Chainsaw Man discussion thread

[Aaaaa11112222]

The "output" here does not exist, because Fujimoto doesn't work on the logic of an "output", but more than "what you can do with your power". Like for the storm devil, it's ability yield an enormous energy of that of a storm, but what can it even do with it? The "output" hence is meaningless, and because Chainsaw Man doesn't work on an energy system, the "output" is even more meaningless.

I'm still confused. Like, for example, we have two devils, Typhoon and Control. Control is more feared than Typhoon, meaning Control's abilities and strength are more powerful than that of Typhoon. Thus, this would mean Typhoon, who can yield like X joules - something through the catalyst of power, gets outclassed by Control simply because Control has more power than Typhoon, and this is in every way possible. Like, I know Fujimotto doesn't care about the "output" logic, but isn't this still what's happening? He doesn't have to comfirm it in the manga, it's just the fact that a devil more feared and powerful than a lower devil means they can just produce more power, regardless of how they do it, whether it be AP, DC, whatever.

 

[ElajRuengies]

So, just to confirm, correct me if I'm wrong, but if you're more feared than another devil, that means you just have higher striking strength, durability, and etc, but not higher output than a lower devil period from their abilities?

Don't like that word output but yes. (This does create a scaling triangle in the current arc that can only be resolved by picking one statement over another, but we'll figure that out later)

If so, I'm a bit skepitc, because isn't Darkness and Makima like weak striking strength wise?

Makima was capable of punching a weakened Pochita's limbs off, saws included. It's weak comparsd to the Finger Gun, but she got that by beating 20% Gun, so it's not something innate to Makima.

Primal Fears just rarely seem to throw punches in general. Would be weird if Cthulhu's main way of attacking was dropkicks and full-Nelsons.

Also, you said their abilities get stronger too, so why wouldn't this mean their abilities would be more <powerful> than a lower feared devil?

Because Devil abilities are less "energy output" based and more:

 

[GunshyFever]

Me seeing anything higher than 8-A on Denji's profile

 

[Zabazab]

(This does create a scaling triangle in the current arc that can only be resolved by picking one statement over another, but we'll figure that out later)

Team Barem'sNotAPowerscaler will win.

 

[Arkenis]

Me seeing anything higher than 8-A on Denji's profile

me with Yuji.

 

[ElajRuengies]

Team Barem'sNotAPowerscaler will win.

Almost as good a team name as Team Yoru'sNotStupidSHE'SNOT!

 

[Zabazab]

Almost as good a team name as Team Yoru'sNotStupidSHE'SNOT!

I'll be fr I planned on bringing up her finding Denji's button, investigating it, and finding his school as a reason as to why her intelligence should be rated higher... and then remembered Denji was intentionally leaving evidence of his identity after every fight as Chainsaw Man

 

[Aaaaa11112222]

Another question, should Makima scale to Pochita durabiltiy/striking strength, etc wise because she claims that her alongside the other 4 horseman has fought Pochita for decades?

 

[GunshyFever]

It's hard to believe that Yoru has lower intelligence than Power

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Team Barem'sNotAPowerscaler will win.

Me on my way to ignore everything Barem said (his ass can't powerscale for shi):


But seriously, let's just ignore barem, bro is just yapping shit

Another question, should Makima scale to Pochita durabiltiy/striking strength, etc wise because she claims that her alongside the other 4 horseman has fought Pochita for decades?

Why would she?

 

[ElajRuengies]

I'll be fr I planned on bringing up her finding Denji's button, investigating it, and finding his school as a reason as to why her intelligence should be rated higher... and then remembered Denji was intentionally leaving evidence of his identity after every fight as Chainsaw Man

Oh damn you're right- that's so funny I didn't even think of that. Yoshida heard a rumor about Chainsaw Man being in 4th East High despite literally just transferring there too. Man was probably leaving so much more evidence besides the buttons...

me with Yuji.

Speaking of Yoru and Yuji, they've got a match up that needs to be removed since it says initial Yuji's 9-A for some reason.

 

[Arkenis]

Speaking of Yoru and Yuji, they've got a match up that needs to be removed since it says initial Yuji's 9-A for some reason.

wdym

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Anyways, Denji speed not scaling to Katana's new calc is diabolical enough.

