Castlevania Plot Manipulation Adjustments and Revisions

[Phsccarvalho]

My proposition is this:
Plot Manipulation and Reality Warping (The powers of Chaos can rewrite the entire narrative it's in to ensure it being the winner, and overflow into reality, can alsowarp the fabric of reality when he transforms)

Would be changed to this

Text Manipulation and Plot Manipulation:

(Creatures of Chaos can utilize the power of chaos to write cruel endings for their targets into Reality and rewrite the narrative of the world itself; with the results of those changes overturning events in history and overwriting reality)

Reality Warping
(Whenever creatures of Chaos transform they warp the fabric of reality around them)

But not all chaos creatures have text manipulation. If you only consider the common enemies, it would only be the magic book, since it has this specific skill.

Unless you consider Grimoire monsters rewriting their own world to be Plot Manipulation and Text Manipulation.

 

[Ss3micah]

But not all chaos creatures have text manipulation. If you only consider the common enemies, it would only be the magic book, since it has this specific skill.

As I understand it
The Magic Book is one of the most fodder creatures of chaos. It’s ability to manipulate Text comes from its limited connection and understanding of the power of Chaos. So it stands to reason that creatures of Chaos like Dracula and the like who have an in-depth mastery, deep connection and understanding of the power of chaos can likely use these powers since it’s primarily the power of chaos that lets the Magic book use Text Hax

Unless you consider Grimoire monsters rewriting their own world to be Plot Manipulation and Text Manipulation.

Nahhh
The Grimoire monsters use the power of chaos to rewrite the narrative of their own world. That I consider plot Hax. The fact that the Grimoires are books with Texts can also imply Text Hax. It’s the method of execution that interests me. When creatures of darkness change the narrative, even though it’s expected, it’s never explicitly stated that they change the narrative by altering the texts in the books.

So because their is no direct mention of using Texts to change the narrative. I would consider what the Creatures of cause and the Grimoire does it’s Just mainly Plot Hax rather than equal application of Plot and Text Hax

Not saying Text Manipulation isn’t involve just saying any evidence of its involvement is more supposition than explicit

 

[Phsccarvalho]

As I understand it
The Magic Book is one of the most fodder creatures of chaos. It’s ability to manipulate Text comes from its limited connection and understanding of the power of Chaos. So it stands to reason that creatures of Chaos like Dracula and the like who have an in-depth mastery, deep connection and understanding of the power of chaos can likely use these powers since it’s primarily the power of chaos that lets the Magic book use Text Hax

I understand the rationale for beings like Dracula to also be able to use these abilities, but where does the scale go? For example, we have Joachim, a vampire/chaos creature stronger than common enemies (since he's a boss), but he doesn't even come close to beings like Death. Would he and beings comparable to him have Text Manipulation?

So how deep into the art of chaos do you need to be to access this ability?

Nahhh
The Grimoire monsters use the power of chaos to rewrite the narrative of their own world. That I consider plot Hax. The fact that the Grimoires are books with Texts can also imply Text Hax. It’s the method of execution that interests me. When creatures of darkness change the narrative, even though it’s expected, it’s never explicitly stated that they change the narrative by altering the texts in the books.

So because their is no direct mention of using Texts to change the narrative. I would consider what the Creatures of cause and the Grimoire does it’s Just mainly Plot Hax rather than equal application of Plot and Text Hax

Not saying Text Manipulation isn’t involve just saying any evidence of its involvement is more supposition than explicit

During a portion of the game it is said that "the contents of the book have changed" and that it has been "overwritten" (1:27:02 - 1:27:08). Would that imply that the text was changed?

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I think it would be easier if Grimorio's changes were Plot Manipulation and Text Manipulation. So all chaos creatures would have these capabilities, but even so, something bothers me. For the Grimorio to be altered, multiple chaos creatures have to wield the chaos power right (correct me if I'm wrong)? And during the game, the player has to kill creatures of chaos and go "cleaning" the chaotic energy.

