Chainsaw Man Massive Upgrades and Profile Revisions

[Jesterofgames]

Cause it's calcing the mass, then the speed no and using them as the basis of another calc? I'm kinda foggy on the rules of calc-stacking here that's why, which is why I find it strange why these type of KE aren't considered CS.

Because it’s calculating the mass of the 20% gun devil , then using the speed calculated for the gun devil. All from the same scene.

• “Pixel scaling over several steps is permitted, as long as the size of the scaled objects usually stays constant.
• Using the calculated speed of a projectile to calculate the speed of a character dodging said projectile on the very same occasion is usually permitted, as long as the projectile wouldn't have changed its speed mid flight.“

Examples from the calc stacking from the page of stuff that’s allowed.


It calculated the mass of the same gun devil moving mach 726 in the same scene. Then just multiplied by 5 for 100% gun devil due to 5 times more mass.

 

[GunshyFever]

Yes, I know its accepted. I was talking about KE rules in general lol

Ill just quote the rules for you;

Speed can be used to find KE when​

• A certain character moves at a certain speed while carrying an object, that would require superhuman strength to be carried.
• The kinetic energy displayed is directly shown to be as a result of speed, or at least heavily implied to be so. Examples would be: A meteor crashing into the ground, as well as a Kaiju moving at full speed.
• A verse consistently treats speed, and its relation to attack potency, in a realistic manner. Calculating kinetic energy from a character's speed isn't problematic, if it's clear that the story they're from doesn't separate speed from one's general capacity for destruction.
• A projectile has been calculated to move at a certain speed, such as a cannonball or a spear.
• An object moves at said speed due to the secondary effects of an attack. For example when an explosion tosses large rocks around, their KE can be used to measure the power of the explosion.
• A feat happens in the Real World, since physics work normally in real life.
• A giant character, one weighing 200kg or more, is moving themselves. For launching feats such a minimum mass isn't necessary.

 

[Blahblah9755]

Cause it's calcing the mass, then the speed no and using them as the basis of another calc? I'm kinda foggy on the rules of calc-stacking here that's why, which is why I find it strange why these type of KE aren't considered CS.

Calc stacking is allowed if parameters can’t change between, so calculating it’s weight and speed during the same scene then using them for KE should be acceptable calc stacking

 

[GunshyFever]

bump

 

[Chariot190]

Feat aint calc stacking.

Well it is, but calcing a characters weight or size for part of bigger calc is something we allow as long as it's static, which Gun Devil is, his values dont shift canonically between scenes.

Instead of thinking of it as calc stacking, think of it as just one step in a larger overall calc, much like calcing a boulder that someone is lifting for weight and then KE if they yeet it right after.

 

[GunshyFever]

bump

 

[Robo432343]

bump

 

[That_moron2]

Why are the chapter names and numbers in brackets on the profiles?

 

[Hiiilt]

7-B chainsaw man is finally real

 

[Arkenis]

Why are the chapter names and numbers in brackets on the profiles?

That's reference indexing.

 

[That_moron2]

That's reference indexing.

I've never seen another page go [Series name]; [chapter number]

 

[Jesterofgames]

I've never seen another page go [Series name]; [chapter number]

Look on Arale from dr slump page. It’s got like so many references like that

 

[That_moron2]

Look on Arale from dr slump page. It’s got like so many references like that

No it doesn't. On the Quanxi page references look like this:

[Chainsaw Man]; Chapter [143 + 154]

While on the Arale page they look like this:

Dr. Slump manga chapter 1

Also its more standard for the chapters to be group separately so it should look like this.

<ref name="whatever">Chainsaw Man Chapter 143</ref> <ref name="whatever">Chainsaw Man Chapter 154</ref>

Same thing on the Gun Devil page which btw, you're missing a ) here
Also the Gun Devil's image should be a render which you can ask for in the official render request thread.

 

[GunshyFever]

Why are the chapter names and numbers in brackets on the profiles?

