Chaos Gods Downgrade

[ZacharyGrossman273]

First of all, the fact that Tzeentch is stated to have a realm which "spirals through nine dimensions at once" implies universes, not amount of actual directions it moved in. Second, yes, they can navigate 12-D space. However, navigating a higher dimension is not the same as existing within it. It's like saying a time machine is High 3-A.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

The difference is that they are able to comprehend said 12-D space

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Comprehend it. Not exist within it.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Being able to comprehend and navigate in a 12-D Space is enough to qualify for 12-D

 

[Aparajita]

Comprehend it. Not exist within it.

Completely Comprehend and Navigate.

Tzeentch's realm, known as the Crystal Labyrinth, twists through nine dimensions. It is important to note that this is only mentioned for Tzeentch, and not the other gods, despite all being on a similar playing field in terms of power. This is because, as is repeatedly stated, the Chaos Gods do not care about physical dimensions. They are beyond time, space, and all physics. They are the antithesis to what is "real". Tzeentch's realm is not nine-dimensional because that is the limit of his power, but because it echoes his sacred number, which is nine. This is one of many reasons that our current ratings for the Chaos Gods can be considered an immense lowball.


"Of all the outlandish landscapes of the Warp, Tzeentch's domain is the most bizarre and incomprehensible. His realm is woven from the raw fabric of magic. The Crystal Labyrinth, as it is known, sits upon an immense, iridescent plateau, its presence felt across all of the Daemonic realms. Shifting avenues made from crystals of every colour criss-cross Tzeentch's realm as it contorts through nine dimensions at once." - Codex: Chaos Daemons (6th ed.), pg 12

"At the center of the maze, hidden from those without the lunatic insight to find it, stands the Impossible Fortress. Twisted crystal spires and towers of blue and pink flame writhe and burst from the majestic fortress' core. These exist for only a heartbeat before they shimmer and disappear, only to be replaced by new and ever more maddening architecture. Gates, windows and beckoning doorways yawn like hungry mouths in a tornado of dislocated angles before shutting moments later. The nature of the Warp is encapsulated within the Impossible Fortress, for physical space and time are useless concepts here...

...Only the Lords of Change, the greatest of Tzeentch's Daemons, can think their way through the secret paths to the inner sanctum; the Hidden Library where the Great Conspirator concocts his eternal plots.

The Hidden Library is infinite in dimensions and constantly folds in upon itself under the weight of its own density. It contains every scrap of knowledge, every thought of every creature across space and time." - Codex: Chaos Daemons (6th ed.), pg 13


9D is nowhere near the extent of The Chaos God's power.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

1. The 9-D quote very clearly means actual dimensions. The Warp is stated to be a place where multiple universes are created and destroyed with every stray thought and is connected to millions of outside universes. On top of this, Tzeentch's realm is mentioned to have geometry that is not fully possible to perceive from a human perspective. Twisting through nine universes wouldn't make sense.

2. Being able to navigate and comprehend 12-D space implies 12 directions of movement.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

1) Well... Yes, but there is the minor issue of... Y'know, the OTHER CHAOS GODS, who have specifically been called 8-D, being comparable in power.

2) Navigate? Not really. Comprehend? Kind of.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Tzeentch IIRC is obsessed with the number 9, hence his realm is 9-dimensional. It's not a limit to his power, it's just what he does, same with the other Chaos Gods having different dimensions in their realms.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Well, yeah, but it makes him 9-D even though the other gods have specifically been called 8-D.

 

[Aparajita]

Well, yeah, but it makes him 9-D even though the other gods have specifically been called 8-D.

The Chaos Gods are not bound by the concepts like dimensions. If Slaanesh has 6 dimensions, it's because She wishes it to have six, nothing more and nothing less.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

...Chaos Gods are not 1-A.

 

[Aparajita]

The Hidden Library is infinite in dimensions and constantly folds in upon itself under the weight of its own density. It contains every scrap of knowledge, every thought of every creature across space and time." - Codex: Chaos Daemons (6th ed.), pg 13

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I was going to post this earlier, but I was out all day, so there was a delay.

