Castlevania Plot Manipulation Adjustments and Revisions

[Theglassman12]

@EldemadeDityjon show me, nothing in the clip shows monsters coming out of the book, the book is literally trying to affect Simon Belmont.

@XXKINGXX69 We literally see Fate manipulation done differently in the series so your argument that it's fate hax is flat out wrong.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

@EldemadeDityjon show me, nothing in the clip shows monsters coming out of the book, the book is literally trying to affect Simon Belmont.

@XXKINGXX69 We literally see Fate manipulation done differently in the series so your argument that it's fate hax is flat out wrong.

This is like saying we see another instance of plot manipulation that does something different so the magic book isn't plot manipulation

 

[Theglassman12]

That's not even what I argued, you're grasping at straws at this point.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

That's not even what I argued, you're grasping at straws at this point.

I didn't say you argued that, it was just an analogy

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

@EldemadeDityjon show me, nothing in the clip shows monsters coming out of the book, the book is literally trying to affect Simon Belmont.

Reply the video little bit back and you can see Book spamming Monsters and trying to kill that guy and book connecting some line doesn't make plot manipulation.

 

[ImmortalDread]

You clearly ignoring the part where book was only spamming monsters into real world and not doing anything else. Why don't you answer by questions. If it can really manipulation plot why didn't it kill the character just writing a word die instead of spamming monsters. The feat can be done via text manipulation also you don't need to it with plot manipulation.

Can you atleast tell me why didn't it write a die?

Do you agree when I say that you can even get fire manipulation through plot and still be considered as "fire + plot hax"?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Has very little to do with plot manip

@EldemadeDityjon if you liked his post, then u def agreeing with him?????????? Rly now?

 

[Theglassman12]

@XXKINGXX69 Your analogy is wrong when you just said it could be Fate hax with no evidence

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Do you agree when I say that you can even get fire manipulation through plot and still be considered as "fire + plot hax"?

Yes but book no.

@EldemadeDityjon if you liked his post, then u def agreeing with him?????????? Rly now?

He isn't Completely right but not completely Wrong. Book doens't automatically grant you plot manipulation. I agree with his claims ( half)

 

[Theglassman12]

@EldemadeDityjon You're literally lying to me right now, the book in Mirror of Fate never summoned monsters, the book literally attacks the player with the plot hax, monsters appear on their own.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

@XXKINGXX69 Your analogy is wrong when you just said it could be Fate hax with no evidence

This is a circular argument, I could easily say there's no evidence of plot manipulation

@EldemadeDityjon You're literally lying to me right now, the book in Mirror of Fate never summoned monsters, the book literally attacks the player with the plot hax, monsters appear on their own.

What is the plot hax doing?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

@EldemadeDityjon You're literally lying to me right now, the book in Mirror of Fate never summoned monsters, the book literally attacks the player with the plot hax, monsters appear on their own.

Who is lying?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Yes but book no.

If you wanted to say that book is by default not, then sure. I won't even disagree with this.

He isn't Completely right but not completely Wrong. Book doens't automatically grant you plot manipulation. I agree with his claims ( half)

Thanks God that u did not agree fully because I may lose my humanity if you seriously agreed with him.

 

[Theglassman12]

@XXKINGXX69 You literally started it by saying it's fate hax with no evidence.

Literally writing cruel fates with the power of the author.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Thanks God that u did not agree fully because I may lose my humanity if you seriously agreed with him.

This is not plot manipulation. Dude this is clear cut text manipulation..

 

[Theglassman12]

@EldemadeDityjon did you watch any further and answer the question on where those werewolves came from btw? Or what the book is doing to Simon Belmont with the green beam with Simon? Or are you going to twist the narrative?

 

[XXKINGXX69]

@XXKINGXX69 You literally started it by saying it's fate hax with no evidence.

Literally writing cruel fates with the power of the author.