Its referencing for manga and books, it was originally this;

[Series name]; Vol [Volume number] (If any); Chapter [Chapter number].

But I shortened it to this;

[Series name]; Chapter [chapter number]

Since I found the volume part unnecessary

No it doesn't. On the Quanxi page references look like this:

I did it like that because there were multiple scans in that single imgur link which are from different chapters, rather than a two singular scans in one sentence
eg.

i**'''[[Transformation]]''' (Quanxi is able to enter her Hybrid form by pulling the bow under her eyepatch, with the use of [ with help from others]<ref name="[Chainsaw Man]; Chapter [67]">[Chainsaw Man]; Chapter [67]</ref>)

Same thing on the Gun Devil page which btw, you're missing a ) here

Fixed

Also the Gun Devil's image should be a render which you can ask for in the official render request thread.

Alright
Edit: Ive done so

 

[That_moron2]

Its referencing for manga and books, it was originally this;

But I shortened it to this;

Since I found the volume part unnecessary

I did it like that because there were multiple scans in that single imgur link which are from different chapters, rather than a two singular scans in one sentence
eg.


Fixed

Alright
Edit: Ive done so

I’m not asking about why you included the chapter and series I’m asking why they are in brackets.
Also even if the Imgur links have multiple chapters you can still just put the reference for the first chapter included and then the reference for the second chapter included. You don’t need 75+76 just 75 then 76

 

[GunshyFever]

I’m not asking about why you included the chapter and series I’m asking why they are in brackets.

I took the format from the references instruction page, that's why it has brackets (It also looks neater imo)

Also even if the Imgur links have multiple chapters you can still just put the reference for the first chapter included and then the reference for the second chapter included. You don’t need 75+76 just 75 then 76

I do that when I have multiple imgur links in one sentence
for example;

Able to incapacitate Aki and Angel with a simple attack[9]([Chainsaw Man]; Chapter [60]) along with Denji and his body gaurds[8]([Chainsaw Man]; Chapter [61])

But when I have multiple scans in one imgur link I do this;

Is able to bisect transformed Miri Sugo with her attacks whom is comparable to Post-Fear Boost Chainsaw Man[15]([Chainsaw Man]; Chapter [143 + 154])

 

[GunshyFever]

bump

 

[That_moron2]

I took the format from the references instruction page, that's why it has brackets (It also looks neater imo)

That's not what your supposed to do, check any other page.

I do that when I have multiple imgur links in one sentence
for example;
But when I have multiple scans in one imgur link I do this;

This isn't standard format.

 

[GunshyFever]

That's not what your supposed to do, check any other page.

This isn't standard format.

I adjusted the profiles

 

[That_moron2]

I adjusted the profiles

Thank you.

 

[Robo432343]

soul crush works on ppl who have resistance to it

 

[That_moron2]

soul crush works on ppl who have resistance to it

Wrong thread.

 

[GunshyFever]

Wrong thread.

Nah we should give GD soul manip fr

 

[That_moron2]

Nah we should give GD soul manip fr

Layered passive soul manp gun devil

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Hey uhhh, so what about discussing the feat

 

[GunshyFever]

Hey uhhh, so what about discussing the feat

Waiting for opinions from staff

 

[That_moron2]

Hey uhhh, so what about discussing the feat

I don't really think its an outlier since Pochita can beat the concept of nuclear weapons which can get up to 100 megatons

 

[GunshyFever]

Chariot says the verse lacks the calcs to back up this type of feat, but he also doesn't discard it but is rather just neutral, so we just have to wait for other staff members to share their opinion.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Following. Will say don't agree at all with the outlier arguments.

 

[Chariot190]

I don't really think its an outlier since Pochita can beat the concept of nuclear weapons which can get up to 100 megatons

Again, we know devil's can be both weaker, and stronger, than what they embody. Need a lil more context.
But that doesn't actually tackle the issue, by this logic, a Nuke Devil would be stronger than a Gun Devil, so why is a Gun Devil, merely moving, above the absolute highest nukes ever used? This doesn't support the KE, it discredits if anything.

