Cell Saga scaling question

[Stefano4444]

Speaking about scaling, here is widely accepted that Buu Saga Base Goku is far superior to Frieza Saga SSj1 Goku thanks of statements and especially powerscaling (Buu Saga Base Goku > Supreme Kai > Buu Saga Piccolo > Android 18 > Android Saga SSj Vegeta > Frieza Saga SSj Goku), i'm correct?

Wouldn't that make Buu Saga Goku 'At least FTL+, possible higher'? If that the case, then his SSj1 Form alone would make him Massively FTL, since SSj1 Form = x40 times boost.

 

[Dark649]

Yes, i also included the MFTL speed upgrade in that, the other users should wait for it.

 

[Damage3245]

I might be forgetting something incredibly obvious (been a while since I read the Buu Saga) but how is Buu Saga Base Goku > Supreme Kai?

 

[Antoniofer]

I don't think they are, I mean, Piccolo is stronger than any base saiyan and yet he is weaker than Kai.

 

[Stefano4444]

I might be forgetting something incredibly obvious (been a while since I read the Buu Saga) but how is Buu Saga Base Goku > Supreme Kai?

Since he was able to lift the Z-Sword, a feat that only Base Gohan was able to perform with more difficulty (at least initially), while neither Kibito or Supreme Kai couldn't even move it a little, the latter the same who made Buu Saga Piccolo s**t his pants.

And remember in the previous saga Piccolo was able to equally match Android 17, the same cyborg that along with Android 18 is easily capable to defeat Super Saiyans such as Mirai Trunks and Vegeta back in the Android Saga.

Which make sense since Supreme Kai even stated than each Kaioshin could have been capable to oneshotting Frieza.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

I might be forgetting something incredibly obvious (been a while since I read the Buu Saga) but how is Buu Saga Base Goku > Supreme Kai?

I personally think that they at most 4-C IMO

Like, I know Gohan is rusty in the buu saga, but he barely pulled out the Z Sword in SSJ, which no other Kaioshin could.

 

[Damage3245]

> Yep, since he was able to lift the Z-Sword, a feat that only Base Gohan was able to do with more difficulty while neither Supreme Kai and Kibito couldn't even move it a little, the same dude who have make Buu Saga Piccolo s**t his pants.

Didn't Piccolo shit his pants because of their incredible status & authority? Not their power?

 

[Promestein]

Piccolo said Shin's power was in a different dimension than his own. Same wording Tien used to describe the power gap betweenh im and SSJ Goku.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

> Yep, since he was able to lift the Z-Sword, a feat that only Base Gohan was able to do with more difficulty while neither Supreme Kai and Kibito couldn't even move it a little, the same dude who have make Buu Saga Piccolo s**t his pants.
Didn't Piccolo shit his pants because of their incredible status & authority? Not their power?

While true... Still, for Piccolo to simply forfeit

 

[Damage3245]

It wouldn't be unreasonable for Piccolo to forfeit is he realized he was about to fight a Kaoshin considering his status / authority, but if the quote that Piccolo gave was that Shin's power was in a different dimension than that's fair enough. (Though sadly Shin went on to have no impressive showings at all.)

Well... actually Shin could temporarily restrain SSJ Gohan (briefly). So I guess that's something.

 

[Ugarik]

Btw 4-C high end ot low end ratio is 6.7 so we can't just skip it like before

 

[Stefano4444]

It wouldn't be unreasonable for Piccolo to forfeit is he realized he was about to fight a Kaoshin considering his status / authority, but if the quote that Piccolo gave was that Shin's power was in a different dimension than that's fair enough.

Even without Piccolo's statement, each Kaioshin was stated by Shin himself to be capable to oneshotting Frieza, and both Gohan and Goku were able to perform a physical feat that no current or past Kaioshin could accomplish.

 

[Damage3245]

Lifting Strength in DBZ/Super has always been kinda weird, hasn't it? Didn't SSJ Vegeta struggle to lift a guy that weighed over 1,000 tons?

 

[AKM sama]

Lifting Strength in DBZ/Super has always been kinda weird, hasn't it? Didn't SSJ Vegeta struggle to lift a guy that weighed over 1,000 tons?

In the manga.

 

[Js250476]

Goku has that infamous 40 tons feat from the Buu saga

But low end

 

[Antoniofer]

In Super manga, yes.

Although, I find iffy that base saiyans are stronger than Piccolo in Buu Saga, it would make the SS power up close to negligible.

 

[Damage3245]

Maybe (to try and make sense of it) we can say that the Kaoishin's have really weak lifting strength (did they even have a single impressive physical feat?) which is why Gohan and Goku could out-do them so easily in just lifting a sword.

 

[Stefano4444]

That's not the main point of the argument, the point is that the series clearly show that Buu Saga Base Goku > Shin > Final Form Frieza.

And lifting strength feats are irrelevant is a verse like this, were the physical strikes of the characters are far more impressive and more important than any heavy lifting.

 

[Damage3245]

The lifting the sword argument just shows that Goku's and Gohan's lifting strength >>> Shin's lifting strength.

 

[Antoniofer]

Reading the wiki article it says that Gohan was able to lift the sword once he transformed in SS, that would make him stronger than the Kais only by transformating. Someone should check.

