Can NEP be affected by fate?

[Firephoenixearl]

The title. Can NEP be affected by fate manipulation?

Type 1

Type 2

 

[Ogbunabali]

Well type 2 is just no. Since they don't exist on any level.

Type 1 is kinda weird, since it's mostly just "meta/physical nonexistence" so it's not like they exist beyond higher concepts or causality or whatever. So I'd argue that fate manipulation would "work", but just not in the conventional sense. Like you could use fate manipulation to get a nonexistant to be hit by a car but the NEP character would be unharmed because they can't get hit by a car. So while the "events" happen, it's outside factors that would determine whether they get affected or not.

Like first of all you would need feats of even perceiving a NEP character in the first place in order for you to use fate manip. Then it depends on how your fate manip works. You still need feats of NEP interaction if you want to physically harm them, etc.

So this one is very nuanced and would need to be determined on a case by case basis on the thread itself, I'd say.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I agree on both.

 

[Antoniofer]

Considering that both things aren't real, don't think we can determinate who can affect the other without analyzing how both powers work in that case.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I mean "how both powers work"....most fate hax and NEP work the same tbh. Fate hax controls fate, NEP lacks body and soul. So does a being who lacks body and soul lack a fate?

 

[Antoniofer]

No, its unrelated, but the cosmology of a verse may have a relationship between soul/life and fate (similar to LoK, where Raziel dies, fulfilling its life in the wheel of fate, but he revives as a wraith, obtaining free will).

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I mean that is more a weakness of the fate hax in verse. I mean in a general sense.

 

[Antoniofer]

Welp, it's a verse where fate is supposed to be immutable, I'd say it's relative. Fate is not a thing irl, so it can have the "weaknesses" and limitations the verse want it to be, then it's resolved by verse equalization.

 

[Everything12]

This makes me think of another question, can Fate Hax works on Abstract Existence Type 1? If not I don't see why they would work Non-Existent Physiology Type 1. As the only difference is that it has a Non-Existent outer shell around its Concept, and I personally don't think Fate would affect such a thing.

 

[Eganergo]

Let's not talk about the "hax", but on the fate itself. Hax depend on the character using it. If NEP is inherently not affected by fate, they should automatically receive Acausality.

 

[Antoniofer]

Yeah, we have a power to cover defy fate (although, the type that cover [2] that is still extremely specific).

 

[Firephoenixearl]

This makes me think of another question, can Fate Hax works on Abstract Existence Type 1? If not I don't see why they would work Non-Existent Physiology Type 1. As the only difference is that it has a Non-Existent outer shell around its Concept, and I personally don't think Fate would affect such a thing.

The thing is, abstract is quite a bit weirder, so i'd rather leave that for another time.

As for NEP Type 1, it has all the qualifications for having fate. It is capable of making choices, affecting reality etc. There is no reason why it shouldn't have fate. Having a body or a soul is not a necessity for having fate.

 

[Gemstic]

As for NEP Type 1, it has all the qualifications for having fate. It is capable of making choices, affecting reality etc. There is no reason why it shouldn't have fate. Having a body or a soul is not a necessity for having fate.

Isn't someone that has NEP Type 2 able to do the same? It seems NEP Type 2 on its own doesn't mean you can't interact with and influence reality.

Q: Can NEP type 2 be affected by fate manipulation?
A: Well type 2 is just no. Since they don't exist on any level.

What if a character has a feat of manipulating the fate/mind/whatever of a NEP Type 2? Would that character be seen as a special case that can manipulate the fate/mind/whatever of a NEP Type 2?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

What if a character has a feat of manipulating the fate/mind/whatever of a NEP Type 2?

Yes, but we're talking about the default assumption here.

 

[Everything12]

Yes, that would just be advanced Non-Physical Interaction.

 

[Duedate8898]

I think it fair to say that Fate Manipulation should affect both. Since NEP aren't automatically assumed to have acausality of any form and since fate isn't something that is reliant on physical interactions or anything of that nature it should be plausible for someone to get around their NEP without having to be capable of affecting them physically.

As long as they're capable of interacting with others and being seen, there is no need to assume that they're fate doesn't exist or can't be manipulated.

 

[Regidian]

If they don't have concept of existence(for NEP2) how you want them to be affect by something that affect the existence of something/someone (fate affect your existence)

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Fate affects your actions not your existence.

 

[Regidian]

It affect the action of "you" so if you don't have a "you", it can't affect your action ("you" being your concept of existance/yourself)

 

[Duedate8898]

I don't think it's assumed that Fate is inherently tied to one's concept, just where they end up. And if you can take actions and move around and pretty much interact with existent things, I don't see why we should automatically assume you don't have a fate.

 

[Regidian]

Why it souldn't be assumed, you want to fate to affect what? Only existant thing can do action in first, you can't tell that fate affect dragon if dragon don't exist and for NEP 2 it will be something that even his concept not exist, and not because it can affect existant world that existant world can affect it

 

[Duedate8898]

Again, fate isn't something that is inherently tied to concepts or exitence. Fate merely determines where something ends up, and so if you're able to take action and interact with existent things then there really isn't any reason to say you have no fate unless we're also assuming that NEP 2 gives someone a form of acauasality.