"Power of the author" refers to the people who write the magic book, that's not plot manipulation

 

[Theglassman12]

That's not an argument, actually explain or don't bother because not elaborating how it's not plot hax isn't going to convince anyone.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

@EldemadeDityjon did you watch any further and answer the question on where those werewolves came from btw? Or are you going to twist the narrative?

You claimed Book Never spammed it and i was lying which is completely lie you made up. And I watched it. He clearly says no more books after defeating the monsters and book were only shown to connecting something to him which we never know what it was doing anyway it was not Manipulating anything in your video link accept spammed warewolf and connected some like to Simon or whatever that guy name is.

"Power of the author" refers to the people who write the magic book, that's not plot manipulation

Yes @ImmortalDread this is what I am talking about I don't know if you get it but this is not plot manipulation.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Do you just not have a response to my argument? Why do I need to prove that writing a book which then changes fate is not plot manipulation because it has 0 correlation to being plot manipulation? What does it have to do with manipulating the narrative?

 

[ImmortalDread]

How is he going to even convince anyone? Dude literally flat out said that plot hax has little with metafictional???

 

[XXKINGXX69]

How is he going to even convince anyone? Dude literally flat out said that plot hax has little with metafictional???

Explain what "metafictional" is and why this has anything to do at all with the magic book scan

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

That's not an argument, actually explain or don't bother because not elaborating how it's not plot hax isn't going to convince anyone.

I already did that's text Manipulation not Plot Manipulation

How is he going to even convince anyone? Dude literally flat out said that plot hax has little with metafictional???

This is what book doing which is only text manipulation

• Create/modify the reality in the writing of books - translated into the reality of all the events recorded in the book (while accompanied by the creation of the new world),

But if you have plot manipulation you can do this text+plot manipulation

• or the manipulation of the characters and events of the real world, comparable with that as a regular writer can manipulate the characters of his novel.

It's not Manipulating anything in real world.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Explain what "metafictional" is and why this has anything to do at all with the magic book

I created this sandbox specifically to explain what is metaficional means.

This does not discredit the fact that you flat out said, it has nothing to do with plot manipulation, as plot hax is heavily dependent on it.

Now going back to "magic book". I agree that the character should get text hax as it is definitely writing something but you also don't need to ignore the first possible use that him manipulating fate through text/plot hax is a still qualification.

You asked where is "through plot". Again, if fate hax is described metafictionally, this qualities.

 

[Theglassman12]

@EldemadeDityjon The fact you literally shrugged off the connection thing with Simon when the bestiary literally said with the power of the author the book writes cruel endings to the target shows how dishonest you are in this entire thread.

modify reality in the writing of books

Simon is not in the writing of books, how about you do some research on the series before you make assumptions because you're making a fool out of yourself.

@XXKINGXX69 Do you not have an actual refute to the plot hax? Because nothing you've said in this entire thread disproves anything, either provide the evidence or leave because this thread is about rewording the plot hax explanation.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

@EldemadeDityjon The fact you literally shrugged off the connection thing with Simon when the bestiary literally said with the power of the author the book writes cruel endings to the target shows how dishonest you are in this entire thread.

Stop with this attitude. I can go on about your dishonesty regarding many matters But I am here neutral and asking proof is dishonesty then I don't know how anyone debates anywhere. Is this your first debate or something? Looks like you gets offended someone asks for proof. Why you always try to brush off your Burden of proof by trying to insult others.

Simon is not in the writing of books, how about you do some research on the series before you make assumptions because you're making a fool out of yourself.

Yeah he is in real world so no plot manipulation thanks for Conceding book can't do anything in real world

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Create/modify the reality in the writing of books -

This leads to reality warping page not text manipulation so doesn't matter it's text manipulation+ reality warping

 

[Theglassman12]

@EldemadeDityjon And you refuse to elaborate on my "dishonesty". I wonder why, it's almost like your examples either aren't dishonest or flat out twisting the narrative.