So the power of chaos has the ability to Manipulate Plot and Text, but as far as I know, it took several creatures to change the Grimorio (I could be wrong, if so, please correct me). Beings like Dracula and creatures of chaos with power comparable or close to his, I understand having those powers. But what about chaos creatures like Joachim? What would be boss level, like medusa and etc? Would he have the ability to use Plot and Text Manipulation? The bosses in Portrait of Ruin could support Brauner's paintings, which were worlds, one of those bosses was Medusa, and here Joachim is comparable to Medusa. So does he have the necessary amount of chaotic power?

I know it's already accepted that he has Plot Manipulation, I'm just asking a question about it because of my reasoning.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

@Phsccarvalho the Magic books aren't just altering the pages though, they're having an actual effect on the real world when you see those magic channeling beams tied to Simon Belmont's being where they're trying to affect him with their magic in the game, which is elaborated in the bestiary to using the author's power to create cruel endings.

It has already been mentioned here that the same effect as "writing endings" can be done with Text Manipulation.

About the "Author" thing, I already talked about. The authors of these books were mages who obviously had magical powers. The mages' souls were delivered in heavy tomes of parchment, and consequently, the pages of the books inherited their dark powers.

It is not the literal power of being an Author who writes a book and so on.

I agree they are "writing", as descriptions of Castlevania are often straightforward. So I agree with the Text Manipulation side, because Books inherited the dark powers of their authors, not the literal power of being an Author.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

My proposition is this:
Plot Manipulation and Reality Warping (The powers of Chaos can rewrite the entire narrative it's in to ensure it being the winner, and overflow into reality, can alsowarp the fabric of reality when he transforms)

Would be changed to this

Text Manipulation and Plot Manipulation:

(Creatures of Chaos can utilize the power of chaos to write cruel endings for their targets into Reality and rewrite the narrative of the world itself; with the results of those changes overturning events in history and overwriting reality)

Reality Warping
(Whenever creatures of Chaos transform they warp the fabric of reality around them)

I am gonna ask this again is there any feat for affecting real world? Because world inside Grimoire and outside being same for character doesn't automatically mean Grimoire can affect real world. As I explained you can affect the real world by reality warping+ plot manipulation.

Also the "Rewrote the narrative" you see there is this problem occurs. When this talk was on going the character who made the statement was not affected by anyway otherthan Jonathan guy becoming weak. Which is not that affective as a plot manipulation. It can also be done by Reality warping, Text Manipulation and Power Nullification. You don't necessarily need Plot Manipulation to do so.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I am gonna ask this again is there any feat for affecting real world? Because world inside Grimoire and outside being same for character

I think you're not getting the Grimoire thing right.

1 - The Grimoire is said to be a world(27:18 - 27:24).

2 - Magically speaking, the Real World and the World of the Grimoire are the same thing. And one of Charlotte Aulin's examples is Brauner's paintings, and even Jonathan talks about how things were real.(12:34 - 13:00)

3 - The monsters within the Grimoire are altering the contents of the Grimoire itself with the power of chaos.(1:27:00 - 1:27:17, the timing is longer).

If the Real World and Grimoire World are the same thing, then the logic is that Plot Manipulation would work in the Real World, since it's the same thing. Why wouldn't it work in the Real World?

And about the overflowing into reality just materializing monsters thing. One thing does not cancel the other. Not only was it possible to alter the Grimoire's contents because of the power of chaos, it could also allow the Grimoire 's monsters to materialize into the Real World. If the only chaos power in the Real World was to make monsters materialize, then Dracula and other characters whose power source is Chaos wouldn't have even half of their abilities.

doesn't automatically mean Grimoire can affect real world.

The issue is not The Grimoire affecting the Real World, but the powers of chaos.

