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Changing Hulk and other characters' stats with a Varies

And now Captain Marvel has "killed" Thor Odinson, just more proof (among other problems) that the platonic concept of consistency doesn't exist in Marvel comics.

Also I agree with Zark.
 
The storyline is not over yet. It probably turns out to be a simulacrum or something.
 
I have no idea why we ended up talking about the High 3-A stuff but I can ignore the 9-A minimum I proposed and just add Varies from 5-B to 4-B now.
 
I know it's not my opinion the one that it will decide this, but I still think that what I'll say have to be taken into account.
Hulk has variable strenght, yes. When calm or at the beginning of the transformation he's weaker than when enraged after some time. But I think that's not reason enough to think he has a variable tier. Personally, I think he's even 4-B when calm, in other words, in base. Here my reasons, and I apologize for the extension of the text (If you ask me, I think the most important points are 3 and 4):

My arguments

1) Hulk enemies doesn't have variable strength. The U-foes, The Abomination, The Leader inventions, wendigos, Zzzax, Mr. Hyde, Red-Hulk, Xemnu, etc, have always the same strength, and Hulk has fought them in both states (angry and calm) many, many times, being normally comparable (or slighty weaker) to them when calm and being stronger than them when enraged. And many Hulk enemies has good fights against other 4-B characters.

2) Hulk allies doesn't have variable strength either (or it's not as variable as the Hulk strength), and in base Hulk shouldn't be THAT weaker than any of them. She-Hulk is like since 2004 (or 2005, don't remember very well) treated as almost equal to Savage Hulk, as she has defeated since then many Hulk classic enemies (like the Abomination, Wendigo, U-Foes...) and proved herself stronger than Hercules. Skaar could fight Juggernaut (he was weaker, yes, but put a better fight than Colossus and a caught off-guard and calm Professor Hulk), defeated with ease Superia, who is comparable to Modern Carol Danvers, and put a good fight against Green Scar (World War Hulk). A-bomb fought evenly against Red Hulk. Lyra (Hulk daughter from the future), although she in fact has variable strength (she can get extremely weak when angry), normally is calm, and is comparable to Modern She-Hulk and Red She-Hulk. Red She-Hulk was able to fight Green Scar, could fight against his father and was able to defeat the Redeemer armor, an armor able to fight Savage Hulk, Red Hulk and stomp Samson. And Samson, arguably the weakest of the gamma gang, who is stated to be as strong as a calm Hulk, defeated once with much effort an enraged Hulk and recently in Immortal Hulk could resist a beating from an extremely angry Savage Hulk and even blocked one of his punches.


3) In some cases, Hulk has not been able to get stronger or, for being in an inteligence state, succesfuly prevents himself to get too much angry and stays with effort in calm state. This is the case of Professor Hulk, Banner controling Hulk body and Doc Green. In the first case, during an arc Professor Hulk couldn't get stronger, but weaker when angry (this situation is explained in Hulk profile) so hestruggle to stay calm and in that state he fought with effort against Thor and The Abomination and it wasn't directly outclassed by them. Once, Banner in control of Hulk body, and without getting angry, fought a wendigo (who, in turn, can fight Genis-Vell and injure him) without much problem, althought he didn't have the power to knocked him out, he was more than a match for the hairy beast. Doc Green doesn't get as angry as other Hulks, and in a very calm state one-shotted modern Carol Danvers. And there are some cases of a calm Savage Hulk fighting 4-B characters, like when Savage Hulk, at his weakest due to Annihilus empathic manipulation, was able to injure him in his hulksified state, or when he fought Juggernaut the first time, he really didn't want to fight, he was like getting bored of the situation, getting weaker every moment and he still put a good fight.


4) The whole variable Hulk strength thing depends of his emotional state. Calm=weaker, angry=stronger, so to really determine how variable its his tier, it's necessary to check all his worst showings and see if he was angry or not. For example, if we see in a comic Hulk being injured by an old Iron Man model, and in said comic Hulk is angry then it's an outlier and nothing more. If we find that, in most of his worst showings he's in fact calm, then yes, he has a very, very variable tier.


5) Hulk not directly killing 9-A characters when fighting them is thanks to Bruce Banner influence. Remember that he subconsciously do some stuff to reduce casualties to almost 0 during Hulk rampages and fights, something theorized by Amadeus Cho and likely confirmed by the Immortal Hulk series.
 
I don't think so, because as I said, most of them has a good track against other 4-B characters, like The Abomination, Red Hulk and modern She-Hulk. But okay, thanks for checking my arguments.
 
Abomination will be 5-B, Red Hulk and She-Hulk will have a Varies like Hulk.
 