Good job contradicting yourself by ignoring the beam connection you mentioned with Simon that was affecting him, just shows how much you love to lie to push for a downgrade.

literally irrelevant to this thread or my arguments.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

@EldemadeDityjon And you refuse to elaborate on my "dishonesty". I wonder why, it's almost like your examples either aren't dishonest or flat out twisting the narrative.

You only trying to brush off your burden. You are just committing fallacies. Send scans & back up.

Good job contradicting yourself by ignoring the beam connection you mentioned with Simon that was affecting him, just shows how much you love to lie to push for a downgrade.

Text Manipulation+ Reality Warping. My argument won't change. Connecting line doesn't mean a thing without further explanation.

literally irrelevant to this thread or my arguments.

It does because you quoted those

Show me proof for where those so called Author manipulated things in real world instead of magic books

This is Text Manipulation + Reality Warping
Your scans and video perfectly matches this.

• Create/modify the reality in the writing of books - translated into the reality of all the events recorded in the book (while accompanied by the creation of the new world),

This is Text Manipulation+ Plot Manipulation which your scans has zero proof

• or the manipulation of the characters and events of the real world, comparable with that as a regular writer can manipulate the characters of his novel.

 

[Ss3micah]

I’ll give my overall opinion regarding the Magic Book ONLY not the Grimoire JUST the MAGIC BOOK

Regarding the Magic Book, I can see the argument from both sides and in my mind it’s split 50/50 between plot and text

The Magic Books ability:
Is the power to write bad ending for the target into reality which in all honesty text manipulation can literally do the same thing

Effects of Text Manipulation from the Text Manipulation Page:

• The materialization of the event - the ability to translate into reality the events recorded in text form.
• Create/modify the reality in the writing of books - translated into the reality of all the events recorded in the book (while accompanied by the creation of the new world), or the manipulation of the characters and events of the real world, comparable with that as a regular writer can manipulate the characters of his novel.

In another thought of honesty
Plot Hax is stable given the “Power of their Authors” tidbit
The Magic Books were created by someone (that being their authors cause every book has an author lol) and it uses the power of their authors to script bad endings for the targets into reality

You could equally argue it’s Text Hax as well because scripting events into reality through conventions of text is text Hax and I would imagine how the magic books writes these bad endings for their targets is by writing texts is on its own pages and then what text is written on its pages then happens to the target in reality

Either way
Both are equally valid in my opinion

Plot Hax because of context of the Authors
Text Hax because of overall method of execution of the ability

 

[Theglassman12]

@EldemadeDityjon Hah, I knew it you are just pulling stuff out of nowhere to make me look bad, good job proving you're lying.

Why would it be text manipulation when we literally saw it mention the author's power? You don't elaborate why it's only text manipulation and reality warping.

Simon IS in the real world, the book is affecting him in the real world, you're literally in denial at this point since you cannot prove Simon isn't in the real world.

@Ss3micah Honestly it's both plot hax and text manipulation given the text alteration in Grimoire of Souls and the fact the author's power is shown to affect people in the real world by writing cruel endings for them.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

@EldemadeDityjon Hah, I knew it you are just pulling stuff out of nowhere to make me look bad, good job proving you're lying.

You literary just trying to insulting me being dishonest meanwhile you are not even proving anything.

Why would it be text manipulation when we literally saw it mention the author's power? You don't elaborate why it's only text manipulation and reality warping.

I can wrote a book and become a author of that story doens't mean my story affect real world and I even copy pasted the exact thing from the wiki page. You are at this point nitpicking and ignoring.

Simon IS in the real world, the book is affecting him in the real world, you're literally in denial at this point since you cannot prove Simon isn't in the real world.

Writing something in the book and affecting the reality like reality warping. Simon didn't got affected like how author affects the character in thier Novel. Also that line which was connecting has zero explanation.

