CC Goku vs Kratos

[TiltedFN]

i mean...........not everything, again, Toppo and the other GoDs Aura didn't constantly erased the floor that was right bellow them, or that they directly hit with, the Aura can, and mostly, does that if the user wants it to, likewise it doesn't if they don't


unless the user doesn't want it to do that, which given Goku's character.....he wouldn't want at first, most likely he would want to fight him, which given his SR would make that happen, thus preventing Kratos from being erased

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Type 4 is kind of nebulous right now. Acausality is going to be revised again by Ultima at some point anyway. Right now, I don't think it does much innately beyond what is specified for the character. Kratos has type 1 Acasaulity as well which protects him to changes in the past but not the future. It should work on him in theory.

I understand

Edit: I was told the EE is passive in the aura. Is it not?

Only from the Gods and Toppo

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

i am not sure if that is equivalent? i mean......any attempt to erase his past to affect him wouldn't work, true........but i dunno if his includes the future as well, nor am i sure if such a thing would prevent history erasure

It says this on the randomness page, that it would be resistance to fate manipulation, from what i remember fate manipulation affects the future

Type 4: Irregular Causality: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality. This has the potential to grant them resistances to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition, among others, depending on its shown capabilities which should be specified on the given page.

 

[omegabronic]

Ngl, this is a pedantic point. We accept and know that hakai energy intrinsically erases things.

yeah, we equally accept that a user can control that to not erase things if they don't want to

You can argue Toppo wasn’t attempting to erase Frieza, but Frieza has tanked it before Toppo.

..........what are you even talking about....? 1 i don't even understand what you are trying to say here? and 2 all i said is "the user can control if their hakai erases things or not, therefore if they don't want it to erase things, it won't"........i never argued that it is the default to not erase or anything like that

Though that would still mean they’d have to manually disable it, not that it’s something that doesn’t happen normally when it’s accepted and stated to be the case.

yeah.......that is what i said............are we talking in the same wavelength? that is my point, Goku wouldn't want to erase Kratos immediatly, he would want to fight him, therefore he would disable it so that he would be able to fight him

plus......Time Power's passive Subjective Reality would make Goku's desire to fight this bald guy come true, so it would change reality to make it so that he and Kratos actually have a fight just like Goku wants.........unless you are arguing that Goku wouldn't want to fight Kratos at all? which again given his characterization.......seems unlikely

 

[Tyranno223]

basically now it needs specification from the verse of what it does for one to decide its effects, currently in Kratos' profile, his seems to make changes in his History not work against him, would need a GoW supporter to comfirm the details tho

The justification is weird. The tweet outright says there is a time loop and yet says Kratos is unaffected by it. The WoG outright says both Kratos undergo the same events when the justification claims the events were erased. No wonder there's so many downgrade threads.

Regardless, it's only the past.

Edit: The "operates differently" justification also only details perception and presence if anything. Nothing that lets him defend against being erased.

 

[omegabronic]

why are you like this?

behold in pure aw as i counter Emoji you

 

[omegabronic]

The justification is weird. The tweet outright says there is a time loop and yet says Kratos is unaffected by it. The WoG outright says both Kratos undergo the same events when the justification claims the events were erased. No wonder there's so many downgrade threads.

Regardless, it's only the past.

like i said, would need a GoW supporter to come here and explain it better, altho i am not sure if even if true it would change much

 

[omegabronic]

It says this on the randomness page, that it would be resistance to fate manipulation, from what i remember fate manipulation affects the future

well, not exactly

"Type 4: Irregular Causality: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality. This has the potential to grant them resistances to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition, among others, depending on its shown capabilities which should be specified on the given page."
it says that it CAN give people such abilities and resistances, but now it doesn't give them by default

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

So we’re gonna ignore Toppo’s page that tells us that he resists his own aura because it’s passive?

Ngl bro idrc anymore you can think how you want, but it’s accepted to be passive on his page. I’m dipping.