 

[ElajRuengies]

It's hard to believe that Yoru has lower intelligence than Power

Yoru ain't winning any Nobel Peace Prizes that's for sure. (Also Power wouldn't test a gun by putting it against her head and firing.)

Another question, should Makima scale to Pochita durabiltiy/striking strength, etc wise because she claims that her alongside the other 4 horseman has fought Pochita for decades?

No, she's demonstrably weaker than non-weakened Pochita in stats.

wdym

From Yoru's Profile:

Yuji Itadori (Jujutsu Kaisen) Yuji's Profile ('Fearsome Womb Arc' Yuji and 'Pre-Chainsaw Man Church Arc' Yoru Were Being Used. Yuji had the Slaughter Demon Dagger, Yoru had Tanaka's Spinal Cord Sword and Hand Grenade, They started 25 meters apart and speed was equalized)

Anyways, Denji speed not scaling to Katana's new calc is diabolical enough.

Post-Training or Post-Chainsaw Church? Because I've got a month's worth of arguments for why the former isn't true.

 

[Aaaaa11112222]

No, she's demonstrably weaker than non-weakened Pochita in stats.

Then what did she mean by that staement? Wouldn't it entail she's relative and scales to him in those ways?

 

[ElajRuengies]

Then what did she mean by that staement? Wouldn't it entail she's relative and scales to him in those ways?

...Please tell me you're joking. Please tell me that you're just intentionally trying to waste time and get under my skin.

I swear, I know I shouldn't be rude on the internet but you're making it so easy.

 

[GunshyFever]

...Please tell me you're joking. Please tell me that you're just intentionally trying to waste time and get under my skin.

I swear, I know I shouldn't be rude on the internet but you're making it so easy.

Average debate interaction on any offsite platform.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Yoru ain't winning any Nobel Peace Prizes that's for sure. (Also Power wouldn't test a gun by putting it against her head and firing.)

No, she's demonstrably weaker than non-weakened Pochita in stats.

From Yoru's Profile:


Post-Training or Post-Chainsaw Church? Because I've got a month's worth of arguments for why the former isn't true.

The current Denji (or post-fear boosted)

Then what did she mean by that staement? Wouldn't it entail she's relative and scales to him in those ways?

Think again for 0.1 second on why that would imply that she's relative to him in any way.

 

[ElajRuengies]

The current Denji (or post-fear boosted)

That's reasonable. We can get to that in the Speed CRT (whenever that happens).

 

[Zabazab]

Then what did she mean by that staement? Wouldn't it entail she's relative and scales to him in those ways?

Makima fought and defeated the Gun Devil in a mere few seconds. Do you think, based on that fight, Makima would be able to punch harder than the Gun Devil?

The answer is obviously that she can't. Devils have more to them than stats. Ergo, stating that Pochita "fought the four Horsemen" says nothing about what Makima was doing in that fight. Like we SEE her get completely blitzed and one-shot by Chainsaw Man in the very arc she says this in so I have no idea why you're even entertaining this idea.

 

[Arkenis]

The answer is obviously that she can't. Devils have more to them than stats. Ergo, stating that Pochita "fought the four Horsemen" says nothing about what Makima was doing in that fight. Like we SEE her get completely blitzed and one-shot by Chainsaw Man in the very arc she says this in so I have no idea why you're even entertaining this idea.

Held back, wanted to see how cool csm is, likes being hurt by csm, can't die, she's a fan of csm. She held back.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Held back, wanted to see how cool csm is, likes being hurt by csm, can't die, she's a fan of csm. She held back.

If she's a fan of csm, she won't hold back, that's disrespectful. And she confirmed that a head on fight against Pochita is unwinnable.

 

[Arkenis]

If she's a fan of csm, she won't held back, that's disrespectful. And she confirmed that a head on fight against Pochita is unwinnable.

unwinnable because she controls stuff.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

unwinnable because she controls stuff.

imagine the control devil itself just be like "y'all are useless I'm doing it myself" and Makima'd all over the place with her left hook and right hook.

 

[Arkenis]

imagine the control devil itself just be like "y'all are useless I'm doing it myself" and Makima'd all over the place with her left hook and right hook.