This is in the book

• Create/modify the reality in the writing of books - translated into the reality of all the events recorded in the book (while accompanied by the creation of the new world),

This is in the real world

• or the manipulation of the characters and events of the real world, comparable with that as a regular writer can manipulate the characters of his novel.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I’ll give my overall opinion regarding the Magic Book ONLY not the Grimoire JUST the MAGIC BOOK

Regarding the Magic Book, I can see the argument from both sides and in my mind it’s split 50/50 between plot and text

The Magic Books ability:
Is the power to write bad ending for the target into reality which in all honesty text manipulation can literally do the same thing

Effects of Text Manipulation from the Text Manipulation Page:

• The materialization of the event - the ability to translate into reality the events recorded in text form.
• Create/modify the reality in the writing of books - translated into the reality of all the events recorded in the book (while accompanied by the creation of the new world), or the manipulation of the characters and events of the real world, comparable with that as a regular writer can manipulate the characters of his novel.

In another thought of honesty
Plot Hax is stable given the “Power of their Authors” tidbit
The Magic Books were created by someone (that being their authors cause every book has an author lol) and it uses the power of their authors to script bad endings for the targets into reality

You could equally argue it’s Text Hax as well because scripting events into reality through conventions of text is text Hax and I would imagine how the magic books writes these bad endings for their targets is by writing texts is on its own pages and then what text is written on its pages then happens to the target in reality

Either way
Both are equally valid in my opinion

Plot Hax because of context of the Authors
Text Hax because of overall method of execution of the ability

Atleast Thanks for understanding but My argument is clear cut the same but Author of the book ≠ Author of real world.

Books are not affected real world in any way that acts like how author writes a Novel. I agree with Text Manipulation+Reality warping for that.

 

[Theglassman12]

@EldemadeDityjon Good to know you’re a liar and a false accuser in the end of this entire discussion of plot hax when it comes to framing anyone who disagrees with you.

Says the guy nitpicking and ignoring the bestiary for the magic book where they affect the real world.

No explanation huh? What do you call the bestiary for the magic book that explains giving cruel endings to any victims in the real world huh? Because at this point you’re flat out lying.

No it’s not, Simon is not in the book, the book is affecting things not in the book

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I'm not that knowledgeable about Text Manipulation and Plot Manipulation, so I can't give an opinion with 100% certainty, so I'm just going to say what I think about this Magic Books thing, to see if it adds something to the discussion.

About the "Author's Power" thing, isn't this just referring to Magic Books inheriting the powers of their authors, who are wizards?

The description of the Magic Books is as follows

"The search for immortality has caused many wizards to use their dying breath to commit their souls within heavy tomes of parchment. These pages permeate with the dark powers of their authors and so are able to write cruel endings for those valiant enough to confront them. "

So I'm going to say the sentences and say what I understand when I read them.

"wizards to use their dying breath to commit their souls within heavy tomes of parchment" - This is referring to the Wizards, the authors of the books, giving their souls to the scrolls.

"These pages permeate with the dark powers of their authors" - Here it is saying that the pages inherited the dark powers of their authors. Not the power of being an "author", but rather just the power of the authors of books, who were wizards. So they had magical powers

"and so are able to write cruel endings for those valiant enough to confront them." - The last sequel can mean two things to me:

1 - It's just a play on words, since the Books have magical powers and with them, they can make horrible "endings" for those who face them. Just making a reference to them being books.

2 - They really have these "rewrite" powers. But how exactly do they do it? In gameplay they don't do anything much, they just glow one color and do something, like summon werewolves or drain the character's life. But if we go back to the description of the Magic Books, it is said that in their pages there are the dark powers, so I think it's likely that the powers of rewrite are linked to the pages, and in that sense, I agree with @EldemadeDityjon in being text manipulation. I think it's more likely that the Magic Books are altering their own pages or something.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Only, does it really matter? There's the whole Grimoire issue, something I think is most relevant and that affects all those with Chaos powers.

