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Chronosapien Timebomb scaling revision

I mean, Alien X itself doesn't have the kind of time hax that gets rid of time ripples IIRC. There's different applications of time hax and time-ripples are more along the lines of a type of reality warping.

Plus it can just be CIS in that instance. Remember, this is the same Ben who was smart enough to design 2 omnitrixes so its not he's a natural imbecile.
 
>Again, theres 0 evidence that implies they have different abilities. Your speculating Alien X would win against the timebombs erasure when it was never actually used against it. All of which should be clear for why its not enough evidence to be tiered at such a high level here.

1-Eh yes there is the fact that Atomic x had to punch the CTB already proves that he dosn't have the same abilityes like Alien x because if he does Atomic x would use some abilities like Time manipulation in his fight against Malturant and also to reverse the CTB. This alone proves that Atomic x can't even manipulate time and he dosn't even Have EE ability or he would be able to his EE to stop the time bomb.

>It does since this was debunked in the other thread I made, which you're clearly aware of.

2- Bruh nothing has been debunked and no one agreed with you anyway, also you saied by yourself that the satement about alien x having the greatest power refers to having the greatest hax in the universe so it dosn't matter he is above the CTB
 
>Eh yes there is the fact that Atomic x had to punch the CTB already proves that he dosn't have the same abilityes like Alien x because if he does Atomic x would use some abilities like Time manipulation in his fight against Malturant and also to reverse the CTB.

Or he didn't use it because it wasn't strong enough to defeat it. Which is the more logical assumption that takes the least amount of leaps in logic than what your arguing.

>Bruh nothing has been debunked and no one agreed with you anyway

The entire wikia can disagree with me. Doesn't mean im wrong. Facts are not determined by the ratio of who agrees/disagrees.

And like I said before, feats > statements. Again, Ben would've used his existence erasure to beat the timebombs if it was actually stronger than it.
 
>Or he didn't use it because it wasn't strong enough to defeat it.

1-Please stop downplaying, I will make it simple Atomic x didn't use Time manipulation against Malturant or to reverse the CTB than he doesn't have Time manipulation ability End of story.

>Again, Ben would've used his existence erasure to beat the timebombs if it was actually stronger than it.

2- Atomic x didn't use EE because HE DOSN'T HAVE EE ABILITY THAT'S WHY, since Atomic x dosn't have the same abilityes like Alien x than it dosn't matter wherever he is as strong as Alien x or not nothing would change
 
But im not talking about statements here. Im talking about acknowledgement. Him being established as being special compared to the random run of the mill Chronosapien.

So if it was the other way around, if Maltruent was repeatedly stated to be among the most powerful aliens in the series but all of his feats showcases him losing to the weakest aliens, would you ignore his feats or his statements?.

> No, it doesn't. When characters go through a spike in power with any feat, especially if it's a spike in tier, amps help to justify said spike as it shows they have a clear progression of power and have gotten stronger.

In Maltruent's first appearnce he starts off by casually one-shooting clockwork fused with Upgrade, Upgrade is at least 7-A, so the fusion is much stronger to an unknown degree.( Upgraded clockwork stomped Exo-Skull, who has stomped 2 of Ben's 7-A aliens.)

Maltruent has 0 previous feats before fighting fused Upgrade, so your nonsense about spike in power is just that, nonsense. Then he fights future Ben, Gwen and Ben's wife at the same time.

How does Maltruent casually one-shooting 7-A Upgrade Clockwork and then defeating 5-A Atomic X prove he isnt 5-A? It's not like casually stomping a character proves that you are the same tier as the character you stomped, that's complete utter nonsense. Going by the same logic, Diagon isnt 5-A, because he starts off with stomping 7-A or weaker characters and then defeats a 5-A characters with 0 amps or any explanation for his "jump in power".

>Um, yes? Because High 5-A is literally thousands of times superior to 7-A? 13 whole tiers apart from each other??? You clearly dont know the unbelievable difference in power then if you seriously have to ask this....

Ok, so a character who can defeat someone 7-A, cant stomp someone who is 5-A? This is the most asinine argument I have ever come across on this site, you are being extremely desperate. . Basically Waybig isnt 5-A, because he stomped Vilgax upon his introduction, who is 7-A. And yes this is exactly what you are saying, you can go ahead and read what I asked and what you answered.