Also the "Rewrote the narrative" you see there is this problem occurs. When this talk was on going the character who made the statement was not affected by anyway otherthan Jonathan guy becoming weak. Which is not that affective as a plot manipulation. It can also be done by Reality warping, Text Manipulation and Power Nullification. You don't necessarily need Plot Manipulation to do so.

This Jonathan you are looking at belongs to the Grimoire World. This Jonathan is not the same one from the Real World, he is from the Grimoire World. And during the game, he is one of the Grimoire heroes who are summoned to help fight the forces of darkness.

Jonathan was weakened/limited because the contents of the Grimoire (his world) were changed for this to happen.

Você não precisa de Manipulação de Trama para tornar alguém fraco/limitado, mas isso não significa que você não possa usar Manipulação de Trama para tornar alguém fraco/limitado.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I think you're not getting the Grimoire thing right.

1 - The Grimoire is said to be a world(27:18 - 27:24).

2 - Magically speaking, the Real World and the World of the Grimoire are the same thing. And one of Charlotte Aulin's examples is Brauner's paintings, and even Jonathan talks about how things were real.(12:34 - 13:00)

Yes I already seen it but can you check immersion ability because whatever mentioned here is clear cut statement for that.

3 - The monsters within the Grimoire are altering the contents of the Grimoire itself with the power of chaos.(1:27:00 - 1:27:17, the timing is longer).

I get that but what I am saying that power has zero display in real world

If the Real World and Grimoire World are the same thing, then the logic is that Plot Manipulation would work in the Real World, since it's the same thing. Why wouldn't it work in the Real World?

It's talked about how pulling weapons in from the Grimoire being real & so both content in Grimoire and real world are magically same but you see Grimoire already contains some kinda story if i am correct but real world don't.

And about the overflowing into reality just materializing monsters thing. One thing does not cancel the other. Not only was it possible to alter the Grimoire's contents because of the power of chaos, it could also allow the Grimoire 's monsters to materialize into the Real World. If the only chaos power in the Real World was to make monsters materialize, then Dracula and other characters whose power source is Chaos wouldn't have even half of their abilities.

The issue is not The Grimoire affecting the Real World, but the powers of chaos.


This Jonathan you are looking at belongs to the Grimoire World. This Jonathan is not the same one from the Real World, he is from the Grimoire World. And during the game, he is one of the Grimoire heroes who are summoned to help fight the forces of darkness.

Jonathan was weakened/limited because the contents of the Grimoire (his world) were changed for this to happen.

Você não precisa de Manipulação de Trama para tornar alguém fraco/limitado, mas isso não significa que você não possa usar Manipulação de Trama para tornar alguém fraco/limitado.

Before I answer this. I want to know if the AP rating in each character profile for 2C. Is that comes from destroying contents inside Grimoire or the real world?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Yes I already seen it but can you check immersion ability because whatever mentioned here is clear cut statement for that.

As far as I know the skill of immersion is getting into books, paintings, etc.

Characters even have the immersion ability, which is already listed in their profiles.

But the difference is that there really is a world in the Grimoire, different from an ordinary book.

It's talked about how pulling weapons in from the Grimoire being real & so both content in Grimoire and real world are magically same but you see Grimoire already contains some kinda story if i am correct but real world don't.

I didn't quite understand this comment.

Charlotte also uses the example of Brownie's paintings, which are described as new worlds. And Jonathan talks about how real it was

Before I answer this. Do the AP rating in each character profile for 2C. Is that comes from destroying contents inside Grimoire or the real world?

The 2C comes from the Time Reaper threatening to erase the Castlevania timelines.

Attack Potency: Low Multiverse level (Threatened[64] to erase[65] all the[28] Castlevania timelines[25])

I was referring to the power of chaos, the magic of chaos. The source of power for all creatures of chaos is chaos. And Dracula, like others, use chaos magic and from there do several things.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

The 2C comes from the Time Reaper threatening to erase the Castlevania timelines.