 

[TiltedFN]

why are you like this?

behold in pure aw as i counter Emoji you

Idk , you're just funny sometimes, like the stuff you say

 

[Robo432343]

goku fra

 

[Tyranno223]

i mean...........not everything, again, Toppo and the other GoDs Aura didn't constantly erased the floor that was right bellow them, or that they directly hit with, the Aura can, and mostly, does that if the user wants it to, likewise it doesn't if they don't

Does the aura even touch the floor? Regardless, it's probable Toppo is either keeping it from erasing his footing or it's just that Toei didn't think about it. Everything that touches the aura minus that was erased. Rocks, ki blasts, etc. Exceptions were Frieza (who has resistances), Vegeta (also resists and Toppo was specifically not trying to erase him as Belmond ordered) and Android 17 (ditto with Vegeta. Toppo isn't trying to be eliminated).

 

[omegabronic]

Does the aura even touch the floor? Regardless, it's probable Toppo is either keeping it from erasing his footing

that is entirely my point, if they choose that they don't want something to be erased, it won't be..........i don't understand why people are arguing against what i am saying........by saying exactly what i am saying? this is a peculiar situation

So we’re gonna ignore Toppo’s page that tells us that he resists his own aura because it’s passive?

......excuse me? when.........when have i said that Toppo doesn't resist his own aura? my dude, what are you on about? i am saying the same thing you said, that they can just control something for it to not erase what they don't want to be erased...........how did that got turned into "Toppo isn't erasing himself, so it isn't passive" for you to feel the need to say this?

what do you think my argument is?

Ngl bro idrc anymore you can think how you want, but it’s accepted to be passive on his page. I’m dipping.

......being passive doesn't mean they can't control it to not erase things, it doesn't mean they can't deactivate it if they so want, Toppo did just that for Freeza...........don't tell me you actually think i am arguing against Hakai erasing things without the need for the user to want that.........again i ask, what do you think my argument is?

goku fra

hold on, what can Kratos do against the Subjective Reality?

 

[Robo432343]

what do you think my argument is?

bro you tell us

 

[omegabronic]

bro you tell us

how could i know what his own perception of what my argument is......is? wouldn't that be something only he knows?

 

[Huesito88]

well, not exactly

"Type 4: Irregular Causality: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality. This has the potential to grant them resistances to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition, among others, depending on its shown capabilities which should be specified on the given page."
it says that it CAN give people such abilities and resistances, but now it doesn't give them by default

Then supporters of GOW should go and make a CRT to add the affects that their in verse Aca 4 give, rather than us waiting for something that may or may not get accepted later on. (For the moment just ignore it)

 

[Tyranno223]

that is entirely my point, if they choose that they don't want something to be erased, it won't be..........i don't understand why people are arguing against what i am saying........by saying exactly what i am saying? this is a peculiar situation

Ah, okay. I assumed the issue was that it had to be consciously activated. C.C Goku does (according to page) go all out from the start to win fights. I have my doubts about this (to an extent. He does go all out more than other Gokus minus Xeno, but he still has his moments), but per page, he wouldn't hold back against Kratos if he can erase him.

Also, yeah, he seems to lack resistance to subjective reality.

 

[omegabronic]

Ah, okay. I assumed the issue was that it had to be consciously activated. C.C Goku does (according to page) go all out from the start to win fights. I have my doubts about this (to an extent. He does go all out more than other Gokus minus Xeno, but he still has his moments), but per page, he wouldn't hold back against Kratos if he can erase him.

okay, thank you for properly answering my concern........but looking at the page, it says:
"but more serious and doesn't drag out fights, always goes full power form the start if his opponent is a serious matter, even being willing to kill."

so now the question is, would he see as someone who is a serious matter enough for him to want to beat him without even fighting?

more clearly asking, would he see Kratos as a threat big enough for him to ignore his wish for fighting as he does for what he considers "serious matters"?

Also, yeah, he seems to lack resistance to subjective reality.

huh, oh well, ig since it can't affect concepts like Hope and Magic then......ig Kratos is still ok and able to fight?

 

[Tyranno223]

okay, thank you for properly answering my concern........but looking at the page, it says:
"but more serious and doesn't drag out fights, always goes full power form the start if his opponent is a serious matter, even being willing to kill."

so now the question is, would he see as someone who is a serious matter enough for him to want to beat him without even fighting?

more clearly asking, would he see Kratos as a threat big enough for him to ignore his wish for fighting as he does for what he considers "serious matters"?