Hell devil twist his ball

 

[GunshyFever]

Held back, wanted to see how cool csm is, likes being hurt by csm, can't die, she's a fan of csm. She held back.

She didn't hold back her physical strength. This is evident because the chainsaws of a weakened Pochita could still slice through her. The only difference is that during the fight, when Makima became serious, she became faster and stronger than him. However, we don’t have any feats to place Makima herself on the same level as Awakened Pochita.

That said, I’m not against Makima scaling to 20% of the Gun Devil. Just because she used her abilities to swiftly defeat the Gun Devil doesn’t mean she couldn’t defeat him with her bare hands. It was simply the most efficient method to take down the cataclysmic devil and execute her plan. I don’t understand how the majority concluded that she couldn’t do so, as there has been no evidence to suggest otherwise. I am against cherry picking feats and logic.

I would fully understand if someone were to argue that 100% of the Gun Devil would be more empowered and physically stronger than Makima, as the logic and evidence behind that would make sense. However, that is not the case for 20% of the Gun Devil, which Makima should be considerably stronger than, based on fear scaling alone.

 

[ElajRuengies]

That said, I’m not against Makima scaling to 20% of the Gun Devil. Just because she used her abilities to swiftly defeat the Gun Devil doesn’t mean she couldn’t defeat him with her bare hands. It was simply the most efficient method to take down the cataclysmic devil and execute her plan. I don’t understand how the majority concluded that she couldn’t do so, as there has been no evidence to suggest otherwise. I am against cherry picking feats and logic.

...You sure you want Pochita Clone and Hybrid Quanxi to backscale to baseline Town level?

I would fully understand if someone were to argue that 100% of the Gun Devil would be more empowered and physically stronger than Makima, as the logic and evidence behind that would make sense. However, that is not the case for 20% of the Gun Devil, which Makima should be considerably stronger than, based on fear scaling alone.

How dividing the Gun Devil interacts with the world's rampant fear of it isn't really understood enough for me to be sure about that. Governments fear Makima, but Civilians fear Gun.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

How dividing the Gun Devil interacts with the world's rampant fear of it isn't reallt understood enough for me to be sure about that. Governments fear Makima, but Civilians fear Gun.

I think it's because of Gun control law at the time 20% Gun Devil rampages, it's fear has significantly reduced compare to it's prime.

 

[GunshyFever]

...You sure you want Pochita Clone and Hybrid Quanxi to backscale to baseline Town level?

This won't be a problem as long as they don’t possess any anti-feats, both have the status and scaling to justify being at that level and there’s nothing that contradicts them being that high.

On a personal note, no, I want them at 8-A (this is common knowledge), but I’m not going to cherry pick until an 8-A feat eventually comes along just to push my own agenda. If they scale, they scale.

How dividing the Gun Devil interacts with the world's rampant fear of it isn't really understood enough for me to be sure about that. Governments fear Makima, but Civilians fear Gun.

The fear of the Gun Devil remains unaffected, but the power of the Gun Devil is weakened since it’s only 20% of his body. We know that 100% of the Gun Devil includes skin, legs, flesh and theoretically many more weapons on his main body. Naturally, the physical power he can generate would be weaker in this state. Hence, Makima would be superior. This is similar to the situation with Pochita in his weakened state. Makima is more physically powerful than both when they do not possess their full strength. Why? Via fear scaling generally.

 

[ElajRuengies]

This won't be a problem as long as they don’t possess any anti-feats, both have the status and scaling to justify being at that level and there’s nothing that contradicts them being that high.

Nothing besides the fact that they possess no AP or Durability feats even remotely close to 5.8 kilotons. A lack of evidence against something is not evidence for something.

Also, this means Nighttime Santa would upscale to be way stronger than that, and at that point even Denji taking a fly-swat from her and remaining in one piece would be ridiculous. We also know Nighttime Santa's strength was sufficient to kill Makima (per Darkness's contract- granted Makima didn't have the Finger Gun yet), meaning they should be at least comparable.

And you can't fix that by just scaling Hybrid Denji to Small Town level+, because then that results in nonsense like kiloton-Kishibe or nuke-proof Public Safety uniforms.