>You mean the feat of him losing to Maltruent, which is pure and simple PIS and doesnt matter. So nah.

Yes it is pure and simple PIS, but Atomic X being erased by the Timebomb is not PIS despite several statements suggesting otherwise. In otherwords, feats>>>statements is something you stand by completely arbitrary.
 
When Ben goes back in time and meets George Washington, he tells him that Vilgax and Maltruent are 2 of the most powerful bad guys he has ever faced.

Ben was most likely refering to amped Vilgax( Diagonax & Malgax) who is definitely among the strongest villians Ben has ever faced. Characters 5-A or higher Ben has fought are Vilgax with 3 different amps, Malware, Trumbipulor, Diagon, Garbage Monster, several Mutant To'kustars & Evil Way Big. So Maltruent being stated by Ben to be one of the most powerful bad guys Ben has faced would put Maltruent on their level.Maltruent has defeated Spanner and Atomic X who are both 5-A. Maltruent being 5-A is very consistently how he is being portrayed, his 5-A feats are in no shape or form an outliers.

Tl;dr Maltruent is portrayed and acknowledged as a special Chronosapien, by Ben who states that Maltruent is 1 of the most powerful villians he has ever fought. So Maltruant beating not one but 2 5-A characters are in no way outliers for him.
 
>1-Please stop downplaying, I will make it simple Atomic x didn't use Time manipulation against Malturant or to reverse the CTB than he doesn't have Time manipulation ability End of story.

Going with the assumption that takes the least amount of guesswork is absolutely not downplay. If anything, the opposite goes more to being wank. Also, your suggesting something that can destroy time can be, while in use, reverse with a time hax...

>- Atomic x didn't use EE because HE DOSN'T HAVE EE ABILITY THAT'S WHY, since Atomic x dosn't have the same abilityes like Alien x

Which is 100% pure speculation with nothing supporting that conclusion.

>So if it was the other way around, if Maltruent was repeatedly stated to be among the most powerful aliens in the series but all of his feats showcases him losing to the weakest aliens, would you ignore his feats or his statements?.

The statements, clearly. They'd be deemed as being unreliable if every time it's stated a fodder beats him.

>Maltruent has 0 previous feats before fighting fused Upgrade, so your nonsense about spike in power is just that, nonsense. Then he fights future Ben, Gwen and Ben's wife at the same time.

If beating a high level 7-A is his first feat, then there's no low end feat to compare it to. It wouldn't be the outlier then. That said, Epic already cleared things up while you were gone and 7-A Maltruent isnt an issue for me now since it doesn't matter to my argument.

>How does Maltruent casually one-shooting 7-A Upgrade Clockwork and then defeating 5-A Atomic X prove he isnt 5-A? It's not like casually stomping a character proves that you are the same tier as the character you stomped, that's complete utter nonsense.

It absolutely isn't nonsense. Your suggesting that someone who stomps a mountain level character has suddenly become legitimately strong enough to defeat a dwarf-star level character. Do you have any idea how ludicrously big the difference is from going from mountain level to dwarf star level? Thats jumping 13 entire tiers of power in a single instance and out of nowhere. You need an extremely good ******* explanatio for being able to do that and not treat it as a huge outlier.

And no, stomping a character does not make you a higher tier than them either automatically. You can be in the same tier and absolutely stomp another character. We have several characters here who are tiered like this despite the unholy number of stomps to their names.

> Going by the same logic, Diagon isnt 5-A, because he starts off with stomping 7-A or weaker characters and then defeats a 5-A characters with 0 amps or any explanation for his "jump in power"

2 wrongs dont make a right. Your just putting Diagon's rating in question now too by doing that.

> Basically Waybig isnt 5-A, because he stomped Vilgax upon his introduction, who is 7-A.

Ah yes lets act like Waybig didnt get any amps or more consistent feats later down the line besides when he appeared for the 1st time ever. Seriously dude?

>5:55 Atomic X and Alien X decide it yourself.

A fan-explanation video? Really now? I can see where your going with this (using this to post the author confirmation) and it doesn't prove anything. The Author statement said that Atomic X isn't omnipotent, not that Atomic X isn't stronger than Alien X. That's twisting context. And it was disagreed with literally in the answer right below it.