Attack Potency: Low Multiverse level (Threatened[64] to erase[65] all the[28] Castlevania timelines[25])

I was referring to the power of chaos, the magic of chaos. The source of power for all creatures of chaos is chaos. And Dracula, like others, use chaos magic and from there do several things.

Is this timeline exists inside the Grimoire or outside real world?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Is this timeline exists inside the Grimoire or outside real world?

In the Real world.

There wasn't even a Grimoire of Souls game back then.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

In the Real world.
There wasn't even a Grimoire of Souls game back then.

Then I guess Manipulating Grimoire still stands as text manipulation

Create/modify the reality in the writing of books - translated into the reality of all the events recorded in the book (while accompanied by the creation of the new world)

 

[Theglassman12]

@Ss3micah warping the fabric of reality when transforming is a Death and Dracula thing, the other creatures of chaos don't have that ability, only the narrative rewrite. The plot and text description is fine by me, I'll redraft the explanation when I wake up.

@Phsccarvalho You do at least agree they don't just affect what's on their pages since anyone that encounters them would fall under the influence of their powers?

@EldemadeDityjon Why would it not affect the real world when Charlotte literally says when it comes to magical properties the grimoire and real world are one and the same? Literally none of your arguments have

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

@EldemadeDityjon Why would it not affect the real world when Charlotte literally says when it comes to magical properties the grimoire and real world are one and the same? Literally none of your arguments have

I already explained this part she was talking about taking out weapons and other items from book and going in and out of the book. It's clear cut how Immersion ability works.

Immersion

Immersion is an ability which allows one to cross the boundary between fiction and reality and enter the imaginary locations depicted in books, paintings, movies etc. The places and time periods accessed through this ability are conceptual, as in they do not exist in reality, but users of this...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Users can use this ability to retrieve weapons or other useful tools from fiction,

It's your burden to prove that ability works in Real World not just in books. I am not the one who claiming it works in real world. My stance is based on how wiki standard defines the ability. There are tons of abilities with small difference. Here clear cut this works like this

Create/modify the reality in the writing of books - translated into the reality of all the events recorded in the book (while accompanied by the creation of the new world)

Also creating world based this. LMAO nowhere seen any statement which backs up this level ot type.

• or the manipulation of the characters and events of the real world, comparable with that as a regular writer can manipulate the characters of his novel.

Text Manipulation+ Reality Warping ≠ Text Manipulation & Plot Manipulation

Nowhere I see the manipulating things in real world like a author. This is your part of burden to prove it not mine.

I am even Clearly linking the wiki pages and quoting the lines so that you can understand why whatever those characters doing falls under text manipulation not plot manipulation but you are ignoring it.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

@Phsccarvalho You do at least agree they don't just affect what's on their pages since anyone that encounters them would fall under the influence of their powers?

But of course?
The dark power comes from your pages, and from Text Manipulation, several things can be done, with one of them being the materialization of events. I can understand your interpretation of the description of the Magical Books. Every time I read the description, not only does my interpretation come back, but yours. But I think this should be kept as Text Manipulation as a safe point. For Plot Manipulation, I think we should focus on the Grimoire since it's a something grander and more explicit than the Magic Books.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I already explained this part she was talking about taking out weapons and other items from book and going in and out of the book. It's clear cut how Immersion ability works.

And you ignored Brauner's paintings.

Charlotte also used Brauner's paintings as an example.

Charlotte - I think we've already experienced this first hand. Remember the worlds inside the portraits?

Jonathan - Brauner... You're right. Looking back on it even now, that was as real as it gets.

You had asked about the Ap 2C of the characters.

Other Castlevania characters have Ap 4-A, as they are comparable to or stronger than the monsters that sustain the paintings. And the paintings besides being new worlds, are also multiple barriers of quantum space. And in one of the worlds in the paintings, there's a moon and stars.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I think I'll leave my final statements, I don't think I have anything else to add, so I'll leave my summary of my thoughts.