On a personal note, no, I want them at 8-A (this is common knowledge), but I’m not going to cherry pick until an 8-A feat eventually comes along just to push my own agenda. If they scale, they scale.

Based.

The fear of the Gun Devil remains unaffected, but the power of the Gun Devil is weakened since it’s only 20% of his body. We know that 100% of the Gun Devil includes skin, legs, flesh and theoretically many more weapons on his main body. Naturally, the physical power he can generate would be weaker in this state. Hence, Makima would be superior. This is similar to the situation with Pochita in his weakened state. Makima is more physically powerful than both when they do not possess their full strength. Why? Via fear scaling generally.

I don't think it can be quantified that easily. Gun killed 1.3 million people in 5 minutes and then inexplicably vanished, and no civilians knew when it could return. Most of the world's populace was living in fear of the Gun Devil (Ch. 89), meanwhile Makima's machinations were primarily known by other governments given Santa Claus's note. Even at only one fifth strength, the fact that way, way, way more people were aware of Gun's threat than they were of Makima's means she can't just scale higher than Gun just because Gun was weakened.

 

[GunshyFever]

Snip

Not every devil’s strength comes from how much damage they can physically cause, it often ties directly to their concept and how fear of that concept manifests. For example, the Gun Devil is clearly a destructive force because it represents firearms and mass violence. Its abilities make sense because it’s tied to the fear of guns and their catastrophic potential. But not every devil is built for that same kind of large, scale destruction and that doesn’t mean they’re weaker in terms of AP.

Take Primal Devils, like the Darkness Devil (specifically). It doesn’t have any massive destruction feats to its name, yet it’s clearly portrayed as stronger than the Gun Devil. Why? Because it represents the instinctive fear of darkness, which goes beyond physical destruction. Its strength relies on its concept, and that’s where its power lies primarily as such for every Devil. The same can be said for Makima, who represents Conquest. Her abilities don’t revolve around mass destruction but rather dominating/controlling others. That kind of concept doesn’t need raw destructive power to be terrifying.

You mentioned that the Gun Devil’s threat was more widely known among civilians compared to Makima’s influence. Sure, the Gun Devil’s destruction was immediate and visible regarding that it wiped out 1.3 million people in five mins. But Makima’s power which is the fear of control isn’t about destruction as ive said earlier, it’s about the dread of losing your freedom, of being dominated by something you can’t fight back against. That kind of fear is harder to measure, but it’s powerful nonetheless. It’s the same reason the Primal Devils are stronger, they embody fears that are harder to define but instinctively felt in the day to day lives of humans.

Ultimately tho, not every devil is meant to be compared based on how much damage they can physically do. The Gun Devil is a weapon of mass destruction, but devils like Makima, Santa Claus or the DD operate on completely different. Their power isn’t about DC, it’s about how their abilities reflect their concepts. Scaling them fairly means taking this into account instead of just focusing on raw feats. The narrative makes it clear that strength is as much about the specific concept and how much it is feared.

Hence they should still scale regardless, primarily because of fear scaling.

Edit: Hence x2, the very existence of Devils should be constantly powering up Makima.

 

[Alexander]

They have been arguing for about 3 days about the power of fear of demons, thought i was in a argument about a sword being able to negate the concept of distance and it lasted one week

 

[Epiccheev]

imagine the control devil itself just be like "y'all are useless I'm doing it myself" and Makima'd all over the place with her left hook and right hook.

Makima when it doesn't look unwinnable:

 

[ElajRuengies]

Not every devil’s strength comes from how much damage they can physically cause, it often ties directly to their concept and how fear of that concept manifests. For example, the Gun Devil is clearly a destructive force because it represents firearms and mass violence. Its abilities make sense because it’s tied to the fear of guns and their catastrophic potential. But not every devil is built for that same kind of large, scale destruction and that doesn’t mean they’re weaker in terms of AP.

Take Primal Devils, like the Darkness Devil (specifically). It doesn’t have any massive destruction feats to its name, yet it’s clearly portrayed as stronger than the Gun Devil. Why? Because it represents the instinctive fear of darkness, which goes beyond physical destruction. Its strength relies on its concept, and that’s where its power lies primarily as such for every Devil. The same can be said for Makima, who represents Conquest. Her abilities don’t revolve around mass destruction but rather dominating/controlling others. That kind of concept doesn’t need raw destructive power to be terrifying.