The existence of a higher feat also doesn't fix the KE issues with the alleged feat, like the High 6-A feat's existence isn't making the Gun Devil's feat not problematic, Makima could obliterate a literal mountain, that wouldn't affect whether or not Gun Devil's KE should be used or not.
It isn't that simple, the issues aren't just it's an "outlier", it's a bunch of small things, some bordering on rule breaking, some inconsistent, and more.

The argument is, beyond not really adhering to KE rules, it isn't corroborated by anything, a High 6-A feat from someone a billion times stronger, or unknown nuke statements don't actually corroborate it, at that point, just upgrade them with that stuff instead imo.

 

[Therefir]

I find it somewhat weird you are calculating the Gun Devil's KE knowing it doesn't attack using its body at all.

 

[SeijiSetto]

I find it somewhat weird you are calculating the Gun Devil's KE knowing it doesn't attack using its body at all.

I figured, in line with Large Size Calculations, that would be okay.
The same way we give ratings based on a really large character's potential energy (based on the reasoning that "Any character can at least just fall unto someone.") or a really large character's KE.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

by this logic, a Nuke Devil would be stronger than a Gun Devil, so why is a Gun Devil, merely moving, above the absolute highest nukes ever used? This doesn't support the KE, it discredits if anything.

why are you holding humanity's collective fear of nuclear weapons to a single bomb that was specifically nerfed to allow the pilots to get away back in the 60's. Its the Nuke Devil not the Tsar Devil, peoples collective fear isnt based on a single bomb but all of the nuclear weapons that have been detonated as well as the nukes that could be detonated often rooted in the most extreme cases, like nuclear fallout on societal level. we have had the means to create thousand megaton nukes since the mid 70's so its not like nukes have this inherent limit.

 

[Chariot190]

why are you holding humanity's collective fear of nuclear weapons to a single bomb that was specifically nerfed to allow the pilots to get away back in the 60's.

Because devils can be weaker, or stronger, than what they embody, and unfortunately, you don't get to automatically presume the nuke devil eclipses actual nukes just for the sake of it. We need a statement or proof that's the case.
Hell you could even make an argument a nuke devil is weaker than an actual nuke due to the creation of numerous national laws effectively forbidding them, or maybe you couldn't, who knows. This is an issue, we don't know nearly enough about it, or when Pochita killed it (aka how feared nukes even were), to use it to justify Gun Devil's KE of all things.

Its the Nuke Devil not the Tsar Devil, peoples collective fear isnt based on a single bomb but all of the nuclear weapons that have been detonated as well as the nukes that could be detonated often rooted in the most extreme cases, like nuclear fallout on societal level.

Fear of nukes? Unless Pochita fought it in the 60s or before, the actual fear of nuclear cataclysm, fallout, and nukes in general, has diminished exponentially. To the point I would legitimately say that guns are a more common and collective fear than nukes within the past 20-30 years, simply due to being more widespread, commonplace, and readily available, while still being deadly. Ya don't walk down a bad street and fear getting nuked do ya?

After all, it isn't like a lightning or car devil are more powerful than the Gun Devil, despite lightning and getting smashed by a speeding truck, both holding exponentially more power than an AK.

we have had the means to create thousand megaton nukes since the mid 70's so its not like nukes have this inherent limit.

But did we? If we never did, why would a devil embody a mere hypothetical that never happened? And when did the Nuke Devil even get defeated? If it was before we had the means, than in CSM's context this wouldn't make sense as the concept of a nuke is gone, so no progress would have been made.

I mean, for example, we have some strong-ass chicken breeds, and could go even further with selective breeding, and Alektorophobia is a thing, and yet, the chicken devil is legitimately sub-chicken level, what's possible in theory doesn't seem to play a role, unless that hypothetical is part of what's feared.