The Grimoire is said to be a world(27:18 - 27:24) and Charlotte says that magically speaking, the real world and the world of the grimoire are the same thing, and then uses examples like the weapons she takes from her books and from the worlds in Brauner's paintings, until even Jonathan talks like it was real.(12:34 - 13:00)

And the whole story of this game is talking about how the monsters inside the book are using the powers of Chaos to alter the Grimorio. They are altering their own world, a world that magically speaking is just like the real world. Wouldn't that be Plot Manipulation?

 

[XXKINGXX69]

@EldemadeDityjon The fact you literally shrugged off the connection thing with Simon when the bestiary literally said with the power of the author the book writes cruel endings to the target shows how dishonest you are in this entire thread.


Simon is not in the writing of books, how about you do some research on the series before you make assumptions because you're making a fool out of yourself.

@XXKINGXX69 Do you not have an actual refute to the plot hax? Because nothing you've said in this entire thread disproves anything, either provide the evidence or leave because this thread is about rewording the plot hax explanation.

I just gave you the refute, you're simply ignoring it. You didn't say anything except for "give evidence"

I created this sandbox specifically to explain what is metaficional means.

This does not discredit the fact that you flat out said, it has nothing to do with plot manipulation, as plot hax is heavily dependent on it.

Now going back to "magic book". I agree that the character should get text hax as it is definitely writing something but you also don't need to ignore the first possible use that him manipulating fate through text/plot hax is a still qualification.

You asked where is "through plot". Again, if fate hax is described metafictionally, this qualities.

Now explain what taking a book and writing something in it which then affects fate has to do with a metafictional term

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I'm not that knowledgeable about Text Manipulation and Plot Manipulation, so I can't give an opinion with 100% certainty, so I'm just going to say what I think about this Magic Books thing, to see if it adds something to the discussion.

About the "Author's Power" thing, isn't this just referring to Magic Books inheriting the powers of their authors, who are wizards?

The description of the Magic Books is as follows

"The search for immortality has caused many wizards to use their dying breath to commit their souls within heavy tomes of parchment. These pages permeate with the dark powers of their authors and so are able to write cruel endings for those valiant enough to confront them. "

So I'm going to say the sentences and say what I understand when I read them.

"wizards to use their dying breath to commit their souls within heavy tomes of parchment" - This is referring to the Wizards, the authors of the books, giving their souls to the scrolls.

"These pages permeate with the dark powers of their authors" - Here it is saying that the pages inherited the dark powers of their authors. Not the power of being an "author", but rather just the power of the authors of books, who were wizards. So they had magical powers

"and so are able to write cruel endings for those valiant enough to confront them." - The last sequel can mean two things to me:

1 - It's just a play on words, since the Books have magical powers and with them, they can make horrible "endings" for those who face them. Just making a reference to them being books.

2 - They really have these "rewrite" powers. But how exactly do they do it? In gameplay they don't do anything much, they just glow one color and do something, like summon werewolves or drain the character's life. But if we go back to the description of the Magic Books, it is said that in their pages there are the dark powers, so I think it's likely that the powers of rewrite are linked to the pages, and in that sense, I agree with @EldemadeDityjon in being text manipulation. I think it's more likely that the Magic Books are altering their own pages or something.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Only, does it really matter? There's the whole Grimoire issue, something I think is most relevant and that affects all those with Chaos powers.

The Grimoire is said to be a world(27:18 - 27:24) and Charlotte says that magically speaking, the real world and the world of the grimoire are the same thing, and then uses examples like the weapons she takes from her books and from the worlds in Brauner's paintings, until even Jonathan talks like it was real.(12:34 - 13:00)

And the whole story of this game is talking about how the monsters inside the book are using the powers of Chaos to alter the Grimorio. They are altering their own world, a world that magically speaking is just like the real world. Wouldn't that be Plot Manipulation?