You mentioned that the Gun Devil’s threat was more widely known among civilians compared to Makima’s influence. Sure, the Gun Devil’s destruction was immediate and visible regarding that it wiped out 1.3 million people in five mins. But Makima’s power which is the fear of control isn’t about destruction as ive said earlier, it’s about the dread of losing your freedom, of being dominated by something you can’t fight back against. That kind of fear is harder to measure, but it’s powerful nonetheless. It’s the same reason the Primal Devils are stronger, they embody fears that are harder to define but instinctively felt in the day to day lives of humans.

Alright, admittedly I discounted that generally the fear of the Devil's concept is more important than fear of the Devil as an individual, and fear of governments would count as fear of Makima.

Ultimately tho, not every devil is meant to be compared based on how much damage they can physically do. The Gun Devil is a weapon of mass destruction, but devils like Makima, Santa Claus or the DD operate on completely different. Their power isn’t about DC, it’s about how their abilities reflect their concepts. Scaling them fairly means taking this into account instead of just focusing on raw feats. The narrative makes it clear that strength is as much about the specific concept and how much it is feared.

This I don't like however. [Character X is actually Biggatons it's just not demonstrated because of the Narrative] is a very YMMV argument. But that's subjective so I'm not gonna object to this bit, as much as I think 7-C Pochita getting dogpiled by zombies is really stupid.

Hence they should still scale regardless, primarily because of fear scaling.

What I will object to is this. Makima, Santa, etc. scaling to 20% Gun "for the narrative" results in character scaling that goes against the narrative.

In none of your four paragraphs did you address the issue of how scaling Nighttime Santa to 20% Gun results in absurdity like Small Town level+ Kishibe, or the Bomb Hybrid having nuclear-level AP despite nukes not existing.

And Nighttime Santa holding back doesn't work as an explanation anymore. I can accept Nighttime Santa backhanding Hybrid Denji with one-tenth her full strength. What I can't accept is Nighttime Santa backhanding Denji with one-two thousandth her full strength.

Edit: Hence x2, the very existence of Devils should be constantly powering up Makima.

Technically it's more like the fact that your government can sign away your life to a devil at any point should power up Makima, but semantics.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

This I don't like however. [Character X is actually Biggatons it's just not demonstrated because of the Narrative] is a very YMMV argument. But that's subjective so I'm not gonna object to this bit, as much as I think 7-C Pochita getting dogpiled by zombies is really stupid.

obviously each zombies are large building level

In none of your four paragraphs did you address the issue of how scaling Nighttime Santa to 20% Gun results in absurdity like Small Town level+ Kishibe, or the Bomb Hybrid having nuclear-level AP despite nukes not existing.

Watch Reze nuking a town in the movie, I'm calling it.

 

[Zabazab]

Alright, admittedly I discounted that generally the fear of the Devil's concept is more important than fear of the Devil as an individual, and fear of governments would count as fear of Makima.

I was under the impression that fearing a devil (individual) provided a greater boost than fearing the devil's Name, although this is not ever stated explocitly. Just based on Eternity Devil changing in reaction to Kobeni and Arai.

 

[GunshyFever]

Super Snip.

As I’ve explained, these characters have the status and scaling to justify them in that respective tier. Kishibe and Reze definitely wouldn’t scale to that level, nor should they. Nighttime Santa on the other hand, is explicitly shown to be above them, hell, even above Transformed Quanxi. The idea that she’s using just one-tenth of her strength is already a stretch, and going further to claim one-two-thousandth is even more unreasonable. If we’re looking at the scene logically and trying not to cherry pick, we have to treat that feat as an outlier. Why? Because Chainsaw Man had to light himself on fire just to stand a chance against her. It’s obvious she was adjusting her strength to the situation.