 

[Stefano4444]

The lifting the sword argument just shows that Goku's and Gohan's lifting strength >>> Shin's lifting strength.

Which means Goku's Strength >>> Shin's Strength.

And since physical stats and Ki are correlated to each othe the everything from Attack Potency, Durability and Striking Strength is scaled as well and not just Lifting Strength.

 

[Stefano4444]

Reading the wiki article it says that Gohan was able to lift the sword once he transformed in SS, that would make him stronger than the Kais only by transformating. Someone should check.

Only initially, but then he returned in his Base Form and after a while he was capable to swing it without much difficulty, when before he could do it barely.

 

[Antoniofer]

Wouldn't that suggest that he became stronger while wielding it? I known is little reasonable, but if you needed to transform to lift something and seconds later swing it while is not transformed sounds pretty inconsistent and less reasonable than the other case.

 

[Stefano4444]

Actually know that i thing about it Gohan did say something like that.

http://southernlandlegacy.com/images/manga/dragon_ball/480/5.jpg

 

[Damage3245]

Which means Goku's Strength >>> Shin's Strength.

And since physical stats and Ki are correlated to each othe the everything from Attack Potency, Durability and Striking Strength is scaled as well and not just Lifting Strength.

I thought Lifting Strength =/= Striking Strength?

Why are you using terrible scans / translations for Dragon Ball? Viz ain't perfect but it's way better looking than that page.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

I use mangarock

https://mangarock.com/manga/mrs-serie-63595/chapter/mrs-chapter-64068

 

[AidenBrooks999]

Wouldn't that suggest that he became stronger while wielding it?

He did so, at first he could only use it as a Super saiyan, then he used it in base form with the same diff as base Goku

 

[Antoniofer]

Then it shouldn't scale to base saiyans, they are only stronger than Kais when they are SS (not counting mid-training Gohan, although we wouldn't add such key).

EDIT: read last post, although it still make SS multiplier negligible...

 

[AidenBrooks999]

Then it shouldn't scale to base saiyans, they are only stronger than Kais when they are SS

Yeah, basically.

Buu saga (aka rusty) SSJ Gohan is barely stronger than Shin, only truly surpassing him as a Super Saiyan 2

With that in mind, from Cell Saga, you think ASSJ Vegeta would be around Shin's level=SSJ Rusty Gohan?

 

[Damage3245]

Well, Perfect Cell was supposedly about as strong as Dabura.

And Shin seemed pretty scared / worried of Dabura.

 

[Antoniofer]

Welp, I think SS Gohan is considerable stronger than Shin since he was pretty impressed by his SS form, however, he is little reliable (he was impressed by Pui and Yakon's power despite being way above them). If it help, he placed a little above Second Grade SS Vegeta in this chart (used common knowledge from fans until the author dissapeared, then I started to update it by my own).

 

[AidenBrooks999]

Welp, I think SS Gohan is considerable stronger than Shin since he was pretty impressed by his SS form, however, he is little reliable (he was impressed by Pui and Yakon's power despite being way above them). If it help, he placed a little above Second Grade SS Vegeta in this chart (used common knowledge from fans until the author dissapeared, then I started to update it by my own).

It has some flaws IMO

(PD.: On a side note, lol, US Krillin and Tien are listed as sightly weaker than Namek saga base Goku)

 

[Antoniofer]

Yeah, pretty much like I do with the scaling in this wiki, I just make someone at least slightly stronger than its previous incarnation when there's no feats nor statements.

 

[Stefano4444]

I thought Lifting Strength =/= Striking Strength?

To an extend yes, Lifting Strength doesn't usually scale Striking Strength.

Either because Striking Strength is so far above Lifting Strength feats that scaling each other wouldn't make sense (Beerus had 4-D Striking Strength, but nothing suggest that he can move a neutron star), or because characters usually enhanced their physical strikes via a power source meaning it would be illogical to assume that their natural strength, where lifting strength come from, must be on the same level (unless proven otherwise).

Only in certain circumstances Lifting Strength feats can be used to scale Striking Strength, when the former had display more impressive feats compare with the latter (like in the case of Big Boss from Metal Gear, or Superman from the DCEU).

But again this isn't the point, the point is that the Z-Sword feat wasn't merely a display of superior lifting strength but of superior level of power as well, since Base Goku and Base Gohan having superior lifting strength show that they must have in general superior physical stats and greater Ki (since physical power is also depend by Ki) than Kibito or Shin.

That doesn't mean now Lifting Strength = Striking Strength, they still remain in two separated categories, only that:

- Goku's Lifting Strength > Kibito's Lifting Strength and Goku's Striking Strength > Kibito's Striking Strength.

And not:

- Goku's Lifting Strength = Goku's Striking Strength > Kibito's Lifting Strength = Kibito's Striking Strength.

 

[Antvasima]

So is somebody competent willing to come up with a new scaling system for the Namek and Cell sagas Dragon Ball?

A new thread might be useful as well.

 

[Dark649]

I'm working on it, once is done i will post it and then close the threads.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the help.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

I'm working on it, once is done i will post it and then close the threads.

Mind if we talk about it?

I was also working on that, so we evade posting two different scaling

 

[Dark649]

I made the thread, Aiden you can post your version in a comment.