Cirno's Ice Feat

[Agnaa]

I can see where this calc comes from, but having a closer look I don't think it's actually legit.

A few pages beforehand, we get a shot of the surrounding area, and we can see a hill near them, before Cirno performs the feat.

In the panel being calculated, we actually see a decent, but much smaller amount of ice closer to Cirno and the other fairies. It's just really weird presentation-wise for the part closer to her and the others to be so much smaller than the larger amount being used for this calculation. Plus, the part being referenced does kinda look like a hill; it's not quite like the ice we see elsewhere.

And, it's kinda weird presentation-wise how panels of her performing the feat focus on her freezing flowers and small animals; if she made a massive mound, why not highlight that?

Performing that feat made her pass out, so regardless, it shouldn't scale to her typical attacks, only to full exertion. Plus, the profiles should justify why there's Striking Strength and Durability scaling from this non-physical invocation of magic.

If these reasons suck, or if there's other profiles these changes would effect, or if there's other good feats that could replace this, please let me know :3

 

[Agnaa]

@Psychomaster35 @Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara You two might be invested in this

 

[Psychomaster35]

I was told that Cirno's getting massively upgraded (Up to High 3-A) alongside various other characters as part of some mass revisions anyway, so this would be redundant to discuss.

 

[Agnaa]

At base? Wew. If someone can confirm that, then I'll close this thread until that gets accepted/rejected. If it gets rejected, remind me, and I'll re-open this.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I was told that Cirno's getting massively upgraded (Up to High 3-A) alongside various other characters as part of some mass revisions anyway, so this would be redundant to discuss.

At base? Wew. If someone can confirm that, then I'll close this thread until that gets accepted/rejected. If it gets rejected, remind me, and I'll re-open this.

No, not in base. She'll still scale to 8-B in base (I hope so, anyways). High 3-A is for her tanned form scaling to multiple statements of becoming infinitely stronger via borrowing a small fraction of a 2-C character's own power. That upgrade's a long way off, anyways. I'll work on a reply to the OP in a bit, but I just wanted to clarify this.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I can see where this calc comes from, but having a closer look I don't think it's actually legit.

A few pages beforehand, we get a shot of the surrounding area, and we can see a hill near them, before Cirno performs the feat.

This was accounted for in the original upgrade thread. It downgrades the feat by less than a full ton.

In the panel being calculated, we actually see a decent, but much smaller amount of ice closer to Cirno and the other fairies. It's just really weird presentation-wise for the part closer to her and the others to be so much smaller than the larger amount being used for this calculation. Plus, the part being referenced does kinda look like a hill; it's not quite like the ice we see elsewhere.

I disagree. The previous page gives us a clear view of the surrounding area, and there's nothing that you could reasonably interpret as being the same as the hill we see later on. The thing is over 25 feet tall, and the fairies don't move from their position while Cirno freezes everything; If there was anything that big in the immediate vicinity, we would've seen it in the overhead shot. Other depictions of the same location also don't show this mysterious giant hill despite it dwarfing everything in the area; We only ever see it after Cirno performs her freezing feat.

I also think the hill looks similar enough to the ice but tbh it's kinda ambiguous

And, it's kinda weird presentation-wise how panels of her performing the feat focus on her freezing flowers and small animals; if she made a massive mound, why not highlight that?

The very first part of that panel is of the ice spreading over the surface of the lake, though? And then the bottom part shows fragments of ice that are taller than Clownpiece (who, while pretty short, is still within human height range), so I feel like this is focusing on only a small part of the evidence provided and not the full picture. I guess I understand the core point of "we don't see the hill being created", but we don't really see the ice centered on the fairies being created, either, and you don't seem to have a problem with attributing that to Cirno. The fact remains that the hill only shows up after Cirno freezes everything, so I think it's just a matter of Occam's Razor at that point.

Performing that feat made her pass out, so regardless, it shouldn't scale to her typical attacks, only to full exertion. Plus, the profiles should justify why there's Striking Strength and Durability scaling from this non-physical invocation of magic.

The feat was performed in mid-summer, where Cirno is far weaker than normal (since fairies are living embodiments of nature, and get stronger or weaker depending on factors like the season or the state of natural phenomena). We literally see her melting and dying like, 2 pages beforehand, so it's more reasonable to assume her exhaustion came from her near-death state.