Anyway, the Chaos Gods are the Warp. The two have become entirely indivisible. If Warp Space itself is a certain level of existence, the Chaos Gods scale to that, for they embody different portions of it.

Though yes there is an obvious difference between knowing "this is most likely what this space is and I can probably navigate it in some manner" and "I possess 12 dimensions in which to move".

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Azathoth.

 

[DarkLK]

Being able to comprehend and navigate in a 12-D Space is enough to qualify for 12-D

lol

 

[Jockey-1337]

FB/AOS Chaos Gods have some new feats:


'It's coming,' Tegrus said, his voice almost shrill. He thrashed, as if trying to free himself from the clutches of something only he could see. A moment later, a dull boom echoed up out of the cistern and washed over them. Gardus felt his heart pause in its rhythm, and gasped, clutching his chest. Nauseated, he saw several Stormcast fall to their knees, retching. The daemons had stopped their advance and fallen silent, seemingly expectant. Another boom, like the collision of distant stars. Gardus tasted blood. He'd bitten his tongue. Tallon shrieked loud and long, every feather on the gryphhound's neck stiff and flared in fear. 'What is that?' he asked, already knowing the answer. 'The Lord of Flies himself,' Morbus said. The Lord-Relictor strode past them towards the edge of the cistern. Gardus rose quickly and followed him, after waving the others back. They knew enough to hold their positions, unless otherwise ordered. Through the ragged shroud of smoke, Gardus saw what lay below the Inevitable Citadel, at the heart of Nurgle's garden. Almost immediately, he closed his eyes and turned away, unable to bear it. It was impossible to describe. Impossible to comprehend. To his eyes, it was a wallowing swamp of black stars and dying worlds, of rotting galaxies alive with immense, writhing shapes as large as nebulas. Cosmic maggots, gnawing at the roots of infinity. Galactic plagues, eating away at the very flesh of existence, reducing all that was to leprous ruin in their unending hunger. It was a dark mirror of Azyr, corrupted, reduced, strangled. All glory vanished, all hope quashed. A thunder of screams echoed upwards, driving him back. A million million voices, raised up in anguish and despair. Forever crying out for that which would never come. Again, the world shook. The reverberations were the death knell of the worlds below, Gardus knew, though he could not say how. Worlds claimed by Nurgle, realms older than Azyr or Ghyran, now broken and ground into filth. He felt sick. He wanted to see the clean stars of Azyr once more, even if it meant enduring the Reforging. But still the voices cried out, crying for aid, for him. Garradan… help us… It hurts… why does it hurt… Everything is burning… help us… Garradan… Garradan… Help us… The voices assailed him from every side, filling his head, squeezing his heart. He staggered, and felt Morbus' hand steadying him. Another tolling of the death knell. Down below, something began to crawl out of the black heart of that cancerous infinity. It was no shape, and all shapes. Fat and thin, a plume of smoke, a puddle of oil, spreading ever upwards. There were eyes in the smoke, as round as cold, dead suns, and teeth that stretched in a grin as wide as the horizon. Fingers like comets clutched at the void, as the Lord of All Things stirred from his manse, and began the long, arduous climb to his garden. Moons crumbled beneath that impossible bulk, and stars were snuffed out. 'He is coming,' Morbus said, hollowly. 'An honour, of sorts.' Gardus closed his eyes. 'He is coming for me. I escaped once before. I should not have. My fate was written the day I stepped through the Gates of Dawn.' Gardus stepped away from the edge of the cistern. He did not wish to see the swamp of dead universes swirling below, or the thing rising from within them. The thing that had been trying to claim his soul since before the burning of Demesnus Harbour, in one way or another. He looked up, and saw the others approaching. 'Stay back,' he roared. He looked at Morbus. 'Keep them back. Keep them from seeing that, if you can.' 'Soon that will not be an option.' Gardus shook his head. The ground trembled beneath his feet. It felt as if the garden were set to tear itself apart. Perhaps Nurgle had grown bored, and had decided to reshape it all again. 