She-Hulk strength is not so variable, in case it is, and Red Hulk doesn't have variable strength in any way, so a "varies" tier doesn't make sense in my opinion. The Abomination shouldn't be 5-B because since his first appearances has fought against Silver Surfer, and in his last appearance was shown as stronger than modern Carol Danvers.

And, @Eficiente, you haven't said anything about 3) and 4), which are my most important arguments
 
Yea She-Hulk's strength has never really seemed to be anywhere near as variable has Hulk's, and Abomination has also fought against Thor and Namor as well.
 
I'll start making a list in the OP of how characters would be modified by this. I'm by no means convinced by some words and a few feats, I want better organized and more context, so I'll keep those characters as I said they should be.
 
@H15 She-Hulk's strength does increase with rage, on one occasion she even goes on a rampage after being unable to control her power due to Scarlet Witch's magic. I agree with Red-Hulk, though. He only gets stronger by absorbing radiation, something the Hulk can also do.
 
Yes, but her power doesn't vary that much, like she has overpowered Heracles while in a completly calm state
 
@Eficiente

Thank you for helping out.
 
@ByAsura Yes, She-Hulk can get stronger with rage, but not that much. For example, we've seen Hulk being overpowered and in less than a minute being vastly stronger than his opponent, but that doesn't happen with She-Hulk. And she's mostly calm.
@Eficiente Then show a scan that suggest that Red Hulk has variable strength.You have not given any proof about it. As ByAsura said, he can get stronger absorbing energy, but he's no absorbing energy every second of the day, so his strength is not varying normallym and most of his feats were done without absorb energy. And, again, you haven't said anything about point 4., which doesn't have anything to do with evidence and stuff, but common sense, or is it that Hulk's strength does not depend on his emotional state now? And don't worry, I'll prepare a very big post full of evidence.

The main problem I see about this is that the criterion used here to determine if Hulk is at his strongest or at his weakest is not if he's angry or calm (as it should be, because his strength varies depending of his emotional state) but if Thor, Silver Surfer, Hercules or any another 4-B character is near or not, what is a very arbitrary criterion, because it has no relation to what really makes Hulk strength varies: his anger.
 
So what do we need to do here?
 
I don't exactly recall, but the Hulks supposed to be given a Varies. 5-B to 4-B
 
Necro, but why are we considering 4-B the upper bound for Hulk when he has far better feats? If we're going to make him varies, actually list his lowest and highest ratings instead of arbitrary borders.
 
If we're going to make him "Varies", use his best consistent feats on his own, which is High 3-A (or if those feats are invalid, 3-A). We either use that or just don't make him varies if it's so inconsistent.
 
If people think Tier 3 is too iffy due to the feats themselves being questionable, I'm fine with 4-A as a compromise for now, as he shook the universe multiple time and destroyed pocket dimensions.
 
Where does 5-B come from actually? Thing is 5-A.

I would suggest Varies from 5-A to 4-A (should be 3-A personally, but I know people won't agree with that).
 
Having a Varies tier doesn't mean outliers don't exist, for him some 3-A feats are absolutely that given the implications they give. He's not that much above Thor & others 4-B guys, those other guys & Thor aren't on that level and Hulk doesn't reach super privileged and unique levels of anger when doing those 4-A & 3-A feats, no, he has the same and higher levels of anger in hundreds of other occasions where he's not on those levels.
 
The whole point of varies is that his rating varies, making arbitrary borders of 5-B and 4-B makes zero sense when it's not established that his peak limit is Thor's level.
 
What the hell, one thing clearly doesn't take away the other ("The whole point of varies is that his rating varies"=one thing, "Having a Varies tier doesn't mean outliers don't exist"=the other), the other got hit by a straw man. It's not arbitrary a 4-B peak when anything above is inconsistent, and by it's not I mean it's impossible. It doesn't need to be established what is his peak when, consistently, he never showed anything better.
 
His peak isn't shown at 4-B at he consistently shows better feats, that's literally all I have to say. His higher feats aren't inconsistent when he is literally said to vary in strength. Your whole argument is based on the assumption that his peak is consistently 4-B, which is false.
 
My "whole argument" is based on the idea that anything above is inconsistent enough to be ignored, which we will see.
 
Hulk's higher end feats are inconconsistent with the many and many of 4-B feats done by characters on his level
 
World War Hulk [Who is much stronger than base Hulk] completly run out of power by fightining with the Sentry

and Hulk's highest shown forms of anger aka World Breaker hulk where he litterally outursting with gamma energy was knowcked out by modified orbital lasers of Tony

4-B IS his peak
 
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