As for physical scaling, Cirno freezes things by absorbing the heat from her surroundings and taking it into her own body, so that might help prove there's some level of physical scaling? That aside, Touhou has an accepted UES in the form of spiritual energy (page is heavily outdated but all the information relevant to this thread is fine). Spiritual energy is the essence of one's physical and mental characteristics, empowering one's attacks as they gain more spirit (including physical attacks such as sword slashes or throwing knives), and it is considered equivalent to one's stamina. Everyone in the verse has access to and uses spiritual energy since it's a fundamental component in the usage of magic (which everyone uses), and like. It's their soul, they need that shit for reasons I hope are obvious.

If this isn't convincing, then there are some backup feats we could use. Individual fairies are consistently able to create localized thunderstorms, and can survive being struck by natural lightning whilst flying. Cirno herself has multiple decent ice creation feats in one of the fighting games (including freezing people solid, so 9-A at worst). Characters that are stronger than Cirno but upscale from her calc also have feats like surviving a point blank explosion (high 8-C, though there was a bit of contention over that) or causing spontaneous combustion in buildings (220 tons, which... really doesn't feel right but I ain't enough of a mathematician to say for sure). I'll gladly expand upon any of these feats, if you deem it necessary.
really, this part is just me begging for someone to calc all the extra feats i have in my backlog

I hope this clarifies some of the issues you had. Let me know if you need anything else.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

By the way, I guess I should also mention I'm fine with downgrading all the characters weaker than Cirno (everyone who isn't Cirno herself or being scaled to 8-B+) to the next best thing, which might be 8-C by my estimates. Cirno is consistently depicted as being one of the strongest fairies out there, so I don't think the fodder fairies that regularly get blown up in the mainline games have any busienss scaling to her even if you ignore her passing out at the very end. I was gonna wait until the big revisions before touching stats, but fuck it, may as well tackle it here while it's relevant.

Also,

:3

I disagree with the thread for this alone.

 

[Agnaa]

This was accounted for in the original upgrade thread. It downgrades the feat by less than a full ton.

I disagree. The previous page gives us a clear view of the surrounding area, and there's nothing that you could reasonably interpret as being the same as the hill we see later on. The thing is over 25 feet tall, and the fairies don't move from their position while Cirno freezes everything; If there was anything that big in the immediate vicinity, we would've seen it in the overhead shot. Other depictions of the same location also don't show this mysterious giant hill despite it dwarfing everything in the area; We only ever see it after Cirno performs her freezing feat.

I also think the hill looks similar enough to the ice but tbh it's kinda ambiguous

Ehh, those other depictions don't show anything at all, including the hill that you accounted for.

It feels like it's more likely to just be inconsistently drawing the size of the hill, rather than covering the hill with ice to make it that much bigger. Is essentially my Occam's Razor-ish view.

The very first part of that panel is of the ice spreading over the surface of the lake, though? And then the bottom part shows fragments of ice that are taller than Clownpiece (who, while pretty short, is still within human height range), so I feel like this is focusing on only a small part of the evidence provided and not the full picture. I guess I understand the core point of "we don't see the hill being created", but we don't really see the ice centered on the fairies being created, either, and you don't seem to have a problem with attributing that to Cirno. The fact remains that the hill only shows up after Cirno freezes everything, so I think it's just a matter of Occam's Razor at that point.

Eh, I think we kinda do see the ice centered on the fairies be created; we see ice pop up around them to some extent.

(I did notice the lake freezing stuff after I posted, but it seemed a bit tangential so I didn't mention it)

The feat was performed in mid-summer, where Cirno is far weaker than normal (since fairies are living embodiments of nature, and get stronger or weaker depending on factors like the season or the state of natural phenomena). We literally see her melting and dying like, 2 pages beforehand, so it's more reasonable to assume her exhaustion came from her near-death state.

That does make things ambiguous, but I still wouldn't be solid on scaling it to her ordinary casual attacks. But that does make such a high-end more useful in matches (she probably wouldn't collapse if she exerted herself that much during winter).

While I'd lean towards removing this, I wouldn't surprised if this ended up just being put to likely/possibly.