No worries! I would say Kratos is a clearly serious matter. He is evidently powerful (Goku can sense this) and, considering it's GoW 3 Kratos, a very violent and angry man exuding killing intent. This Goku is serious enough to consider people trying to kill him (that are powerful) to be a serious matter.

 

[Spicy78]

what's kratos' starting move?

 

[omegabronic]

No worries! I would say Kratos is a clearly serious matter. He is evidently powerful (Goku can sense this)

i mean.......can he? Magic in GoW, which would be the equivalent of Ki, is conceptual and abstract in nature, so i am pretty sure Goku can't sense it

plus......Goku scales to destroying infinite Low 1-C Structures, Kratos only scales to 1, so Goku is literally infinite times stronger than him, so he wouldn't be powerful at all from Goku's perspective

and, considering it's GoW 3 Kratos, a very violent and angry man exuding killing intent. This Goku is serious enough to consider people trying to kill him (that are powerful) to be a serious matter.

well........Kratos isn't, at least, not for Goku, so would that logic even apply?

 

[Tyranno223]

i mean.......can he? Magic in GoW, which would be the equivalent of Ki, is conceptual and abstract in nature, so i am pretty sure Goku can't sense it

Eh, verse equalisation is funky, in theory he should be due to it since they're both life energy.

That aside, if C.C Goku can't sense him, he will definitely be cautious considering even far less sereious Gokus (Z and Super) were cautious in a similar situation against the androids and the Trio de Danger. Albeit, he had prior info about the former.

plus......Goku scales to destroying infinite Low 1-C Structures, Kratos only scales to 1, so Goku is literally infinite times stronger than him, so he wouldn't be powerful at all from Goku's perspective


well........Kratos isn't, at least, not for Goku, so would that logic even apply?

Fair point, but this Goku does go serious against even far weaker threats. He used UI Omen (his strongest accessible form at the time) for fodder opponents to him like the Golden brothers, Frieza and Cooler. At the very least, Kratos would be registered as a threat to the multiverse (even if not the totality) with his level of power. That should be enough for Goku to be serious.

 

[omegabronic]

Eh, verse equalisation is funky, in theory he should be due to it since they're both life energy.

that only works if the power systems/energy are similar enough..........in this case i don't think they have anything similar about each other, other than the "life energy", but even then that is

That aside, if C.C Goku can't sense him, he will definitely be cautious considering even far less sereious Gokus (Z and Super) were cautious in a similar situation against the androids and the Trio de Danger. Albeit, he had prior info about the former.

yeah, but being cautions =/= instantly going to kill this guy, so i think he would want to test Kratos out first, in which he would probably one shot, then Kratos comes back, anything after that? i am not sure

Fair point, but this Goku does go serious against even far weaker threats. He used UI Omen (his strongest accessible form at the time) for fodder opponents to him like the Golden brothers, Frieza and Cooler.

i mean, he knows and pretty much doesn't like Freeza and Cooler, arguably even actively dislikes them, so imo that isn't a very good example

At the very least, Kratos would be registered as a threat to the multiverse (even if not the totality) with his level of power. That should be enough for Goku to be serious.

eh.........no? like, Kratos isn't enough to actually destroy.....anything other than 1 timeline, altho i see your point that this would still be enough for him to be considered "dangerous", altho, going back to the point of him being unable to be Ki sensed by Goku, i guess it is kind of moot to talk about this

 

[Tyranno223]

that only works if the power systems/energy are similar enough..........in this case i don't think they have anything similar about each other, other than the "life energy", but even then that is

That's kinda the thing, Ki is life energy and so is magic. Or rather, life energy in GoW is wound up in magic. Idk, I think there's enough ground but this can be debated.

yeah, but being cautions =/= instantly going to kill this guy, so i think he would want to test Kratos out first, in which he would probably one shot, then Kratos comes back, anything after that? i am not sure


i mean, he knows and pretty much doesn't like Freeza and Cooler, arguably even actively dislikes them, so imo that isn't a very good example

