Gilad_Hyperstar
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Yes, but Perfected UI Goku, Jiren and such are all stronger than SSJ Broly. I didn't say SSJ Broly = SSB Goku. But Perfected UI Goku will scale above SSJ Gogeta as it's still above Broly
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Chou SSJ Vegeta MFTL+ upgrade
- Thread starter GodlyCharmander
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- dragon ball vegeta (chou)
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GodlyCharmander
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- #162
Why? You haven't made an argument for this yet.
SSJ Broly >>>> SSB Goku, and Vegeta
SSJ Gogeta > SSJ Broly
How does UI come into this equation?
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Because Whis outright stated that no one in the universe is stronger than Goku and Vegeta Pre-Granolah wish
That would mean SSBE Vegeta > SSJ Broly and > SSJ Gogeta in Broly Saga
Perfected UI Goku is >>>>> SSBE based on how it completely stomped Moro 73, while SSBE Vegeta couldn't dent him at all
GodlyCharmander
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- #164
Gilad_Hyperstar
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There wasn't much of a time skip between ToP and Broly Saga. Goku couldn't use UI Sign or Perfected UI at will (as he only managed to do it in the Moro Saga), which is why in the movie he resorted to fuse with Vegeta instead of relying on Ultra Instinct. Goku also did better against SSJ Broly when using SSB (even though he was much weaker), then him using SSB against Jiren before he went UI, who not only matched Jiren, but overpowered him
That greatly inplies that ToP Perfected UI Goku is > SSJ Broly in the manga, and thus > SSJ Gogeta as well. That applies to Jiren as well
That greatly inplies that ToP Perfected UI Goku is > SSJ Broly in the manga, and thus > SSJ Gogeta as well. That applies to Jiren as well
GodlyCharmander
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- #166
They did train regardless, so you cannot backscale them.
Also,
"did better"? That's subjective when it was clearly 2v1, and Goku would've been curbstomped had Vegeta not been on his side.
Jiren and ToP MUI are off the chart for me, I'm sorry. I agree with everything else.
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Yeah, personally I also disagree with them scaling. Goku trained with Merus for 6 months. There's absolutely no reason to backscale him in my view.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Goku trained with Merus after they fought Broly. Them scaling to SSJ Gogeta has nothing to do with the Moro Saga
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I'm talking about ToP Goku. Moro Goku is pretty much the same as beginning of Granolah Arc Goku, so I'm fine with him scaling of course. I'm only against ToP Goku scaling.
GodlyCharmander
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Well, do I need to do a different CRT to apply the scaling on my blog? I updated to match Gilad's suggestion (except ToP arc), so it should be good to go.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Yes but the scaling doesn't come from Granolah Saga Goku
- 10,901
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Is that not when he was confirmed to be (alogside Vegeta) the strongest mortal known to Whis? You can't scale ToP Goku to that because he has advanced since then.
GodlyCharmander
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- #173
He says Jiren and MUI ToP Goku should scale to SSJ Broly because SSB Goku did better against Broly than he did against Jiren.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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But that was not what I was talking about. I was talking about scaling PUI Goku from ToP/Broly Saga above SSJ Broly, and above SSJ Gogeta as well.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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What I basically said is that the gap that was shown between SSB Goku and Jiren is bigger than the gap between SSB Goku and SSJ Broly, meaning that with PUI he wouls scale above Broly and SSJ Gogeta
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Broly constantly got stronger during that fight, Goku did well against him, but was eventually overwhelmed and left with no choice but to fuse. Broly was even advancing against Gogeta himself, which is probably the reason he went SSB in the first place. Not necessarily because he was losing in SSJ, but because Broly's Reactive Power Level is so insane that you need to overwhelm it quickly with a massive power gap.
My point is, Goku can probably downscale from a weaker version of Broly, but it doesn't seem reliable to me to scale him to Broly's peak, and certainly not to Gogeta.
GodlyCharmander
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- #177
I'd like to tackle that. Is another CRT necessary for the scaling itself?
GodlyCharmander
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- #178
If we don't consider his insane RPL, then we'll be saying SSJ Gogeta is only 50x stronger than Base Vegeta, who could keep up with Base Broly.
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We can't NOT consider it, though. Broly went from weaker than base Vegeta to stronger than God Vegeta in like a minute, lol.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Broly was using Wrathful against SSG Vegeta and Goku, and went SSJ on top of it
I never said to scale him to LSSJ Broly or Gogeta Blue, but rather to SSJ Broly and SSJ Gogeta (before both transformed again)
Gilad_Hyperstar
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That's because he activated his Ikari form. That was well established in the movie
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His RPL was the main factor there. Ikari is just Great Ape in humanoid form, aka. Only a 10x amp. A 10x amp wouldn't take you anywhere near SSG.
Even if we say that Ikari isn't only 10x, and is actually an insane SSG level amp, Broly's RPL would still be nuts as it brought Broly from Base Vegeta level to SSJ Vegeta level insanely quickly.
Likewise, it brought his Ikari form from SSG level to nigh-SSB level just as quickly. And once again allowed him to keep up with SSJ Gogeta when base Gogeta was in turn keeping up with Broly moments prior.
That's 3 instances of Broly bridging a SSJ level gap extremely quickly, so I still find scaling his peak SSJ (I never even mentioned LSSJ, btw) to Goku and Vegeta unreliable.
I don't even find the argument that they weren't struggling against him particularly convincing tbh. Goku and Vegeta never even consider fusion unless there's quite literally no alternative. Here they did not only considered it, but actively fled the battlefield to have Vegeta learn it, lol.
Yeah, no, idk about everyone else's opinion on this, but I personally disagree with Goku and Vegeta scaling.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Goku and
What says that it was a 10 times amp?
Base Gogeta didn't actually did anything to Broly. All he did was dodge some attacks and that's it. Even Blue Goku and Vegeta did more that that compared to Base Gogeta
I never meant them scaling to LSSJ Broly (and even then, Broly was said in his LSSJ form to maybe be at the level of GoDs, that Jiren already surpassed). I meant his regular SSJ transformation
GodlyCharmander
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- #184
Can we ... not discuss this here? This has little to do with the OP. Since this was accepted, I believe I should make another CRT to address the scaling, and everyone can discuss there.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Sure. This can be discussed later I guess
GodlyCharmander
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Aight, closing.
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