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Charlemagne's Joeyuse Ordre Downgrade

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Kisaragi_Megumi

Kisaragi_Megumi

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Alright, this has been bugging me off for long time and this time i try my best here since this is my first CRT ever

So basically: Charlie Joeyuse Ordre tier are labeled as "Low 1-C, possibly 1-C" for clashed with Karna's Vasavi Shakti, however the justification of it are really weak as it only shown holded VS briefly and we even see it overpowered Joeyuse Ordre and exploded


Charlie even said this: "It couldn't reach him, damn it!"
And another thing is that Karna was empowered by Rex Magnus

So what i'm proposing here is take the feat of Joeyuse Ordre clashed with Vasavi Shakti as Outlier and downgrade it to Low 6-B
 
I agree. Wasn't it the not-one-per-summoning version too? the A++ ranked NP that gawain tanked
 
Idk, holding a Low 1-C attack, even for a while, sounds impressive enough to be rated.

Tho, if there is extra context saying that points it to be an outlier, I suppose that would be.

Neutral for now. Mind explaining that thing about Karna being empowered by Magnus Rex btw?
 
Eh, personally I'd say something like "At least Low 6-B, possibly Low 1-C to 1-C" makes more sense. Even if he was overpowered by the attack, he was able to momentarily clash with it. Treating it like an outlier isn't exactly appropriate, it seems more like tossing around that term where it's not needed.
 
TypeOU said:
I agree. Wasn't it the not-one-per-summoning version too? the A++ ranked NP that gawain tanked
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I believe so
Newendigo said:
Idk, holding a Low 1-C attack, even for a while, sounds impressive enough to be rated.
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It only briefly clashed and got overpowered easily
Heck, we could say the same thing to Balmung which is also holding off the Low 1-C attack, yet we'll never treat it
Newendigo said:
Tho, if there is extra context saying that points it to be an outlier, I suppose that would be.

Neutral for now. Mind explaining that thing about Karna being empowered by Magnus Rex btw?
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It's part of when Charlie dialogue after the scene, i can't explain it well since my memories are bit fuzzy here
CloverDragon03 said:
Eh, personally I'd say something like "At least Low 6-B, possibly Low 1-C to 1-C" makes more sense. Even if he was overpowered by the attack, he was able to momentarily clash with it. Treating it like an outlier isn't exactly appropriate, it seems more like tossing around that term where it's not needed.
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I disagree, Charlie even said that he can't reach him so that give us a evidence on how Joeyuse Ordre can't be scaled to VS even if it was momentarily clash
 
Veloxt1r0kore said:
I disagree, Charlie even said that he can't reach him so that give us a evidence on how Joeyuse Ordre can't be scaled to VS even if it was momentarily clash
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Having it as just Low 6-B isn't accurate to this though, otherwise he would've been utterly overwhelmed and killed. Momentarily holding it back is enough to warrant a possibly, with the justification being something like: "Momentarily clashed with Karna's Vasavi Shakti, though he is overall inferior and was soon overwhelmed"
 
I don't know about Balmung and Balmung is completely irrelevant as far as I'm concerned

The thing is, especially as far as Tier 1 attacks are concerned, momentarily clashing with them, even if you're overall weaker, should net you a possibly rating. A Tier 6 attack is completely incapable of that
 
It's relevant since Balmung is holding back VS even longer than Joeyuse Ordre, yet we never give it "possibly Low 1-C", see the problem now?

Again i'm not selling on that
 
It's from Apocrypha

About giving Joeyuse Ordre "Low 6-B, Possibly Low 1-C", i'm not selling into that considering what has been shown so far
 
Well then we have problem, i still disagree about giving Joeyuse Ordre "Possibly Low 1-C" because the way Charlie said he can't reach him and VS overpowered it rather easily
Outlier is sound best and if you still insist then i don't know what to say so i'll let the others judge here
 
Okay looking back, I changed my mind and I'm willing to agree on it being an outlier, but for different reasons.