As for physical scaling, Cirno freezes things by absorbing the heat from her surroundings and taking it into her own body, so that might help prove there's some level of physical scaling? That aside, Touhou has an accepted UES in the form of spiritual energy (page is heavily outdated but all the information relevant to this thread is fine). Spiritual energy is the essence of one's physical and mental characteristics, empowering one's attacks as they gain more spirit (including physical attacks such as sword slashes or throwing knives), and it is considered equivalent to one's stamina. Everyone in the verse has access to and uses spiritual energy since it's a fundamental component in the usage of magic (which everyone uses), and like. It's their soul, they need that shit for reasons I hope are obvious.

If this isn't convincing, then there are some backup feats we could use. Individual fairies are consistently able to create localized thunderstorms, and can survive being struck by natural lightning whilst flying. Cirno herself has multiple decent ice creation feats in one of the fighting games (including freezing people solid, so 9-A at worst). Characters that are stronger than Cirno but upscale from her calc also have feats like surviving a point blank explosion (high 8-C, though there was a bit of contention over that) or causing spontaneous combustion in buildings (220 tons, which... really doesn't feel right but I ain't enough of a mathematician to say for sure). I'll gladly expand upon any of these feats, if you deem it necessary.
really, this part is just me begging for someone to calc all the extra feats i have in my backlog

I'm a bit busy to dig into the evidence for those right now (should have more time tonight, or in 4 days). But from a quick glance at the text itself, those don't seem like they'd support SS scaling, but it would support Dura scaling even though we probably shouldn't let heat feats work that way.

And for the support feats, small thunderstorms and ice creation seem promising. Feats from those stronger don't seem promising, since they're stronger 3:

I hope this clarifies some of the issues you had. Let me know if you need anything else.

Don't have another great place to say this, but I should mention that the calc, regardless, should be lower, since it doesn't account for the timeframe of multiple panels; we're meant to discount energy output for feats longer than 1 second. Taking 2 days to laser through a wall is less impressive than doing so in 1 second, ofc.

By the way, I guess I should also mention I'm fine with downgrading all the characters weaker than Cirno (everyone who isn't Cirno herself or being scaled to 8-B+) to the next best thing, which might be 8-C by my estimates. Cirno is consistently depicted as being one of the strongest fairies out there, so I don't think the fodder fairies that regularly get blown up in the mainline games have any busienss scaling to her even if you ignore her passing out at the very end. I was gonna wait until the big revisions before touching stats, but fuck it, may as well tackle it here while it's relevant.

Sounds good!

Also,

I disagree with the thread for this alone.

3:

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Ehh, those other depictions don't show anything at all, including the hill that you accounted for.


It feels like it's more likely to just be inconsistently drawing the size of the hill, rather than covering the hill with ice to make it that much bigger. Is essentially my Occam's Razor-ish view.

Psycho's updated calc puts the small hill at like, 3% the size of the hill we see at the end. I'll gladly account for artistic inconsistencies here and there (they're not all that uncommon in Touhou manga), but saying a hill accidentally jumped up to being over 30x larger in the span of like 2 pages feels like too much of a stretch for me to accept it.

I've also never been particularly convinced that the small hill and ice hill are the same, since it doesn't make sense with what we're shown (the small hill is on the shoreline while the ice hill is on dry land), but it's whatever.

That does make things ambiguous, but I still wouldn't be solid on scaling it to her ordinary casual attacks. But that does make such a high-end more useful in matches (she probably wouldn't collapse if she exerted herself that much during winter).

While I'd lean towards removing this, I wouldn't surprised if this ended up just being put to likely/possibly.

I'm not all that familiar with our standards on this; If someone performs an attack on death's door, and the exertion from that attack causes them to collapse, do we not usually scale that attack to their base statistics?

I'd be fine with a likely/possibly rating if that's the general consensus.

I'm a bit busy to dig into the evidence for those right now (should have more time tonight, or in 4 days). But from a quick glance at the text itself, those don't seem like they'd support SS scaling, but it would support Dura scaling even though we probably shouldn't let heat feats work that way.

The scan about Cirno absorbing heat, or the spirit stuff? If it's the latter, then I don't know why it wouldn't be scaled to SS. More spiritual energy = make sword hit harderer, I don't think it gets much more straightforward than that. The other stuff just supports the idea it's tied to physicals, and the basic idea that it's the pool of energy that fuels physical and magical actions alike.