>So WOG confirms it isnt PIS, and literally nothing in the series implies Atomic X is stronger than Maltruent.

Besides being a fusion of Alien X. And being superior to aliens far superior to Maltruent.

Enough. With. The. Deflecting.

>Maltruent being 5-A is very consistently how he is being portrayed, his 5-A feats are in no shape or form an outliers.

He has a single 5-A feat, which is beating someone who's stronger than aliens that are much stronger than him. A contradiction in and of itself no matter what you say here. The number of non 5-A feats vastly outnumbers the single 5-A feat you can grant him here. So much so that its laughable you can consider him a 5-A at all.

All you have is Bens statement, which not only can mean a number of different things regarding Maltruent's status as a "powerful villain", but takes less priority than how he's actually portrayed. That, and Ben can very easily be overhyping him.

So no. 5-A is most definitely a clear cut outlier for him and he is not stronger than Atomic X. Nothing has changed from before when we decided this to now.
 
'>'The statements, clearly. They'd be deemed as being unreliable if every time it's stated a fodder beats him.

Ok, so since Maltruent is stated to be one of the most powerful enemies Ben has ever faced + Maltruant has defeated 2 5-A characters, that would mean such statements would be reliable.

> Ah yes lets act like Waybig didnt get any amps or more consistent feats later down the line besides when he appeared for the 1st time ever. Seriously dude?

Waybig never got an amp or anything that made him 5-A, what are you talking about? Im not talking about Ultimate Waybig. WayBig appeared in Ultimate Alien/ Alien Force 8 times, fighting 7-A or weaker characters everytime before he had a 5-A feat. No I'm not putting Diagon's rating in question, Diagon has beaten Waybig, Diagonax and Sir Gregos so his tier are the same or above theirs.

>Besides being a fusion of Alien X. And being superior to aliens far superior to Maltruent.

You have yet to provide any evidence of this other than headcanon.

>He has a single 5-A feat, which is beating someone who's stronger than aliens that are much stronger than him. A contradiction in and of itself no matter what you say here.

Maltruent stomped Atomic X and Spanner, both are 5-A. You have no clue what a contradiction means, what exactly does it contradict? Him fodderizing 7-A characters does not contradict him also fodderizing 5-A characters. Maltruent has 2 7-A feats and 2 5-A feats, not seeing how 2 vastly outnumbers 2. The number of non 5-A feats WayBig has vastly outnumbers the numbers of 5-A he has, guess WayBig isnt 5-A ? And yeah Ben not talking about raw power when saying Vilgax and Maltruent are the most powerful bad guys he has fought is just pure headcanon.. Going by Occams razor, he is talking about raw power. Since when did Ben overhype his enemies to such a degree?
 
>Ok, so since Maltruent is stated to be one of the most powerful enemies Ben has ever faced + Maltruant has defeated 2 5-A characters, that would mean such statements would be reliable

I highly doubt this 2nd character is 5-A but we'll get to that later.

>Waybig never got an amp or anything that made him 5-A, what are you talking about? Im not talking about Ultimate Waybig. WayBig appeared in Ultimate Alien/ Alien Force 8 times, fighting 7-A or weaker characters everytime before he had a 5-A feat.

After Way Big was introduced into the franchise it was revealed at a later point that his species, you know the general species of To'kustar's, can effortlessly destroy planets . That means even the average To'Kustar is 5-A. This new information on Way Big would be considered "an amp". New feats & new informaton that we did not have on Way Big at the time but were given later. That and his Malware feat.

An entire species being able to casually destroy planets gives Way Big the bigger number of 5-A feats than the 7-A feats he had before that was revealed. Unless you want to pivot and argue Way Big is weaker than the average To'Kustar.

>You have yet to provide any evidence of this other than headcanon.

If common sense is headcanon now, then sure. Especially for the fusion topic.

>Maltruent stomped Atomic X and Spanner, both are 5-A.

Uh, Maltruent abused his time powers to defeat Ken. He even had to time-freeze Spanner and threaten to kill him when in that state to force Ben and Rook to surrender. He is absolutely not 5-A for beating someone using haxes. So that just leaves him with the supposed 1 5-A feat you like to claim he has, which is a PIS.

>Him fodderizing 7-A characters does not contradict him also fodderizing 5-A characters.