The point was he tends to go all out or at least serious more often than not. Thing about Heroes is that pretty much every foe is an old enemy of Goku or known enemies of his friends or peers he knows are gonna be tough, so those are the best examples. That's the only basis we have, thus it's the one that is on page.

eh.........no? like, Kratos isn't enough to actually destroy.....anything other than 1 timeline, altho i see your point that this would still be enough for him to be considered "dangerous", altho, going back to the point of him being unable to be Ki sensed by Goku, i guess it is kind of moot to talk about this

Goku gets serious about 1 universe or world being destroyed in Heroes, it's enough for him.

 

[Tyranno223]

what's kratos' starting move?

Punching or stabbing if it's power of hope.

 

[Spicy78]

Punching or stabbing if it's power of hope.

can he do anything to bypass that nasty ap difference? maybe dura neg or some magic shenanigans?

 

[omegabronic]

That's kinda the thing, Ki is life energy and so is magic. Or rather, life energy in GoW is wound up in magic. Idk, I think there's enough ground but this can be debated.

unless you want to argue that Ki somehow has the equivalent of being a concept, being composed of a being's manifestation of their form, Luck and Mind, as well as being made out of literal Chaos..........then you can't really argue, GoW's Magic is just way, WAY too different from Ki for one to argue equalization to happen

also isn't Magic in DB different from Ki, making the equalization with Ki not work by default?

The point was he tends to go all out or at least serious more often than not. Thing about Heroes is that pretty much every foe is an old enemy of Goku or known enemies of his friends though so those are the best examples. That's the only basis we have, thus it's the one that is on page.

i mean, we can still use examples of DBS and DB to see how he acts for those who want to cause him harm without him having a connection to them......no?

Goku gets serious about 1 universe or world being destroyed in Heroes, it's enough for him.

i guess you are right, let's focus on the Magic vs Ki point then

 

[omegabronic]

can he do anything to bypass that nasty ap difference? maybe dura neg or some magic shenanigans?

concept manipulation with attacks and.....several of his Magic attacks, also he would instantly know about Goku's with his cosmic awareness on all combat and conflicts

also he conceptually invulnerable......so Goku can't really harm him in anyway, apparently that extends to Abilities as well

 

[Tyranno223]

can he do anything to bypass that nasty ap difference? maybe dura neg or some magic shenanigans?

Concept Manip (Type 1) is one surefire method.

unless you want to argue that Ki somehow has the equivalent of being a concept, being composed of a being's manifestation of their form, Luck and Mind, as well as being made out of literal Chaos..........then you can't really argue, GoW's Magic is just way, WAY too different from Ki for one to argue equalization to happen

also isn't Magic in DB different from Ki, making the equalization with Ki not work by default?

That's the thing. Ki is life energy and magic is separate in DB. In GoW, they are one and the same. Verse equalisation should make Kratos able to be ki sensed as his power is life energy... but then GoW magic is also life energy while DB's isn't. I prefer to just simply say Goku can sense his life energy and power level while being unable to sense specifics of magic.

i mean, we can still use examples of DBS and DB to see how he acts for those who want to cause him harm without him having a connection to them......no?

Maybe? He is a different personality at this point in his life. Sure they're close enough, but this one is more serious and to the point (although again, I still question the degree that the page supposes). The events of Super did happen, but he's been through arcs of Heroes at this point. The decision making of Heroes Goku is different.

 

[omegabronic]

Concept Manip (Type 1) is one surefire method.

That's the thing. Ki is life energy and magic is separate in DB. In GoW, they are one and the same. Verse equalisation should make Kratos able to be ki sensed as his power is life energy... but then GoW magic is also life energy while DB's isn't. I prefer to just simply say Goku can sense his life energy and power level while being unable to sense specifics of magic.

Verse equalization only works if the power systems are similar enough.........they aren't in this case, so it doesn't apply, them being life force is not similar enough given all other complex stuff Magic is in GoW

Maybe? He is a different personality at this point in his life. Sure they're close enough, but this one is more serious and to the point (although again, I still question the degree that the page supposes). The events of Super did happen, but he's been through arcs of Heroes at this point. The decision making of Heroes Goku is different.

yeah but, in lack of any example.........would we really have a choice but to go with what i said?