And for the support feats, small thunderstorms and ice creation seem promising. Feats from those stronger don't seem promising, since they're stronger 3:

Very nice, I'd be happy to discuss the specifics of the thunderstorm feats at some point since there's not really a concrete way to determine their size (best I could do was this). The feats for stronger characters would just replace the 8-B+ upscaling they're stuck with now, so they don't get downgraded to whatever Cirno ends up scaling to.

Don't have another great place to say this, but I should mention that the calc, regardless, should be lower, since it doesn't account for the timeframe of multiple panels; we're meant to discount energy output for feats longer than 1 second. Taking 2 days to laser through a wall is less impressive than doing so in 1 second, ofc.

Clownpiece was caught off guard by everything freezing over; I think it was clearly intended for Cirno's feat to be a very sudden act, especially since her specialty is flash-freezing (pretty much all of her feats and descriptions of her ability either show or describe the freezing process as happening "instantly"). Also everyone in this scene is relativistic at worst so it should be under a second tbhhhh

3:

:3c

curse this wretched forum and its inability to let me post > :3c in peace

 

[Agnaa]

Psycho's updated calc puts the small hill at like, 3% the size of the hill we see at the end. I'll gladly account for artistic inconsistencies here and there (they're not all that uncommon in Touhou manga), but saying a hill accidentally jumped up to being over 30x larger in the span of like 2 pages feels like too much of a stretch for me to accept it.

For some changes in size, sure, but in that case our measuring stick is 5 pixels high, so bigger issues like that seem plausible.

I've also never been particularly convinced that the small hill and ice hill are the same, since it doesn't make sense with what we're shown (the small hill is on the shoreline while the ice hill is on dry land), but it's whatever.

Is the ice one on dry land? There's a texture change shown in that manga panel, but tbh I'm not sure what those different surfaces are meant to be (kinda looks like it's on ice/grass, with dirt nearby? Ice would be kinda close, but still a bit off from the shoreline freezing, but grass would be completely wrong)

I'm not all that familiar with our standards on this; If someone performs an attack on death's door, and the exertion from that attack causes them to collapse, do we not usually scale that attack to their base statistics?

I'd be fine with a likely/possibly rating if that's the general consensus.

We don't have standards that specific, but I'd argue we shouldn't, and would similarly defer to general consensus.

The scan about Cirno absorbing heat, or the spirit stuff? If it's the latter, then I don't know why it wouldn't be scaled to SS. More spiritual energy = make sword hit harderer, I don't think it gets much more straightforward than that. The other stuff just supports the idea it's tied to physicals, and the basic idea that it's the pool of energy that fuels physical and magical actions alike.

The heat stuff. The spirit stuff seems a bit wack since it seems like there's probably telekinesis involved, rather than directly powering their muscles so they can throw harder. But if it does work that way, then that'd work for SS.

Clownpiece was caught off guard by everything freezing over; I think it was clearly intended for Cirno's feat to be a very sudden act, especially since her specialty is flash-freezing (pretty much all of her feats and descriptions of her ability either show or describe the freezing process as happening "instantly"). Also everyone in this scene is relativistic at worst so it should be under a second tbhhhh

I think this one still seemed to show it developing over the course of a few panels, but fair enough.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Is it? There's a texture change shown in that manga panel, but tbh I'm not sure what those different surfaces are meant to be (kinda looks like it's on ice/grass, with dirt nearby?)

In this panel, the fairies are on the shore of the lake, with foliage directly behind them and to the side. The hill is also very close to the shore (slightly closer to it than the fairies). In a later panel, the perspective is from the lake shore, showing the foliage behind the fairies, with the ice hill positioned behind them and some of the foliage; The hill is nowhere near the shore, or at the very least is further away from it than it was previously (hills cannot move, or at least I assume they can't).

I'm open to the possibility that it's an error, but I just wanted to point it out.

The heat stuff. The spirit stuff seems a bit wack since it seems like there's probably telekinesis involved, rather than directly powering their muscles so they can throw harder. But if it does work that way, then that'd work for SS.

It's not telekinesis. Techniques that recover spiritual energy are stated to strengthen the body. I'm also not sure how you could reconcile the sentence "the true nature of the physical and mental characteristics inherent in those beings" with telekinesis; I think it's pretty blatantly saying spiritual energy is what determines one's physicality and mentality.

