like if you wanna spout bullshit, you could at least make sure it isn't easily proven wrong by anyone with internet and literacy.

 

[ZetaMarishi]

I'll be honest, I'm just gonna go for Cloud due to the spells spawning on Guts and just having a much better shot of being able to hit him meaningfully than Guts does due to that.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Not a proper argument.

That's not even something he can do.
Or are you about to say Cloud putting his sword away, charging, and doing a hand gesture is just for show? Which is what he does, every time he uses a spell, even in the original game.

Damn I guess every other piece of ff media except a ps1 game doesn’t exist huh

Like if you wanna spout bullshit, you could at least make sure it isn't easily proven wrong by anyone with internet and literacy.

Right back at you pal

 

[Chariot190]

I'll be honest, I'm just gonna go for Cloud due to the spells spawning on Guts and just having a much better shot of being able to hit him meaningfully than Guts does due to that.

They start within sword duel distance, Cloud is in character and wouldn't exactly stand there and do a spell while he's within swinging distance of a sword that would bisect him.

They arent starting like 50m apart, they're starting 5m apart, in character.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Cloud FRA

 

[Chariot190]

Damn I guess every other piece of ff media except a ps1 game doesn’t exist huh

You realize that's like the only time Cloud and friends have that "spawn atop a enemy" spells. **** in basically everything else they don't do that, and still arent thought based. Like good ****, we just had a remake that's an explicit sequel to the original which had the very same spells both not be thought based and not spawn atop a foe. Again, why the **** you lying.

Right back at you pal

Except I'm not blatantly lying, what, you don't like the fact Guts has higher AP than Cloud in this key due to the Dragon Slayer? Tough luck dude.

 

[Paul_Frank]

higher because it isnt 9-A. Otherwise, it'd be ******* 9-A, common sense dude.

That's not how higher ratings work
Higher on a profile means they are some unknown amount above their normal AP rating with whatever has the higher rating. Not that they are secretly way above their tier by several orders of magnitude, if they were actually higher to that extent, the character would be listed as X tier with (Insert item or technique here), so with a higher rating, it's just some vague amount stronger than normal.

In any case, I'm gonna just vote Cloud, the arguments for him being able to win are a lot more well, straightforward and likely given the things he has in his favor

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

That’s 5-1 in clouds favor if my count is correct, 6 if Bambu was voting cloud

 

[Chariot190]

What FRA, the FRA is literally just ignoring the starting distance (2m apparently, literally shorter than Guts' blade), lying about how spells work, ignoring how Cloud would act in character and ignoring Guts is the one with the AP advantage here, not Cloud.

Higher on a profile means they are some unknown about above their normal AP rating with whatever has the higher rating. Not that they are secretly way above their tier by several orders of magnitude, if they were actually higher to that extent, the character would be listed as X tier with (Insert item or technique here), so with a higher rating, it's just some vague amount stronger than normal.

Except that's precisely what it means in this context, dude is closer to 8-A with it then he is 9-A, we just can't pin down an exact value.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

You realize that's like the only time Cloud and friends have that "spawn atop a enemy" spells. **** in basically everything else they don't do that, and still arent thought based. Like good ****, we just had a remake that's an explicit sequel to the original which had the very same spells both not be thought based and not spawn atop a foe. Again, why the **** you lying.

Except I'm not blatantly lying, what, you don't like the fact Guts has higher AP than Cloud in this key due to the Dragon Slayer? Tough luck dude.

Having a higher durability blade doesn’t physically increase guts’ strength so he still gets ****** by a 3.5x ap gap and better everything lol

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Btw if we used your logic cloud would have high 5-A ap

 

[Chariot190]

Having a higher durability blade doesn’t physically increase guts’ strength so he still gets ****** by a 3.5x ap gap and better everything lol

No, but having a weapon that hits with far more force does.
Cloud is getting ****** if he gets hit as well mind you, it goes both ways, and they're forced into a ******* sword duel.