 

[Tyranno223]

Verse equalization only works if the power systems are similar enough.........they aren't in this case, so it doesn't apply, them being life force is not similar enough given all other complex stuff Magic is in GoW


yeah but, in lack of any example.........would we really have a choice but to go with what i said?

Well, I suppose I'll drop the Ki sense part for now.

I don't think the two personalities of Goku are really compatible it's like using DB Goku for DBZ Goku. They're two different points in his life.

Heroes Goku just tends to be more on the allout side.

 

[Spicy78]

going by this description, i don't think that goku would EE kratos as a first move. sure, he definitely woudn't hold back, but to assume that he would use the most broken haxes in his arsenal as a first move is overreaching imo. i think he would just punch kratos very hard, only for kratos to die and come back instantly

 

[Robo432343]

this thing got recently accepted regarding Kratos' magic

"TL;DR: GoW's magic system does not innately harm the soul, nor does anyone who survives being blasted with magic resist soul manipulation by extension. I'm not sure much about any of the pages would need to change, admittedly; The explanation page doesn't outright say magic can destroy the soul, and that just seems to be something GoW supporters will assert on the forum but not on the actual pages. While there's probably gonna be some debate over whether or not being a manifestation of/the same as the soul would be soul manipulation in and of itself, I'd like to request that we not focus on that for now since this thread is already gonna be a massive shitshow. Let's keep it focused on magic's ability to destroy the soul."

 

[Spicy78]

going by this description, i don't think that goku would EE kratos as a first move. sure, he definitely woudn't hold back, but to assume that he would use the most broken haxes in his arsenal as a first move is overreaching imo. i think he would just punch kratos very hard, only for kratos to die and come back instantly

did goku fight a regeneration/resurrection user that was constantly coming back after goku killed them? if yes, i'd say that by experience alone he'd intuit that kratos is the same type of enemy (he's an extraordinary combatant after all), and insantly go for EE. if not, then i see goku trying to strike down kratos with hits a couple more times, and use his broken haxes later

if kratos sees that goku is constantly one-shotting him every time he comes back and that there's no way that he's beating goku by throwing hands, he'd definitely pull some conceptual/magic shenanigans instantly

 

[omegabronic]

this thing got recently accepted regarding Kratos' magic

"TL;DR: GoW's magic system does not innately harm the soul, nor does anyone who survives being blasted with magic resist soul manipulation by extension. I'm not sure much about any of the pages would need to change, admittedly; The explanation page doesn't outright say magic can destroy the soul, and that just seems to be something GoW supporters will assert on the forum but not on the actual pages. While there's probably gonna be some debate over whether or not being a manifestation of/the same as the soul would be soul manipulation in and of itself, I'd like to request that we not focus on that for now since this thread is already gonna be a massive shitshow. Let's keep it focused on magic's ability to destroy the soul."

eh........well......no one said that being hit by Magic iherently destroys the soul.......but Kratos has magic that does that as well as literally being able to do that with his bare hands when not even using magic.......plus this is PoH which.......pretty much still has the Concept manip regardless if the standard magic has or not

 

[omegabronic]

did goku fight a regeneration/resurrection user that was constantly coming back after goku killed them? if yes, i'd say that by experience alone he'd intuit that kratos is the same type of enemy (he's an extraordinary combatant after all), and insantly go for EE. if not, then i see goku trying to strike down kratos with hits a couple more times, and use his broken haxes later

if kratos sees that goku is constantly one-shotting him every time he comes back and that there's no way that he's beating goku by throwing hands, he'd definitely pull some conceptual/magic shenanigans instantly

Kratos would automatically knows every fight Goku ever had due to his Cosmic Awareness, so if he sees that Goku has the power to kill him, he might just pull that up from the begining

 

[Spicy78]

Kratos would automatically knows every fight Goku ever had due to his Cosmic Awareness, so if he sees that Goku has the power to kill him, he might just pull that up from the begining

damn, then kratos fra