Is Fujimoto trying to powerscale? No, he’s not writing with that intent. But given the material we have, we’re working with the numbers and scaling provided and we have to make sense of it. At the end of the day, the scaling reflects the narrative more than specific feats (which is our entire goal) and Nighttime Santa’s portrayal as a threat that forced Denji to weaken her supports her placement in said teir. In this context, there’s no contradiction if we accept her tier as accurate while discarding questionable feats as outliers. Which is what we want to do rather than cherry pick. I'm sure none of us are willing to take guns being able to hurt Makima seriously, despite her durability feats against blunt objects or strikes, like Weakened Pochita.

We'll just have to make it work until we discover otherwise or new scaling routes.

 

[ElajRuengies]

Is Fujimoto trying to powerscale? No, he’s not writing with that intent. But given the material we have, we’re working with the numbers and scaling provided and we have to make sense of it. At the end of the day, the scaling reflects the narrative more than specific feats (which is our entire goal) and Nighttime Santa’s portrayal as a threat that forced Denji to weaken her supports her placement in said teir. In this context, there’s no contradiction if we accept her tier as accurate while discarding questionable feats as outliers.

Nighttime Santa's narrative portrayal, while being creepy, manipulative, sociopathic, and also really strong, is also nowhere close to 20% Gun's narrative portrayal as a natural disaster event rather than a monster, complete with second-precision timestamps of where shit-hit-the-fan like recordings of when Chernobyl went prompt critical, and an enormous list of all the dead's names.

Nighttime Santa doesn't get the next-level fear of the natural showcasing that 20% Gun does, nor does she get the next-level fear of the unnatural showcasing that Darkness does. She's just a terrible person whose powers have an annoying gimmick that Denji has to think around.

It would be disingenuous to scale Nighttime Santa to or above 20% Gun, when the story itself frames the latter with its own level of horror. And the likes of Hybrid Quanxi definitely shouldn't be backscaling from it.

Also, while regular guns are all over the place (Bullets bounce off Denji's saws and can't pierce completely through Long's forsarm, yet can penetrate Public Safety uniforms and Human Quanxi), 20% Gun still one-shot Makima with [Ability Activation: Begin firing toward Makima]. That wasn't an instant-headshot/heartshot like its previous abilities, as shown by how it missed a bazillion times, 20% Gun just hit Makima once and it killed her.

 

[GunshyFever]

We’ve already discussed that not all devils display the same level of destructive capacity, and I’ve shown clear examples like the Darkness Devil. Another prime example would be Pochita, who hasn’t shown anything close to the Gun Devil’s feats in terms of DC, yet is evidently stronger than it. This alone demonstrates why raw destructive feats don’t hold as much weight when it comes to fear scaling devils (or contract users?). Fear isn’t quantified by DC, it’s about the nature of the concept a devil embodies.

As for your claim that the 20% Gun Devil’s fear level is above Santa Claus’s, I’d argue the opposite. Her reach spans multiple dolls worldwide and as she describes herself, she’s merely "a drop of blood in an ocean" when compared to the magnitude of her entire doll network. That global level of fear and range is arguably worse than the localized terror caused by the 20% Gun Devil. Even in recent chapters, the ongoing fear surrounding the Chainsaw Man war is likely less oppressive than the nature of Santa’s influence. On top of that, Santa’s say's her self that everything she keeps coming back, shell be even more powerful due to her cultivating the power of Darkness. The 20% Gun Devil by contrast, is a massive weapon of destruction, yes, but fundamentally static in its nature.

Your point about the Gun Devil killing Makima is irrelevant because Makima has died the exact same way to regular guns. Using this as an anti-feat for Makima is meaningless unless your trying to shoot for 10-B Makima. What matters here isn’t Fujimoto isn't a powerscaler.

Just because Santa isn’t the size of a mountain or moving at lightning speed doesn’t mean her AP can’t be relative to the Gun Devil. As I’ve said before, Chainsaw Man operates on concepts of fear scaling, not feats alone.

 

[Zabazab]

Scaling Santa, Makima, and Quanxi to even 20% of the Gun Devil is silly. First of all they have no traditional scaling to the Gun. Secondly there's no way to actually quantify the fear scaling between them due to lack of statements— we can't know how feared Guns are relative to Conquest unless the manga tells us. We can't know how strong Darkness Santa is relative to Darkness itself because empowerment via eating devil fragments does not work that way.