Anyways, seems like we've hashed out most of the major points of contention, so could you please ping some more staff to take a look here?

 

[Agnaa]

Ah yeah, all that stuff you just mentioned seems pretty legit then.

I can write up a post explaining the stuff I currently do/don't care about later, and we may want for you to hash out the backup feats for the weaker characters, but I can ping staff before then. Do you know anyone good for Touhou, or should I just grab random names?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Ah yeah, all that stuff you just mentioned seems pretty legit then.

I can write up a post explaining the stuff I currently do/don't care about later, and we may want for you to hash out the backup feats for the weaker characters, but I can ping staff before then. Do you know anyone good for Touhou, or should I just grab random names?

Random names, no staff members care for Touhou all that much. I won't be available for very long tomorrow, so let me know if there's anything you need from me tonight and I'll try to get around to it before I go to bed.

 

[Agnaa]

If there's any other feats for random fairies you'd want me to look into calcing, post 'em. Otherwise, we should be good.

@Andytrenom @Damage3245 @Firestorm808 @Dereck03 @KingTempest @LephyrTheRevanchist @ActuallySpaceMan42

plz have a look at this thread.

tl;dr

1. I think the feat may be fundamentally flawed; with the ice block actually being a pre-existing hill, Fuji disagrees.
2. I think this feat may need to have a longer timeframe applied (something in the range of 2-4 seconds), Fuji doesn't.
3. I don't think this should scale to casual attacks, Fuji thinks it probably should, we're both fine with meeting at a likely/possibly if staff consensus gets there.
4. We're gonna look into different feats entirely for characters weaker than Cirno.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Storm creation's the best I got atm but I'll do a quick skim through the manga to make sure I didn't miss anything.

EDIT: One fairy can bring spring to all of Gensokyo through her own power, but I'm of the opinion that a feat like that is a huge outlier. An offsite calc for it got like, 16 megatons iirc, and I ain't comfortable with that when the verse's mid-tiers are barely scraping by with 6.5 megatons and they're supposed to be laughably superior to fairies.

 

[Agnaa]

Actually, think I'm moving back to the hill/ice placement still being a bit sus.

Two panels before the last one that was calced, we can see the hill/ice being near the girls, in a size more comparable to its first appearance. Like, that angling is not at all consistent with the last panel, making me find a drawing inconsistency a bit more likely.

There is still the foliage issue with the idea of it just being a hill, but the other inconsistencies make me find a placement issue like that a bit more likely.

Still, I'm not back to a solid removal based on that alone.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Actually, think I'm moving back to the hill/ice placement still being a bit sus.

Two panels before the last one that was calced, we can see the hill/ice being near the girls, in a size more comparable to its first appearance. Like, that angling is not at all consistent with the last panel, making me find a drawing inconsistency a bit more likely.

In the first panel, the hill is about 2-3x taller than the fairies. The hill as depicted here is much larger than that, and it's in the background compared to them, meaning the size difference is likely much larger than what we see.

 

[Agnaa]

It's likely larger than what we see, but it's showing that curvature at a height that's, like, ~5x bigger than their heads. The panel that we're calcing shows it curving about the same amount at a height ~30x bigger than their heads.

Do ya see what I mean? If it was curving like that and ending naturally, it wouldn't be 6x taller, especially when compared to the block we're calcing where we similarly can't even see all of it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It's likely larger than what we see, but it's showing that curvature at a height of, like, ~5x bigger than their heads. The panel that we're calcing shows it curving about the same amount at a height ~30x bigger than their heads.

I don't think it's really possible to determine that, though. The hill is an indeterminate distance in the background, and the bottom of it is cut off so we have no way to tell what the curvature height is relative to the fairies.

 

[Agnaa]

From this panel in particular, I think it's shown being close enough for that not to be an issue.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

From this panel in particular, I think it's shown being close enough for that not to be an issue.

That's the exact panel I'm referring to. I don't think it's as clear cut as you're making it out to be, especially since the final panel the calc is based on gives us a much clearer shot where there's far less ambiguity on the hill's position relative to the fairies.