This is a nothing argument no offense, it's just "hypothetically [thing] so it's ok", without any actual evidence those hypotheticals are even true, to begin with, and if they were true, wouldn't affect if Gun Devil going vroom is a legitimate 7-B/A feat anyway, but at that point just upgrade Pochita off the Nuke Devil if the argument you and others seem to be making is "Gun Devil's KE is below the Nuke Devil, so it's ok", you don't need a sus "feat" if the argument for why it's legit is this even better scaling, just use the better scaling.

 

[GunshyFever]

I don't agree with the fact that the Nuclear Weapons Devil was weaker than its concept because Makima states by the time Pochita defeated these Devils they were very feared/in their prime (so we can assume his defeat was in a timeframe when nuclear weapons were feared the most)

 

[Chariot190]

I don't agree with the fact that the Nuclear Weapons Devil was weaker than its concept because Makima states by the time Pochita defeated these Devils they were very feared/in their prime (so we can assume his defeat was in a timeframe when nuclear weapons were feared the most)

That isn't what she says.

"All of these once existed, and were feared every bit as much as the devils with their names".

Which tells us nothing, just that these things were feared just as much as the devil's that embodied them (Which is even more vague than if she said the devils were feared as much as the things they embodied, it's actually an inverse statement), how feared were they when he defeated them? How does this affect them? Taking nukes as an example, timeframe 100% matters for this statement.

It doesn't give us any relevant info, and most certainly doesn't say they were in their most feared when defeated.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

I don't know if this is useless to say, but CSM's world events are different from our own I'm pretty sure. The series takes place in 1997-1998, yet some anomalies are present. The USSR is still a country, and Hawaii is its own sovereign territory as opposed to being apart of the U.S.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Because devils can be weaker, or stronger, than what they embody,

based on how feared they are

and unfortunately, you don't get to automatically presume the nuke devil eclipses actual nukes just for the sake of it.

actual nukes are not limited to 50 megaton ranges.

We need a statement or proof that's the case.

we dont because IRL nukes meet that criteria.

Hell you could even make an argument a nuke devil is weaker than an actual nuke due to the creation of numerous national laws effectively forbidding them, or maybe you couldn't, who knows. This is an issue, we don't know nearly enough about it, or when Pochita killed it (aka how feared nukes even were), to use it to justify Gun Devil's KE of all things.

its a non sequitur, the gun devil being a planet buster in this case would not change it either, he has his own calc, the point was that it was stupid to suddenly create an inconsistency by attributing that the COLLECTIVE FEAR of Nuclear weapons was attributed to a single nuke and thus it was impossible for the the nuke devil to scale above. you could have just said the devils strenght is proportional to their collective fear as oppose to their literal embodiment and called it a day.

Fear of nukes? Unless Pochita fought it in the 60s or before, the actual fear of nuclear cataclysm, fallout, and nukes in general, has diminished exponentially. To the point I would legitimately say that guns are a more common and collective fear than nukes within the past 20-30 years,

Guns are definitely not more feared than Nukes, Guns while deadly are used for a variety of purposes outside of just killing people, often recreational like practice ranges,hunting ect. they are also used as a form of protection either enforced by the law or an individual in places where its allowed. guns are often feared in the here and now when its right in your face. we havent had nuclear bomb drop on a populace since world war 2 and the height of its fear was nearly 4 decades later, policies are made and constantly maintained because of those fears.

and readily available

the world isnt america.

while still being deadly. Ya don't walk down a bad street and fear getting nuked do ya?

I dont walk down a bad street because i fear i might be robbed or killed, not because i specifically think someone will pull out a desert eagle .

After all, it isn't like a lightning or car devil are more powerful than the Gun Devil, despite lightning and getting smashed by a speeding truck, both holding exponentially more power than an AK.

based on what?, to steelman this. the car devil could be an end game villain for all we know but i digress, if people dont fear those things as much then the gun devil would obviously be stronger.

But did we? If we never did, why would a devil embody a mere hypothetical that never happened? And when did the Nuke Devil even get defeated? If it was before we had the means, than in CSM's context this wouldn't make sense as the concept of a nuke is gone, so no progress would have been made.