It does when you have yet to provide a single thing to support going through massive upon massive spikes in tier. Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence and you lack that. Going from fodderizing 7-As and then randomly jumping to fodderizing a 5-A with no explanation is the epitome of an outlier.
 
> I highly doubt this 2nd character is 5-A but we'll get to that later.

He is

'>'This new information on Way Big would be considered "an amp". New feats & new informaton that we did not have on Way Big at the time but were given later. That and his Malware feat.

New feats & statements =//= an amp/ powerup, unless you consider statements a powerup, which they are not. I'm not denying Way Big is 5-A, I'm just saying he was never amped / powered up to become 5-A. We also got new information about Maltruent, about him being more powerful than guys like Malware, so not seeing how the same reasoning doesnt apply.

>If common sense is headcanon now, then sure. Especially for the fusion topic.

Common sense also tells us "the most powerful bad guy" refers to raw power considering amped Vilgax only uses raw power. Common sense also tells us that the last villian in an action series should be among the most powerful villians, especially if he is stated to be one of the most powerful villians and has 2 feats showcasing he is one of the most powerful villians.

>Uh, Maltruent abused his time powers to defeat Ken.

We can see Ken physically struggling to break free of Maltruant's grasp, and hear him talk, meaning Maltruent was not using his time power to physically restrain Ken, until Maltruent went to Ben and Rook. In the next episode we even see Ken's head is hurting,and him being so injured he needs to be carried away by future Ben. Maltruent freezing Ken wouldnt had injured him, as we can clearly see future Ben, his wife and Gwen being completely fine despite haven been frozen for much longer. The only way Maltruent could have injured 5-A Spanner is by being 5-A, Maltruent does not have any ability that negates durability.

> Going from fodderizing 7-As and then randomly jumping to fodderizing a 5-A with no explanation is the epitome of an outlier.

It would be an outlier, had he not physically beaten and injured 2 5-A characters and been stated to be one of the most powerful villians in the series, and the last villian in an action series. Outlier do not apply to characters at the top of the food chain of a series.
 
>your suggesting something that can destroy time can be, while in use, reverse with a time hax.

1- yes because that's what clockwork did lamo and that's still dosn't explain why he didn't use his Time manipulation against Malturant

>Which is 100% pure speculation with nothing supporting that conclusion.

2- yes it does, Alien x does have EE, the fact that Atomic x didn't even try to use EE against the CTB already proves he doesn't have EE like alien x
 
@Kukui according to your logic anime Mewtwo isn't 5-B because he fodderized Ash and his Pokémon. Also I can agree with you on "downgrading everyone to 7-A" after all that nice feat you mentioned there for Way Big isn't canon so you might be able to help me out, also Way Big has a High 6-B feat so once the tier 6 upgrades fall in place and DJW's statement about Atomix is debunked then everything falls into place because then Maltruant stomps low 6-B's and is on par with 6-B's such as Atomix and Atomic-X.
 
Well this thread just devolved into scaling issues again.

Is anybody willing to contact Liger about this?
 
Actually I don't know why doing a thread about Atomic x abilityes it's clearly obvious that Atomic x dosn't have the same abilityes like Alien x, he didn't use Time manipulation against Malturant or to reverse the CTB effect he didn't use EE to Stop the CTB
 
@Kukui are you fine with me applying all changes discussed in this thread except scaling Alien X above the time bomb? (so EE for the time bomb and multiversal durability and EE resistance for the Omnitrix)
 
Greenshifter said:
@Kukui are you fine with me applying all changes discussed in this thread except scaling Alien X above the time bomb? (so EE for the time bomb and multiversal durability and EE resistance for the Omnitrix)
Click to expand...
Why asking him thus question? He would obviously disagree, he just keep downplaying alien x using just Head cannon with 0 proof and evidence
 
Greenshifter said:
@Kukui are you fine with me applying all changes discussed in this thread except scaling Alien X above the time bomb? (so EE for the time bomb and multiversal durability and EE resistance for the Omnitrix)
Click to expand...
Why asking him thus question? He would obviously disagree, he just keep downplaying alien x using just Head cannon with 0 proof and evidence
 
Greenshifter said:
@DD Mrluk added it to make a match with Atomic-X.
Should I make a new thread to discuss Atomic-X's abilities?
Click to expand...
I actually only added it as Atomic X has the same abilities as Alien X
 
Please say so on this thread then https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/4123659, but weren't you one of the main supporters of downgrading Atomic-X because he had no time manipulation? Maybe I'm just imagining stuff.