Essentially, Balmung would be superior to Joeyuse Ordre since it could hold back VS for longer, but Balmung itself is actually equal to Fafnir's breath, which is flat-out Low 6-B (it was calculated as such), and since that Low 6-B calc is the basis for all of the A++ Noble Phantasms (like Excalibur, for example), it wouldn't make sense for all of them to get a possibly Low 1-C to 1-C

So yeah, this can be considered an outlier, and Joeyuse Ordre can be downgraded to Low 6-B
 
Agree, tho the reason why it was able to be held back in the first place is probably due to servant limit, it's classify as anti divine which is the low 1C 1C part but would otherwise just be anti army with massively greater range (as apocrypha show by it mere activation) so the thing probably wasn't as powerful against Balmung or Charles Np as it's against god (atleast for servant form).
 
If the consensus here is to agree with the downgrade, it can probably be applied. Would it be best to add a footnote explanation regarding our reasons at the bottom of the relevant character profile page in our wiki?
 
Antvasima said:
If the consensus here is to agree with the downgrade, it can probably be applied. Would it be best to add a footnote explanation regarding our reasons at the bottom of the relevant character profile page in our wiki?
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This makes sense. It doesn't need to be long either, just something like:

Note: Charlemagne's Joeyuse Ordre momentarily clashing with Karna's Vasavi Shakti is considered an outlier.
 
Well, you should preferably add a bit more explanation than that, if there is any relevant additional information about your reasoning available.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Okay looking back, I changed my mind and I'm willing to agree on it being an outlier, but for different reasons.

Essentially, Balmung would be superior to Joeyuse Ordre since it could hold back VS for longer, but Balmung itself is actually equal to Fafnir's breath, which is flat-out Low 6-B (it was calculated as such), and since that Low 6-B calc is the basis for all of the A++ Noble Phantasms (like Excalibur, for example), it wouldn't make sense for all of them to get a possibly Low 1-C to 1-C

So yeah, this can be considered an outlier, and Joeyuse Ordre can be downgraded to Low 6-B
Click to expand...

I would like to note on the Balmung matching VS, it was a continuous release of Balmung that only Sieg was capable of doing and was boosted by a Command Spell. It wouldn't scale to any other A+ or higher NP. Which to my knowledge only Sieg and living Siegfried could. Adding to this, continuous release of Balmung could also match the Anti-Country NP of Brahmastra Kundala.

That said I do believe Charlemagne is an outlier, unless or until more evidence to the contrary shows up.
 
Okay, guess we need staffs approval for this downgrade and after that we are good to go
Mageman460 said:
That said I do believe Charlemagne is an outlier, unless or until more evidence to the contrary shows up.
Click to expand...
From what Type said, Gawain tanked Joeyuse Ordre, which make the low 1-c Joeyuse Ordre doesn't make any sense at all
 
Vasavi Shakti keeps it's Low 1-C rating, no?.

Although, this proves Extella Arjuna is leagues and leagues above Charlemagne, his Full power Pashupata was pretty even with Karna's Vasavi.

I agree with the downgrade aswell
 
Veloxt1r0kore said:
From what Type said, Gawain tanked Joeyuse Ordre, which make the low 1-c Joeyuse Ordre doesn't make any sense at all
Click to expand...
he tanked Vasavi Shakti, my point was more so that extra vasavi shakti is weaker/a weaker use, which makes sense since it's lower ranked
 
God900 said:
Vasavi Shakti keeps it's Low 1-C rating, no?.

Although, this proves Extella Arjuna is leagues and leagues above Charlemagne, his Full power Pashupata was pretty even with Karna's Vasavi.

I agree with the downgrade aswell
Click to expand...
Yeah, VS keeps it's Low 1-C rating
 
Meh sure.

But also, I wonder, does the other person always attack at low 1c level? If so, I don't see the point of downgrading since they held them off for a second or so before getting overpowered. Still downscales. AlsoIt's kinda odd for me how we always assume characters attack at that one level and never lower.
 
Thank you for helping out, Confluctor.

Also, if this revision is accepted, whoever applies it, please remember to add a footnote explanation to the page.
 
Was asked to comment here. The downgrade seems fine, though I had the same thoughts as CloverDragon.
 
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