'Much is demanded―' he said. '―of those to whom much is given,' Morbus said. 'Lead them to glory, Morbus,' Gardus said softly. 'Temper them, as I might have. Be the light that guides them.' He took a breath and stepped to the edge of the cistern. His hands tightened on his weapons. He wanted to run. To leave this place. To see the stars again. But the voices cried out, and he could not turn away from such pain. He would not. Whatever the cost.'What do you think you are doing?' 'If Nurgle wants me, I will go to him. I will carry the light of Sigmar's wrath into the dark, as the only the faithful can.' Morbus laughed softly and extended his staff, blocking Gardus. 'I think not.' 'What?' 'I think I have waited all of my life for this one moment,' Morbus said. 'I was ancient before I heard Sigmar's call. And I have only grown more ancient still in the centuries since. I am old, and I am tired, but I have one storm yet left in me. A storm bolstered by the souls of the living and the dead alike.' He looked at Gardus, lightning trailing from his eyes. 'I think you are wrong, my friend. This is not your doom. It is mine.' 'Morbus,' Gardus began. Morbus flicked a finger and Gardus was hurled backwards by a flash of celestial energies. He struggled to his feet, smoke rising from his armour. 'I know now why I came here with you. In death, we prove ourselves worthy of life. The fifth canticle.' Morbus unclasped the remains of his cloak and let it crumple to the ground. He cast aside his staff. 'Our souls are pure, and by their light is darkness banished. I hold an army within me now. You are the sword. Grymn is the shield. But I am become the hammer stroke, which puts an end to the conflict.' He stepped to the edge of the great, cosmic cistern. He stared down into untold abysses of foulness, into the very eyes of the Lord of All Things. And Morbus Stormwarden laughed. He spread his arms. Lightning swelled out around him, melting the stones to slag, and driving back the mass of daemons which surrounded the remaining Stormcasts. 'This is why we are here, Gardus. This is the first blow, and the last. This is the settling of a question millennia old.' Gardus lunged, reaching for him. Morbus leapt. He fell into the black, a shining comet of azure. The rising presence paused in its ascent. Something that might have been a hand, miles across and as wide as a universe, reached up to intercept the light. Fingers closed. The light was gone. Snuffed. Nurgle screamed. The light returned. A spark, at first. Then a blazing column of fire and heat, spearing upwards through the black, pursued by the agonised screams of a daemon-god. Twenty souls, thirty, more, all those who'd fallen in this diseased realm, rising up, at last, to the forges of Azyr. The light swept out as it rose, filling the amphitheatre. Daemons screamed as they were reduced to floating motes of ash. Everything wavered and came apart, reduced to shards of darkness. The light grew brighter and brighter, until it was the only thing Gardus could see. He felt a wrenching sensation deep within him. And then he was rushing upwards, carried on wings of lightning and thunder. Below him, he could see the darkness returning in the wake of the light's ascent. He could hear the enraged bellows of a consciousness as old as the stars. Neither Nurgle nor his garden could be so easily destroyed. But they could be hurt. They could be reminded of why they had once feared the storm. And should do so again. Reminded. Warned. Challenged. Who shall carry my light into the darkness? Sigmar's voice whispered. 'Only the faithful,' Gardus said. He closed his eyes, and let the light carry him home.Source: Hallowed Knights - Plague garden (Josh Reynolds).

 

[Antvasima]

Can you make that wall of text easier to read, by chopping it up into the most relevant segments?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Basically Nurgle's swamp is the size of multiple universes. Fantasy Chaos Gods are ranked at 2-B so this is consistent.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yeah, that's good additional support for 2-B Fantasy Chaos Gods.

Also supports Multiversal God Sigmar.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

We already knew he was 2-B considering he's the greatest opposition of the Chaos Gods, and equal to fused Gork n' Mork.