Edit: You were the OP but didn't give that much input, I think the main cause for problems here is that Kukui wants to also scale resistances between Alien X and Atomic-X and you don't.
 
>New feats & statements =//= an amp/ powerup, unless you consider statements a powerup, which they are not.

They are. They just have less priority than actual feats. Statements can absolutely be used as amps, provided that feats don't contradict them and deem them unreliable. And in this case, we're talking about statements about a general species of what an alien can do. That is far more consistent than the few lower end feats Way Big had previously, especially when this gives new information on what his species can do.

>I'm not denying Way Big is 5-A, I'm just saying he was never amped / powered up to become 5-A.

Your really not understanding this. The statements on To'kustar's are Way Big's power ups. The new info we got on To'kustar's takes Way Big, an alien we had 0 info about with his lower end feats previously, to a new level of power of what he can actually do. Why? Because even the weaker members of his species can do feats far beyond what he previously displayed. His species feats >>> Way Bigs previous feats as the consistent display of feats for him.

>We also got new information about Maltruent, about him being more powerful than guys like Malware, so not seeing how the same reasoning doesnt apply

False equivalance. Performing random feats outside of your consistent portrayls doesnt give you "new information" about you. In Way Bigs case, again, we are given new context and lore about what his general species is capable of accomplishing, which becomes the priority of consistency for Way Big.

For Malware to be given amps/powerups, he'd have to be established as having done training, gaining new stronger forms, or be given new details about his strength as the story progresses. Not jumping in with a random high level feat out of nowhere. This is how we seperate legitimate upgrades from outlier feats.

>Common sense also tells us "the most powerful bad guy" refers to raw power considering amped Vilgax only uses raw power.

Or Ben was just bullshiting when making that statement. Or Maltruents so powerful because of his tactics as a villain. Characters commonly make statements like these, but without some specific evidence, it's taken as a grain of salt.

>We can see Ken physically struggling to break free of Maltruant's grasp, and hear him talk, meaning Maltruent was not using his time power to physically restrain Ken, until Maltruent went to Ben and Rook.

That takes away the point of him even being 5-A from this "feat" then. Maltruent was doing that for like 3 seconds and then froze him with his time hax. Why need to do that if he could physically restrain him?

>In the next episode we even see Ken's head is hurting,and him being so injured he needs to be carried away by future Ben. Maltruent freezing Ken wouldnt had injured him, as we can clearly see future Ben, his wife and Gwen being completely fine despite haven been frozen for much longer. The only way Maltruent could have injured 5-A Spanner is by being 5-A

Being frozen in time basically makes your body entirely limp. And Spanner was thrown around like a rag doll while being frozen. It would make sense on why he'd be fatigue. Making someone tired out from fighting is not a feat of harming them.

Also, im starting to question why Ken is even considered 5-A in the first place. On his page, Ken is 5-A for fighting Dr. Animo. But Dr. Animo is 5-A for fighting Four Arms 10,000. And Four Arms 10,000 is 5-A for harming Future Kevin 11,000. Yet, Future Kevin is 5-A for...fighting Four Arms 10,000? Where is the 5-A feat being used to scale here? This is literally nothing but circular reasoning.

>Outlier do not apply to characters at the top of the food chain of a series.

And it's a good thing he isn't a top of the food chain character in Ben 10.

>yes because that's what clockwork did lamo and that's still dosn't explain why he didn't use his Time manipulation against Malturant

Clockwork reversed time after the time bomb did it's job, not while it was in use. And again, read what I said before. There are different applications of time hax and as far as time ripples go, IIRC Alien X in general has no time manipulation in that manner.

>yes it does, Alien x does have EE, the fact that Atomic x didn't even try to use EE against the CTB already proves he doesn't have EE like alien x

Or, again, it wasnt used because it wasnt strong enough to defeat the timebombs EE. Your assuming him not using it is him not having it in the first place, which is a bigger leap in logic than just concluding it was weaker EE. Your relying on this nonexistent notion of Atomic X not having the same abilities as an alien being used to make what Atomic X is in order to keep an upgrade alive.