@Ss3micah gave a new proposed description, and I agree with the Text Manipulation part (coming from the magical books) and the Plot Manipulation part (coming from the Grimoire events).

But like @Theglassman12 , I'm not all creatures of chaos that distort reality by transforming.

Since there are users with doubts about whether or not the Grimoire thing can be Plot Manipulation, I propose that we call more people experienced in this matter to give their opinions.

 

[Ss3micah]

Busy with work lolol
When I get of my shift I’ll stop by to comment cause I got a lot of things to comment on lol

 

[Theglassman12]

@EldemadeDityjon The proof is already there, magically speaking the real world and the grimoire world are identical world is the same, the burden of proof is on you that it doesn't work when we literally have statements that suggest otherwise. If you can't prove that's not how it works then you're shit out of luck here.

Here's a food for thought, read the cosmology blog before you assume the 2-C ratings only apply to the grimoires because absolutely nothing in the cosmology blog remotely used the grimoire worlds as a basis for 2-C. Again actually do some research before you make yourself look like an idiot in front of everyone else.

@Phsccarvalho We already have several folks already agreeing with plot hax with the grimoires, the only ones that disagree is Elde and at this point he's not trying to refute any of the scans we post and is recycling the same argument that's been debunked over and over again.

@Ss3micah (Creatures of Chaos can utilize the power of chaos to write cruel endings for their targets into Reality[1] and rewrite[2] the narrative of the worlds[2] they reside in through the[3] chaos in their soul[2] which are one and the same as the real world[4]; with the results[5] of those changes[3] overturning events in the story it's tied to and overflowing into reality[2])

Does this look good enough for a redraft?

 

[Ss3micah]

@Ss3micah (Creatures of Chaos can utilize the power of chaos to write cruel endings for their targets into Reality[1] and rewrite[2] the narrative of the worlds[2] they reside in through the[3] chaos in their soul[2] which are one and the same as the real world[4]; with the results[5] of those changes[3] overturning events in the story it's tied to and overflowing into reality[2])

Perfect!!!

 

[Phsccarvalho]

(Creatures of Chaos can utilize the power of chaos to write cruel endings for their targets into Reality[1] and rewrite[2] the narrative of the worlds[2] they reside in through the[3] chaos in their soul[2] which are one and the same as the real world[4]; with the results[5] of those changes[3] overturning events in the story it's tied to and overflowing into reality[2])

I'm on the fence about this chaos power thing in general and so on. Could you look at these questions of mine and answer my doubts?

These are the ones below.

I understand the rationale for beings like Dracula to also be able to use these abilities, but where does the scale go? For example, we have Joachim, a vampire/chaos creature stronger than common enemies (since he's a boss), but he doesn't even come close to beings like Death. Would he and beings comparable to him have Text Manipulation?

So how deep into the art of chaos do you need to be to access this ability?

I think it would be easier if Grimorio's changes were Plot Manipulation and Text Manipulation. So all chaos creatures would have these capabilities, but even so, something bothers me. For the Grimorio to be altered, multiple chaos creatures have to wield the chaos power right (correct me if I'm wrong)? And during the game, the player has to kill creatures of chaos and go "cleaning" the chaotic energy.

So the power of chaos has the ability to Manipulate Plot and Text, but as far as I know, it took several creatures to change the Grimorio (I could be wrong, if so, please correct me). Beings like Dracula and creatures of chaos with power comparable or close to his, I understand having those powers. But what about chaos creatures like Joachim? What would be boss level, like medusa and etc? Would he have the ability to use Plot and Text Manipulation? The bosses in Portrait of Ruin could support Brauner's paintings, which were worlds, one of those bosses was Medusa, and here Joachim is comparable to Medusa. So does he have the necessary amount of chaotic power?