 

[Regidian]

And again, something that don't exist, don't have "end" or action in first place, to be something you need to exist even as a concept, being non existant (at last NEP 2) you not something even in conceptual lvl, and being able to interact with existance don't mean they will be existant or that existant thing (like concept or people) will be able to affect them

 

[Rikimarox2]

Is that really how it works? I mean, doesn't Fate mean that someone will do a certain action in the future?

For example, Character A eats an apple at 11PM. That's their fate. That's what is destined to happen in the future.

But if they had their concept erased, then there is no fate. Because Character A no longer exists, and as such, fate is no longer a thing.

 

[Antoniofer]

Both abilities are unrelated, a nonexistent being is not necessary immune to fate manipulation if it do not have an ability that makes it immune.

 

[Regidian]

Is that really how it works? I mean, doesn't Fate mean that someone will do a certain action in the future?

For example, Character A eats an apple at 11PM. That's their fate. That's what is destined to happen in the future.

But if they had their concept erased, then there is no fate. Because Character A no longer exists, and as such, fate is no longer a thing.

It's how it work for me at least, we can wait for more people opinion but don't see how fate can't affect thing that don't even exist (if not specified to)

 

[YungManzi]

I'm mostly neutral on this, partially leaning towards "Fate works".

But I will say, without any doubt, Plot Manipulation would still be very effective against both types unless they are stated to not exist in the narrative itself.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Is that really how it works? I mean, doesn't Fate mean that someone will do a certain action in the future?

For example, Character A eats an apple at 11PM. That's their fate. That's what is destined to happen in the future.

But if they had their concept erased, then there is no fate. Because Character A no longer exists, and as such, fate is no longer a thing.

Not really.

Character A might not have a concept but if he kills Character B, whether he exists or doesn't exist, he made an action. He did something, he made a choice. That by itself makes him susceptible to fate.

 

[Regidian]

I'm mostly neutral on this, partially leaning towards "Fate works".

But I will say, without any doubt, Plot Manipulation would still be very effective against both types unless they are stated to not exist in the narrative itself.

For plot yes, even if not existing in existence/concept/reality, they still exist in the story

 

[Regidian]

Not really.

Character A might not have a concept but if he kills Character B, whether he exists or doesn't exist, he made an action. He did something, he made a choice. That by itself makes him susceptible to fate.

The prob with that is that the character is technically not he, it's just like nothing have killed B (NEP 2 at least), because if you tell like that even acausal type 5 do choice and action

 

[Everything12]

Pretty sure current opinion is that even 1-A Character can't affect NEP Type 2 without NPI (at least that was the opinion given last time someone asked what would happen), so Plot and Fate has no chance of working on them.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

because if you tell like that even acausal type 5 do choice and action

They do take actions, they just defy causality. So they can do things like attacking before moving. Or finishing before starting. They do act and take action, it's just that they don't have to follow the "there is a cause which brings an effect" notion.

 

[YungManzi]

Pretty sure current opinion is that even 1-A Character can't affect NEP Type 2 without NPI (at least that was the opinion given last time someone asked what would happen), so Plot and Fate has no chance of working on them.

That's... off.

Say what you want about fate; but by no means does being conceptually erased mean you don't exist in the actual narrative.

 

[Regidian]

They do take actions, they just defy causality. So they can do things like attacking before moving. Or finishing before starting. They do act and take action, it's just that they don't have to follow the "there is a cause which brings an effect" notion.

Technically we should not be able tell if a NEP 2 move or do action before but it's a other thing
Acausality type5 was an exemple for all acausality if we choose acausality type 2, NEP 2 is just a better version since they don't exist in present, past and futur

And for enforce my thing acausality type 2 is can't be affect in past/futur because don't exist in them so a non existant being that exist in none of them should not be affect too

 

[Firephoenixearl]

if we choose acausality type 2, NEP 2 is just a better version since they don't exist in present, past and futur

Not really. NEP is lacking a concept, whereas Acausality type 2 is "your future does not exist", you exist, your future or past do not.

Technically we should not be able tell if a NEP 2 move or do action before

We actually should, cus even though it "doesn't exist" it has very clear impacts on reality.

 

[Regidian]

And for type 2 you should have an ability for see them, know them, technicaly since they dont even have a concept of existence you can't think of them, since thinking lf them will give them an "existence" in some way (give them a name etc)

 

[Regidian]

Not really. NEP is lacking a concept, whereas Acausality type 2 is "your future does not exist", you exist, your future or past do not.


We actually should, cus even though it "doesn't exist" it has very clear impacts on reality.

NEP 2 lack not only existence but all thing that compose themself, it compose their past/present/futur too since part of them


For the two if they don't show impact reality they can't they need an ability to interact for do it, and only their action have impact not their mouvement if they don't want

 

[Regidian]

Having NEP 1 being able to be affect by fate can be okay

NEP 2 is a big no for me

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Seeing them or interacting with them is another issue, messing with their fate however, that's a different story entirely. They do not exist, the same cannot be said for their fate.

For the two if they don't show impact reality they can't they need an ability to interact for do it, and only their action have impact not their mouvement if they don't want

If the nonexistent is truly incapable of influencing reality at all, then i would say they would be resistant to fate and plot manip yes. If they can impact reality however, that's a different story.

 

[YungManzi]

I think I may understand where you're coming from here Earl.

You're saying even if they themselves don't exist; as long as they can interact with things that do exist, the outcome of their actions are still tied to fate/causality.

If that's kinda what you mean, I agree.