On another note, would refracting enough light that you become bright enough to mimic the rising sun be notable at all or is there no way to scale that to AP? Luminosity feats are impossible for me to understand so I might just be insane.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Agnaa]

Pinging 1/7th of staff until I get an evaluation challenge day 2 (YOU WON'T BELIEVE WHAT HAPPENS NEXT (NO-ONE RESPONDS))

@Antvasima @Wokistan @Starter_Pack @Everything12 @Planck69 @Armorchompy @Deagonx

 

[Deagonx]

I'll take a look probably some time tomorrow or tonight.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I think the feat may be fundamentally flawed; with the ice block actually being a pre-existing hill, Fuji disagrees.

Two things about this that I want to clarify; First is that the original upgrade thread re-calculated the feat while taking into account the mass of the hill in the overhead shot. It amounts to 48 tons, which is still 8-B. Also, you can see the hill has a small tree or shrub at the apex, while the larger hill we see later on is completely barren.

 

[Agnaa]

True, but the larger hill we see later has its top off-screen.

 

[Armorchompy]

very short thread but i'm lazy so can i get a recap since you guys seem to have hit a partial consensus already

 

[Antvasima]

What do you currently think should be done here, and why, Agnaa?

 

[Agnaa]

So, it's about this calc.

1. I think the thing being calced is probably a hill that was already there before she did any ice magic simply being drawn inconsistently. Fuji acknowledges that the hill was already there, but has the calc account for its presence based on that earlier size, only reducing the result by 1 ton, believing that the new one is too big to be the same thing. We've each provided a bunch of small reasons for and against this reasoning throughout the thread.
2. If we treat it as legit, I think it should be taken as having a timeframe of three seconds since it seems to gradually be done over three panels. Fuji says that it should be treated as one second or lower, since:
   • The character in the second page has a surprised expression, implying she was caught off-guard by it as a sudden act.
   • Her specialty is apparently flash-freezing, with her other feats and descriptions of her ability describing it as happening instantly (although I don't think scans were provided for this).
   • The characters in the scene are close to or above lightspeed.
3. Since performing this feat made her pass out, I don't think it should scale to her regular attacks. Although, she was pretty exhausted beforehand, and faries get stronger or weaker depending on the season and weather; with her being an ice fairy, it's expected that she'd be weaker or have less stamina here. Essentially, she thinks that context makes it scale to casual magic, I just think it means she wouldn't pass out when using it in winter, but that it'd still be beyond her casual stuff.
4. Other fairies currently scale to her despite her portrayal of being the strongest, maybe that shouldn't be a thing and we should just scale them to bit feats from random fairies instead. We're both pretty much on the same page about this one, it just needs a bit of Effort since they've gotta be calculated. (Although, from the little I know about Touhou, Cirno's boasts about being the strongest are typically taken as wrong; I'd want Fuji to show a few scans of this being done more seriously).

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the summary.

So what are your own conclusions based on this?

 

[Agnaa]

That we shouldn't use this calc (we could still calc other parts of the feat, like the partial lake-freezing and other ice structures around them), and if we do use it or other parts of the feat, they should be taken over a 3 second timeframe and be a higher-end rating above her casual attacks.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I think those conclusions seem good to apply.

 

[Armorchompy]

So, it's about this calc.

1. I think the thing being calced is probably a hill that was already there before she did any ice magic simply being drawn inconsistently. Fuji acknowledges that the hill was already there, but has the calc account for its presence based on that earlier size, only reducing the result by 1 ton, believing that the new one is too big to be the same thing. We've each provided a bunch of small reasons for and against this reasoning throughout the thread.

Giving the whole thing a bit of a look, I dunno, It's definitely meant to be the same hill, is your argument that it's not frozen over and just looks different due to art inconsistency?

1. If we treat it as legit, I think it should be taken as having a timeframe of three seconds since it seems to gradually be done over three panels. Fuji says that it should be treated as one second or lower, since:
   • The character in the second page has a surprised expression, implying she was caught off-guard by it as a sudden act.
   • Her specialty is apparently flash-freezing, with her other feats and descriptions of her ability describing it as happening instantly (although I don't think scans were provided for this).
   • The characters in the scene are close to or above lightspeed.

I'm with you on this one. Surprise doesn't necessarily equal something happening so fast you can't comprehend it at all, they seem to be more surprised she can do it at all. And the light speed stuff is just calc-stack-y logic.