I will check this out clearly reply later. Anyway thanks for understanding what I was talking about. Kinda busy

 

[Ss3micah]

I'm not that knowledgeable about Text Manipulation and Plot Manipulation, so I can't give an opinion with 100% certainty, so I'm just going to say what I think about this Magic Books thing, to see if it adds something to the discussion.

About the "Author's Power" thing, isn't this just referring to Magic Books inheriting the powers of their authors, who are wizards?

The description of the Magic Books is as follows

"The search for immortality has caused many wizards to use their dying breath to commit their souls within heavy tomes of parchment. These pages permeate with the dark powers of their authors and so are able to write cruel endings for those valiant enough to confront them. "

So I'm going to say the sentences and say what I understand when I read them.

"wizards to use their dying breath to commit their souls within heavy tomes of parchment" - This is referring to the Wizards, the authors of the books, giving their souls to the scrolls.

"These pages permeate with the dark powers of their authors" - Here it is saying that the pages inherited the dark powers of their authors. Not the power of being an "author", but rather just the power of the authors of books, who were wizards. So they had magical powers

"and so are able to write cruel endings for those valiant enough to confront them." - The last sequel can mean two things to me:

1 - It's just a play on words, since the Books have magical powers and with them, they can make horrible "endings" for those who face them. Just making a reference to them being books.

2 - They really have these "rewrite" powers. But how exactly do they do it? In gameplay they don't do anything much, they just glow one color and do something, like summon werewolves or drain the character's life. But if we go back to the description of the Magic Books, it is said that in their pages there are the dark powers, so I think it's likely that the powers of rewrite are linked to the pages, and in that sense, I agree with @EldemadeDityjon in being text manipulation. I think it's more likely that the Magic Books are altering their own pages or something.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Only, does it really matter? There's the whole Grimoire issue, something I think is most relevant and that affects all those with Chaos powers.

The Grimoire is said to be a world(27:18 - 27:24) and Charlotte says that magically speaking, the real world and the world of the grimoire are the same thing, and then uses examples like the weapons she takes from her books and from the worlds in Brauner's paintings, until even Jonathan talks like it was real.(12:34 - 13:00)

And the whole story of this game is talking about how the monsters inside the book are using the powers of Chaos to alter the Grimorio. They are altering their own world, a world that magically speaking is just like the real world. Wouldn't that be Plot Manipulation?

Given the additional context behind the Magic Book and the Grimoire

Im more so convinced that Magic Book's ability is more so Text Manipulation rather than Plot Manipulation
The Grimoire however I am more convinced is Plot Manipulation

 

[Theglassman12]

@Phsccarvalho the Magic books aren't just altering the pages though, they're having an actual effect on the real world when you see those magic channeling beams tied to Simon Belmont's being where they're trying to affect him with their magic in the game, which is elaborated in the bestiary to using the author's power to create cruel endings.

The Grimoires in GoS there's little to no reason why this wouldn't be plot hax given the grimoire worlds are identical to the real world so yeah.

@XXKINGXX69 That is not in anyway shape or form a refute when you literally have no scans to prove it's manipulating fate and the game itself shoots your fate argument in the foot thanks to the Mirror of Fate being where fate itself is being used.

@Ss3micah So how do you want the redraft to look? Do you want the magic book to be included in the reasoning with the extra grimoire stuff or what?

 

[Ss3micah]

@Ss3micah So how do you want the redraft to look? Do you want the magic book to be included in the reasoning with the extra grimoire stuff or what?

My proposition is this:
Plot Manipulation and Reality Warping (The powers of Chaos can rewrite the entire narrative it's in to ensure it being the winner, and overflow into reality, can alsowarp the fabric of reality when he transforms)

Would be changed to this

Text Manipulation and Plot Manipulation:

(Creatures of Chaos can utilize the power of chaos to write cruel endings for their targets into Reality and rewrite the narrative of the world itself; with the results of those changes overturning events in history and overwriting reality)

Reality Warping
(Whenever creatures of Chaos transform they warp the fabric of reality around them)