Its irrelevant , because the actual value of one specific nuke doesnt matter, the point that your missing is that a collective fear of something isnt bound by 1 specific nuke, in the same way the fear of falling isnt bound by falling off 10 meters or falling from space down to orbit. the fear of something itself is what matters. also to steelman this, a collective fear would account for every nuke detonated by your criteria.

I mean, for example, we have some strong-ass chicken breeds, and could go even further with selective breeding, and Alektorophobia is a thing, and yet, the chicken devil is legitimately sub-chicken level, what's possible in theory doesn't seem to play a role, unless that hypothetical is part of what's feared.

the hypothetical is whats feared about nukes largely, because the amount of people that have experienced a Nuke in their day to day is very very very small (obviously) often being shared by the populace that were specifically targeted, their Living relatives and Military officials who were part or witnessed the detonation test.

the entire existence of laws and prevention of nuclear warfare is entirely based on a Hypothetical of mutual destruction and global annihilation, fear of nukes are predicated on assumptions for obvious reasons, because unlike a Gun, nukes dont normally let you do easy do overs.

chickens are common farm animals domesticated for quite literally thousands of years.

This is a nothing argument no offense, it's just "hypothetically [thing] so it's ok",

a 100 megaton nuke existing isnt hypothetical but okay pop off

without any actual evidence those hypotheticals are even true

i guess we should get rid of 80% of our standards given you cant prove them in a controlled environment.

, to begin with, and if they were true, wouldn't affect if Gun Devil going vroom is a legitimate 7-B/A feat anyway,

then don't use it as some weird anti feat?

but at that point just upgrade Pochita off the Nuke Devil if the argument you and others seem to be making is "Gun Devil's KE is below the Nuke Devil, so it's ok",

Its easy to debate a person made of straw

you don't need a sus "feat" if the argument for why it's legit is this even better scaling, just use the better scaling.

then maybe explain why its sus outside of nonsense like

"But that doesn't actually tackle the issue, by this logic, a Nuke Devil would be stronger than a Gun Devil, so why is a Gun Devil, merely moving, above the absolute highest nukes ever used? This doesn't support the KE, it discredits if anything."

"I'm not so sure, I don't wanna call it an outlier, but more like, is calcing this and treating it like an actual feat even the right call?"

all this comes off as as an appeal to Incredulity solely based on huur durr 16 000x is a big number Impossbiru
we have objectively and broadly on a consistent bases have characters and verses jump entire tiers with a single feat, in fact a single feat sometimes is the linchpin for an entire verses scaling , and often by gaps of cosmological differences. the numerical gap isnt itself nearly enough just to say "outlier" its stuff like

• Notable consistent anti feats
• Premise breaking or narrative breaking
• is there a context that changes why it may or may not scale

as per our own standards
"If a character with several city destruction feats is shown to be able to destroy a mountain, we cannot necessarily consider it as an outlier, for the reason that the jump between tiers is not extreme enough to be so, despite the jump between energy values we attribute to them. If the character has very few feats, we can likely ignore this point. "

obviously if your issues encompass all of these and you have evidence or you as a calc member actually sees legitimate issue with the calc itself, then sure by all means, I wont argue with you.

 

[Zabazab]

Personally I don't consider it an outlier given the Gun Devil is one of the strongest Devils outside Hell, and it follows all of the KE Feat Rules, so it's not violating any of those either.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I think the calc is debatable in its arguments (the classic "when to use KE" discussion, the notion of linear scaling for 20% vs 100% mass, etc) and I don't know that I would agree with the interpretations of the thread fully, either- particularly the "some gun devil" comment could mean something much different than "aha, we're gonna shitstomp that guy". I will agree, at the very least, that the thread presents a good possibility, even if one that I would consider weaker than ideal, and would agree with "At least 7-B, possibly 7-A".

If someone could summarize the outlier argument in one post (or direct me to one where this is already embodied), I would like that, spares me some time going through the thread.