I know it's already accepted that he has Plot Manipulation, I'm just asking a question about it because of my reasoning.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Phsccarvalho Literally every single creature of chaos in grimoire of souls have the exact same vital souls which is the source of the grimoire's chaos, even normal random bosses are capable of doing this, plus the magic book which is a nobody is capable of doing this, there's no reason why Joachim wouldn't scale when it's made clear the creatures of chaos can do it with their own chaos.

It didn't take several creatures to start rewriting the grimoires, it was always just one grimoire. Gergoth was the only one in its own grimoire rewriting the grimoire, same with Balore, same with the Rondo of Blood Dragon, same with the giant mechanical horse boss in Order of Ecclesia, it's always been just one creature doing the chaos rewritting with their own chaos. So to answer your question absolutely yes, Joachim can do it, if any of them can destabilize the grimoires with their chaos and something as fodder as a magic book can replicate the same thing, there's no reason to assume he cannot do it.

@Ss3micah should I apply the changes or do you want to discuss anything else?

 

[Ss3micah]

@Ss3micah should I apply the changes or do you want to discuss anything else?

The only thing I wanted to discuss was the point of who the plot and text Hax would be applicable towards as phsccar had brought up that point but you’ve pretty much answered that so yup
Apply the changes and then I think we’re done here

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Literally every single creature of chaos in grimoire of souls have the exact same vital souls which is the source of the grimoire's chaos, even normal random bosses are capable of doing this, plus the magic book which is a nobody is capable of doing this, there's no reason why Joachim wouldn't scale when it's made clear the creatures of chaos can do it with their own chaos.

Yes, with the power of chaos the creatures of chaos can do these things.

The Grimorio thing seems to be one of the chaos power effects in general, as it didn't seem to be restrictive to a specific creature type (I think).

But even though the source of all creatures of chaos is the same, not all creatures have the same powers as the magic books. Skeletons, werewolves, zombies, armor and etc. despite being creatures of chaos, are not described as also being able to use the same abilities as the Magic Books just because the source of power for all of them is the same.

It didn't take several creatures to start rewriting the grimoires, it was always just one grimoire. Gergoth was the only one in its own grimoire rewriting the grimoire, same with Balore, same with the Rondo of Blood Dragon, same with the giant mechanical horse boss in Order of Ecclesia, it's always been just one creature doing the chaos rewritting with their own chaos. So to answer your question absolutely yes, Joachim can do it, if any of them can destabilize the grimoires with their chaos and something as fodder as a magic book can replicate the same thing, there's no reason to assume he cannot do it.

If the Boss levels that were changing the Grimoires, and Joachim is a Boss and here it is accepted that he is comparable to Medusa, then I understand he has the same ability.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Phsccarvalho you are comparing the weakest creatures of chaos to the higher ones, Zombies and skeletons are like the bottom of the barrel creature of chaos, same with the magic books since they're treated as randos in SOTN, HoD (I think) and MoF, also I'm not really saying that they all scale to every single ability any and all creature of chaos has ever used. I'm not cross scaling every creature of chaos to having the mandragora's madness inducing scream since it's clear that's an ability only the mandragoras have, where with the plot hax that's been shown repeatedly to apply to any creature of chaos because of the chaos inside of them.

@Ss3micah coolio, I'll apply the changes and close this thread.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

you are comparing the weakest creatures of chaos to the higher ones, Zombies and skeletons are like the bottom of the barrel creature of chaos, same with the magic books since they're treated as randos in SOTN, HoD (I think) and MoF, also I'm not really saying that they all scale to every single ability any and all creature of chaos has ever used. I'm not cross scaling every creature of chaos to having the mandragora's madness inducing scream since it's clear that's an ability only the mandragoras have, where with the plot hax that's been shown repeatedly to apply to any creature of chaos because of the chaos inside of them.

I understood.

 

[Ss3micah]

@Ss3micah coolio, I'll apply the changes and close this thread.

You have my blessings

 

[Theglassman12]

Welp, I edited every single page for the series, so I'll be closing this thread.