1. Since performing this feat made her pass out, I don't think it should scale to her regular attacks. Although, she was pretty exhausted beforehand, and faries get stronger or weaker depending on the season and weather; with her being an ice fairy, it's expected that she'd be weaker or have less stamina here. Essentially, she thinks that context makes it scale to casual magic, I just think it means she wouldn't pass out when using it in winter, but that it'd still be beyond her casual stuff.

I don't think it wouldn't scale to regular attacks, it's a feat done at peak strength but I wouldn't expect that to make it thousands of times higher than her normal attacks, it's just "yeah her normal output is probably a bit weaker". I guess At most [result] if you had to.

1. Other fairies currently scale to her despite her portrayal of being the strongest, maybe that shouldn't be a thing and we should just scale them to bit feats from random fairies instead. We're both pretty much on the same page about this one, it just needs a bit of Effort since they've gotta be calculated. (Although, from the little I know about Touhou, Cirno's boasts about being the strongest are typically taken as wrong; I'd want Fuji to show a few scans of this being done more seriously).

Aight

 

[Agnaa]

Giving the whole thing a bit of a look, I dunno, It's definitely meant to be the same hill, is your argument that it's not frozen over and just looks different due to art inconsistency?

Ye.

I don't think it wouldn't scale to regular attacks, it's a feat done at peak strength but I wouldn't expect that to make it thousands of times higher than her normal attacks, it's just "yeah her normal output is probably a bit weaker". I guess At most [result] if you had to.

Fair enough, things would be silly if we tried being a bit too careful. Might see where the next-best feat lands, then, to decide whether it deserves actually being listed as a lower end.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

(Although, from the little I know about Touhou, Cirno's boasts about being the strongest are typically taken as wrong; I'd want Fuji to show a few scans of this being done more seriously).

Cirno being the strongest in general is obviously wrong, but she is consistently stated to be stronger than other fairies, and the three fairies of light couldn't beat her even if they fought her all at once, which is what I'm basing the scaling off of. I'm also excluding fairies like Clownpiece or Eternity Larva when I say this, since they have scaling that's completely unique to them and the former is 2-C lol.

Her specialty is apparently flash-freezing, with her other feats and descriptions of her ability describing it as happening instantly (although I don't think scans were provided for this).

Here you go. All her attacks in Hisoutensoku also happen in like, under a second. The only times her freezing feats take place over time are when she's limited by her range (like trying and failing to freeze an entire lake), or when she's trying to be more precise (like crafting an arrow made of ice).

I'm with you on this one. Surprise doesn't necessarily equal something happening so fast you can't comprehend it at all, they seem to be more surprised she can do it at all. And the light speed stuff is just calc-stack-y logic.

The light speed stuff was a joke lol

Giving the whole thing a bit of a look, I dunno, It's definitely meant to be the same hill, is your argument that it's not frozen over and just looks different due to art inconsistency?

yeah

If you assume the hill was frozen over and the size discrepancy is just a byproduct of that, the calc gets 48 tons (this is what was accepted in the original upgrade thread).

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Forgot a thing for Cirno's scaling, she's stated to possess so much power for a fairy that it's actively dangerous to her lol

 

[Agnaa]

Cirno being the strongest in general is obviously wrong, but she is consistently stated to be stronger than other fairies

You shouldn't include that last one btw, we don't accept MTL.

Other than that, seems good!

Here you go.

Eh, a lotta those are regular attacks from games which would typically be presented as pretty fast-paced. And the second-to-last one says she can instantly freeze small objects, which kinda tints the other ones differently when we're talking about a large-scale feat like this. I think that's a bit weak.

like trying and failing to freeze an entire lake

FTL speed anti-feat?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

You shouldn't include that last one btw, we don't accept MTL.

Other than that, seems good!

Look man if you wanna translate an entire 100-page guidebook that isn't recorded anywhere on the internet, then you're welcome to do so but for now this is the best I got.

Eh, a lotta those are regular attacks from games which would typically be presented as pretty fast-paced. And the second-to-last one says she can instantly freeze small objects, which kinda tints the other ones differently when we're talking about a large-scale feat like this. I think that's a bit weak.

The other ones involve feats like instantly freezing the ground (and creating a bunch of ice pillars on top of it) or entire human beings, I think those are a lot bigger than "small objects".

FTL speed anti-feat?

Never too late to turn this into a speed downgrade thread.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump