Caster Gil vs Archer

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Hey, who fixed the title and for what reasons?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

EMIYA FRA

 

[Tyranno223]

Caster Gil wasn't caught off guard, he was simply sacrificing himself (shocking eh) for Ritsuka, if anything his clairvoyance probably saved Chaldea's last master.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

It was better without a title.

 

[Jimboydejuan12]

what ups Voted Count?

 

[BakiHanma18]

Emiya FRA, he's got an advantage in or a way of counter a lot of Gil's arsenal

 

[PsychoWarper]

Can Emiya counter his Magic? Also Caster Gil can summon upto 7 servants himself and still be able to fight.

Plus with SNI and the fact he can pull Ea makes it seem like Emiya will have a harder time with Caster.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Wasn't it stated that Emiya would lose a fight against any servant worth their salt because his stats are crap

I know that's not a 100% win in Gil's favor, I'm just saying that the last time Archer fought GIlgamesh it didn't go so well, and this is Gilgamesh with even more hax

 

[Schnee_One]

In close quarters, since his stats are crap and he's an Archer

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

so was gilgamesh

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

In all seriousness I don't see him beating caster Gil here. Archer's magic resistance is crap and he's fighting a caster who can attack from all directions, including just directly casting stuff on the opponent and making rho aias moot

 

[Schnee_One]

so was gilgamesh

I mean the dude has High 6C dura

 

[PsychoWarper]

While this Gil does focus more on his Magic (Which is AoG magic) and he gave away a large amount of the GoB he still has a good amount of weapons in the GoB plus he still has Enkidu and Ea as well as Melammu Dingir so Gil can really spam from all sides with various different attacks including powerful Magic.

All that combined with SNI and being humbled makes him quite hard to beat even despite Emiya basically existing to counter him.

 

[Managements]

IIRC Ea and Enkidu are actually one of the treasures sealed when Gilgamesh became caster. Even if he did have Enkidu though it wouldn't work because EMIYA has no divinity, and its unlikely he has Ea considering its noted a large portion of his treasury is sealed and we've never seen it pulled it out even in situations were it would come in handy.

EMIYA's cqc abilities are also superior to Gilgamesh's (in the vn, its mentioned EMIYA managed to take out 6 of Berserker's lives with various melee techniques and Herc even praising his skill, so he definitely isn't the type to just lose to any servant worth their salt, in contrast to Gilgamesh having to keep his distance and pelt Berserker with GoB and getting disarmed by Shirou). The only cqc feats I can recall for caster Gil is dodging two relatively low level servants, which while impressive won't help much against undodgeable techniques like triple-linked crane wings even if he does decide to use SNI, since seeing the attack coming doesn't necessarily mean he can dodge it.

While Archer's base magic resist is low, we know he is capable of projecting things like K&B which increase MR and rule breaker which can cancel any magecraft (since he's seen it in the UBW and HF routes and projected it in Tesla's interlude he should probably have it in this fight). He definitely has a few other tricks to deal with magecraft as well since he even managed to somehow cancel Medea's space freeze spell in UBW route fight, which should be applicable to this fight as well since both Casters use AoG magic.

Also, while we know EMIYA has several defensive nps like Rho Aias to defend himself against Gil's attacks, we're not entirely sure if Gil as a caster has any himself, since in materials its stated he only pulls out various magic wands and mystic codes from his GoB in fights and he's neither wearing any armor nor does he ever pull out a shield even when it would've benefitted him (like against Tiamat's sniping). This brings into question whether Gil would be able to stop EMIYA sniping him with something like hrunting.

In addition, if EMIYA gets UBW up, the fight is pretty much over. Since Gil needs his staves unlike normal casters to use any of his magic, EMIYA should be able cancel all of Gil's spellcasting by destroying the staves he brings out of GoB with UBW's swords before Gil can charge them up and use them, similarly to how Shirou canceled GoB in f/sn, allowing him to close in on Gil. Melammu Dingir would also be unusable, since firing a broken phantasm artillery barrage on a person one foot away from you is a bad idea. At which point EMIYA can use crane wings, which Gil shouldn't be able to avoid even with SNI.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Lol at Medea's being comparable to Gil's

and even without divinity, Enkidu is hella strong. Just look at what it did to Iskandar and (IIRC) Artoria.

What stops gilgamesh from just pulling a 1:29? Nothing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFwccj5TWio

The idea that Emiya can get UBW up is ridiculous. It's a massive chant and Sha Naqba Imuru says no

 

[Excaliburhuman]

and even without divinity, Enkidu is hella strong. Just look at what it did to Iskandar and (IIRC) Artoria.

But Iskander has divinity...

I'll vote for Gil. SNI should allow him to counter most of Emiya's stuff and if there is something he can't counter he would most likely run or finish the battle before it got to that point.

 

[Managements]

Lol at Medea's being comparable to Gil's

Gil has never shown any magecraft beyond what Medea does in her territory in F/SN and F/HA in the entire Babylonia anime. Medea might even be superior to him, since she managed to summon her own servant which even Gilgamesh mentioned he probably wouldn't be able to do outside of the AoG. She is in lore one of the strongest casters.

and even without divinity, Enkidu is hella strong. Just look at what it did to Iskandar and (IIRC) Artoria.

It was never used against Artoria, and Iskander has divinity. Otherwise it's only as strong as a regular chain, and that's IF he even has it which is debatable.

What stops gilgamesh from just pulling a 1:29?

Rule Breaker or whatever it was he used to break out of Medea's space freeze (at least read my post completely before replying dude)

The idea that Emiya can get UBW up is ridiculous. It's a massive chant and Sha Naqba Imuru says no

EMIYA can chant UBW while defending against Gil, all he needs to do is survive 20-30 seconds against Gil and with the abilities he has at his disposal its not unlikely.

What will Gil do against Hrunting?

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

"What can Gil do against Hrunting"


literally anything given its charge time and the fact that Gilgamesh matches or exceeds Archer in every stat but endurance

 

[Managements]

Who said EMIYA had to charge it into a broken phantasm? Even when EMIYA fires the nps immediately they are still powerful on their own, as seen when the caladbolg he fired with its true name obliterated both Medea and her God-hand tier barrier without even hitting her in the UBW route fight. Hrunting as a np close to Caladbolg's rank should be comparable when he uses its true name. I'm not sure what you're point was with Gilgamesh matching or exceeding Archer in stats when most of the servants Archer fights generally do and he does fine regardless. The only thing he has over EMIYA is one extra rank in strength and better luck (which wouldn't apply in this battle since EMIYA doesn't use any luck dependent attacks) and EMIYA has dealt with FAR larger differences in parameters in the past.

Casters are lore-wise probably the worst class for straight up one on one fighting. A few especially strong ones like caster Gil can go as far as to fight knight-class servants and thats mainly because SNI gives him a fighting chance, but even then its not all-powerful (he states Kingu would've utterly destroyed both him and Mash if its battle with them continued even while it was holding back because of Enkidu's memories).

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

Didn't one of Illya's maids brush off Enkidu due to having negligible divinity?

 

[Managements]

IIRC Gil only fought Illya's maids in the UBW anime, where he just GoB'd them to death without Enkidu.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

It happened in Carnival Phantasm.

 

[Excaliburhuman]

I mean if we take Carnival Phantasm as cannon then Herc with cu one shots anyone in 5th holy grail war.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

Are there any contradictions?

 

[AnonymousBlank]

A gag series isn't the best place to get feats/references for the rest of the non gag franchise.

 

[Schnee_One]

Remember when we tried to scale of Salter Santa's feat

 

[Overlord775]

Even if Archer menages to kill Gil, couldn't he simply re-summon himself as his Archer self ?

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

Remember when we tried to scale of Salter Santa's feat

What feat?

 

[PsychoWarper]

IIRC Ea and Enkidu are actually one of the treasures sealed when Gilgamesh became caster. Even if he did have Enkidu though it wouldn't work because EMIYA has no divinity, and its unlikely he has Ea considering its noted a large portion of his treasury is sealed and we've never seen it pulled it out even in situations were it would come in handy.

Gils treasures are not sealed, he gave them away to his people to use. Enkidu may be arguable but no one else can use Ea besides Gil so him giving it away would make no sense.

Also while he lost a large amount of the GoB he still has many weapons at his disposal and from what ive read can use them its just he chooses to use his magic more as a Caster but will pull his other weapons should he need to.

Also using the feats from Babylonia is a big iffy seeing as how that was Living Gil and basically everyone from Babylonia is 2-A.

Also against the non-Divine Enkidu is not a "Normal" Chain its stated to be an exceptionally strong chain and can still be used to attack.

 

[Managements]

Even if Archer menages to kill Gil, couldn't he simply re-summon himself as his Archer self?

That's something Gil says he can only do while in the underworld, since the battle doesn't take place there we can assume he can't replicate that feat.

Gils treasures are not sealed, he gave them away to his people to use. Enkidu may be arguable but no one else can use Ea besides Gil so him giving it away would make no sense.

I'm not so sure about that, screenshot implies Gil sealed away most of his treasures when he became Caster. Ea and Enkidu could very well be one of those nps and it would explain why he never uses them ever in Babylonia.


Not really, the quote from the materials is that "for Saber, Assassin, and Archer, who had no Divinity, it was merely a strong chain." The "merely" implies its certainly not strong enough to be a viable weapon against servant level beings without divinity.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Bruh is that in pic from? the Babylonia Singularity? Cause if so that is Living Gilgamesh, not Servant Gil meaning they are not the same, also if he did seal it away wouldnt that mean he could simply unseal it.

Also for Enkidu doesnt it literally say like not much after that Enkidu can but used as a weapon due to the bladed ends.

 

[Managements]

Bruh is that in pic from? the Babylonia Singularity? Cause if so that is Living Gilgamesh, not Servant Gil meaning they are not the same, also if he did seal it away wouldnt that mean he could simply unseal it.

From the way Gil was talking beforehand it seems sealing away the majority of his treasures is some sort of prerequisite to becoming caster, which was the trade-off he needed in order to summon Merlin and the other heroic spirits. Consequently, his servant form, who is also caster, should be subject to the same restrictions. We do not know if Caster Gil can unseal his treasury through any method but ditching the Caster class summoning himself in Archer form, which he can't do except in the underworld.

Also for Enkidu doesnt it literally say like not much after that Enkidu can but used as a weapon due to the bladed ends.

It doesn't, it simply isn't effective against non divine servants.

Also, on the topic of SNI, while reviewing the events of Babylonia I found that one of the golems he was fighting before they encountered Enkidu managed to surprise and injure Gil, which seems to suggest SNI might have more combat limitations than originally thought and probably isn't perfect vision of the future when it comes to combat. Something similar also happens is Caster Gil's interlude, where he seems to be caught off guard multiple times, although how much of it is just him acting for the purposes of the drill is unknown (he does admit several unexpected things happened during it after the drill was over).

 

[PsychoWarper]

If he unsealed the GoB wouldnt he just revert to Archer? Or at least revert to his Archer powers losing his Caster ones?

Also for the "Couldnt summon his Archer Self unless in the Underworld" part wasnt that because Gilgamesh was still alive and not technically in the Throne of Heroes? Same issue with Merlin but unlike Merlin he had been born and was still alive at that time, so when he went into the Underworld he died?

Meaning as his Servant self he wouldnt have those issues since he had died and was within the Throne.

 

[Managements]

Also for the "Couldnt summon his Archer Self unless in the Underworld" part wasnt that because Gilgamesh was still alive and not technically in the Throne of Heroes? Same issue with Merlin but unlike Merlin he had been born and was still alive at that time, so when he went into the Underworld he died?

He doesn't elaborate that much on it, but it seems his soul actually went to the underworld when he died, not the throne, much like when he died from overworking, and from there he used that opportunity to summon a servant body of himself in his prime. The throne of heroes is outside of time anyway, so he should still be able to summon himself from the throne even without being dead yet.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Hmm alright then, tho the whole "Throne of Heroes" being outside time thing kinda makes the whole Merlin situation seem weird but eh ill drop the "Summon Archer thing I guess".

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

If he unsealed the GoB wouldn't he just revert to Archer? Or at least revert to his Archer powers losing his Caster ones?

No.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Alrighty although something curious is CasGil's Item Construction,

"Since he is not a magus, Gilgamesh originally would not possess the Item Construction Skill, but he has an ability equivalent to it due to the existence of the Gate of Babylon. All tools that can be created (that can be retrieved from the Noble Phantasm) are "items inside the Babylonian treasure vault"."

So he can seemingly still use the GoB although I guess it may be limited in its offensive use.

 

[PsychoWarper]

No.

Alright, then I guess we go with he simply cant unseal (At least in Servant form)?