> according to your logic anime Mewtwo isn't 5-B because he fodderized Ash and his Pokémon.

Mewtwo isn't 5-B because of anything like that. He's 5-B for blatantly fighting 5-B pokemon, which are the consistent feats he has. >

> Also I can agree with you on "downgrading everyone to 7-A" after all that nice feat you mentioned there for Way Big isn't canon

I seriously doubt its not canon or else it wouldnt have been accepted in the first place.
 
The future aliens scaling from 5-A came from Kevin 11,000 taking hits from Way Big 10,000, Four Arms fought and harmed Kevin 11,000, Future Dr. Animo fought and harmed Four Arms 10,000, and Buzz Shock 10,000 fought and harmed Future Dr. Animo who is one of Ben's weakest aliens.
 
Then the 5-A justifications need some serious revising because right now, the 5-A feat they scale from is mentioned nowhere on their pages.

Still, I continue to doubt a 5-A Ken Tennyson without his omnitrix. Spanner mostly relies on robotic machinery to fight (as seen in the episode with fighting Maltruant) and without his omnitrix, I have a hard time believing Ken is physically 5-A. Especially when Liger is vehemently opposed to making most human characters in Ben 10 even physically 7-A.
 
>Clockwork reversed time after the time bomb did it's job, not while it was in use

1- what the hell you are talking about? the CTB was still in use .

> Or, again, it wasnt used because it wasnt strong enough to defeat the timebombs EE


2-Stop saying "OR" please this won't get you anywhere, the fact that Atomic x had to punch the CTB without even TRYING to use EE against it already proves that he dosn't have EE ability end of story if Atomic x did knew that his EE ability wouldn't work than he wouldn't try to punch the CTB anyway since it won't work
 
>Your really not understanding this. The statements on To'kustar's are Way Big's power ups.

I am understanding this, but you arent, a feat is not a powerup, a powerup is something like a transformation or a sudden increase in power. This is all just semantics so it doesnt really matter.

>False equivalance. Performing random feats outside of your consistent portrayls doesnt give you "new information" about you.

Well, the game might not even be canon in the first place, the events of the game are never mentioned ever in any of the series and the game is never stated to be canon.. It's even listed as non-canon on Ben 10 wiki

>Or Ben was just bullshiting when making that statement. Or Maltruents so powerful because of his tactics as a villain.

Prove Ben was bulshitting, prove Ben was talking about his tactics as a villian. Occam's razor is on my side, Ben doesnt commonly make statements like these about tactics, we dont assume characters are talking about tactics or are bullshitting in other series like say Dragon Ball when mentioning how powerful someone is, and I dont recall anyone ever substituting tactics with powerful in Ben 10. this is just dishonest bullshit headcanon, unless you want to do this across every series where someone is stated to be more powerful than someone else

'>'Why need to do that if he could physically restrain him?

Umm obviously because he didnt want Ken to talk, not because Ken was strong enough to break free? Physically restraining him wouldnt have prevented that. Ken was trying to convince Ben and Rook to not care about him and go after Maltruent instead, which is obviously not something Maltruent would want, Ben has Alien X after all and Maltruent was in a hurry to go back in time with the Time Beasts. By freezing Ken, he takes 0 risk of Ken convincing Ben and Rook. It's the classic "dont worry about me, just get him" self sacrificing hostage trope.

>Being frozen in time basically makes your body entirely limp. And Spanner was thrown around like a rag doll while being frozen.

Ben, his wife and Gwen were also thrown around like ragdolls while frozen, even more so than Spanner. They were being thrown around for minutes, none of them were fatigued when unfrozen. Ken is 5-A for the reason explained by EpicCookie, and Spanner's entire suit is made by Professor Paradox.

>And it's a good thing he isn't a top of the food chain character in Ben 10.

Only if you ignore his 2 5-A feats and Ben's statements.
 
@Door Wait Wayne said it's canon while Derrick said it isn't, can you give me a source? Haha I'm having a field day today.
 
Shit, I mixed up Destroy All Aliens with Cosmic Destruction. But still, the game is never once stated to be canon, and the events of the game arent mentioned in the main series ever, so we have 0 reason to believe it is canon.
 
Most people who believe in it's canonicity say that since Paradox mentions Vilgax Attacks, the "sequel" Cosmic Destruction that is written by the same author should also be canon.
 
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