 

[Abstractions]

Them being five meters apart would decrease the odds of Cloud going for spells rather than keeping his guard with his sword, I'm not fully familiar with Guts' fighting style but he's probably not going to just stand there.

 

[Chariot190]

Btw if we used your logic cloud would have high 5-A ap

Uh no we wouldn't because Cloud is blatantly only 9-A while yielding it at that point. Could you not use some blatant false equivalences here?

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

No, but having a weapon that hits with far more force does.
Cloud is getting ****** if he gets hit as well mind you, it goes both ways, and they're forced into a ******* sword duel.

It doesn’t hit with more force, it has higher durability and let’s guts thus hurt bigger opponents by the blade being tougher than said opponents. That’s how that works

Cloud still just spells him

 

[HST_Master]

If the Dragonslayer is that much higher that Guts himself, why does he not simply scale?

Not a proper argument.

That's not even something he can do.
Or are you about to say Cloud putting his sword away, charging, and doing a hand gesture is just for show? Which is what he does, every time he uses a spell, even in the original game.

Like if you wanna spout bullshit, you could at least make sure it isn't easily proven wrong by anyone with internet and literacy.

Several games such as Dissidia, FFBE etc. Have shown he can cast magic with one hand.

 

[Chariot190]

It doesn’t hit with more force, it has higher durability and let’s guts thus hurt bigger opponents by the blade being tougher than said opponents. That’s how that works

Cloud still just spells him

It doesn't hit with more force? Which is why he literally bisected and splattered an apostle he was getting his ass kicked by moments prior? That was rhetorical. It's a giant chunk of steel, of Couse it has more force, Guts is swinging around something like 100x heavier then his previous weapons at the same exact velocity, it's half the reason he gets as strong as he is with it in the source material. And even with your reasoning, that would still function the exact same way, he can completely **** and bisect characters far, far, far above him with it.

Cloud spelling on him would unironically result in Cloud dying, doing a spell when in what is essentially arm's reach is a ******* stupid thing to do, it's going to take Cloud longer to do a spell then it'd take Guts to just swing once at an opponent in swinging distance.

 

[deonment]

Cloud FRA, since LS means he can win the sword clash easier, and while hand canon cannon can likely stun cloud and get him off guts, while guts is closing the distance cloud could a)use spells, or b)get the hell out of dodge to recover from getting shot in the relative stomach area I would assume and guts wont be able to one-shot since just one-shotting someone wont be enough to jump a 3x gap unless it is a really bad one shot

 

[Chariot190]

If the Dragonslayer is that much higher that Guts himself, why does he not simply scale?

Good question, we've literally never seen it not completely **** an Apostle besides Mozgus and Grunbeld.

Several games such as Dissidia, FFBE etc. Have shown he can cast magic with one hand.

So not thought based and spawning directly atop an enemy then?

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

If this becomes CQC cloud is over 3x as strong and has higher lifting strength as well as a far more maneuverable weapon and more versatility at close range, what with being able to cast spells with a massive aoe and even infuse them into his swings and body, so at that point he still just dominates with ease lol

 

[Chariot190]

while hand canon cannon

The arm cannon one shots if it hits, not just stuns, Guts' weaker version is 8-A, his initial one, the cannon he has here, is even stronger, to the point the recoil alone can dislocate his shoulder.

while guts is closing the distance

What distance? They're literally within sword distance of each other, they don't even have to move a foot to swing and hit their foe.

guts wont be able to one-shot since just one-shotting someone wont be enough to jump a 3x gap unless it is a really bad one shot

Blew the huge bloody hole through a dude stronger than him, also stronger than his later cannon which can one shot or cripple 8-A's.

 

[HST_Master]

Good question, we've literally never seen it not completely **** an Apostle besides Mozgus and Grunbeld.

So not thought based and spawning directly atop an enemy then?

Depends on the game which is why it's considered malleable. Sometimes it spawns sometimes it's a projectile, even both in the same game like FFBE.