Cairne Bloodhoof vs Grommash Hellscream (3/3/0)

[Greatsage13th]

Alright, both of you back up. We don't want things to get too heated in here.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Alright, both of you back up. We don't want things to get too heated in here.

This is Var, there is no calm in var

 

[Udlmaster]

I'm talking about Sargeras' soul in Medivh, not the Avatar.

Yes, the fragment of soul that came from the Avatar.

You've swapped arguments now moving from the Avatar, to where you were arguing "infinity / infinity" to this. How quick the cookie crumbles.

Don't know where you pulled that one from, if even a miniscule fraction of Sargeras' soul(never stated TMK) is in the Avatar or Medivh, by your own notes for Warcraft as a verse, that person must scale to that fragment in durability.

Indeed!

5-B!

Glad you're finally learning.

Udl, you're reading very far into things for a guy who tried to be Blunt

That's a lie and you know it. You're now backtracking on the idea that you blatantly said that Garrosh's ability to use Gorehowl was shot and now trying to muddy the waters by retroactively declaring that you didn't mean shot at all and mean something else entirely.

I think that going from briefly 1v1ing Varian bloody Wrynn of all people to not really being able to put up a fight against a guy with very few prior feats is a rather big difference, yes.

Cairne Bloodhoof, who fought with the cursed Grommash Hellscream, who'd fought against Demons and the Undead alongside his loyal friend Thrall, who we spend much of Reign of Chaos and continued to fight along with the Tauren, alongside all the feats he preformed during Reign of Chaos, which I won't bother with here since there are plenty enough to be getting of with;

The mighty chief of the Bloodhoof tauren, Cairne is a peerless warrior and a wise leader of his ancient people. Though slowed somewhat by the weight of age, Cairne still possesses the strength and valor of twenty men. This great hearted giant knows that his people are in grave danger of extermination from the marauding centaurs. However, he has never given up hope of one day finding a way to lead his people to a new land where they can make their home and live in peace. - Warcraft 3: Reign of Chaos manual - pg. 45

Upon the windswept mesa of Thunder Bluff, Cairne built a refuge for his people, where tauren of every tribe are welcome. Over time, the scattered tauren tribes united under Cairne’s rule. There are a few tribes who disagree about the direction their new nation should take, but all agree that Cairne is the wisest and best suited to lead them towards the future. - World of Warcraft game manual - pg. 165

Cairne Bloodhoof - Cairne is dedicated to serving his people and to watching over their safety in an ever-darkening world. An outstanding warrior, Cairne is considered one of the most dangerous creatures alive. Despite his strength and valor, he is a gentle soul who longs only for the peace and tranquillity of the open plains. It is rumoured that if he could lay the responsibilities of chieftain on another, Cairne would leave Thunder Bluff in an instant and retire to the wilds. Many believe that he is training his son, Baine, to take his place as chieftain one fateful day. - World of Warcraft game manual - pg. 167

Cairne sighed. He believed he could win this fight, or else he would not have issued the mak'gora. Life was not so pale and devoid of delight for him that he was ready to relinquish his grasp upon it. Far from it. He had made the challenge—and accepted Garrosh's decision to return to the “old way”—^because he needed to end Garrosh's arrogant, shorts ighted, dangerous rule over the Horde Cairne loved so much. He planned to take Garrosh's place until Thrall returned to mete out whatever justice he saw fit. Cairne was ready to accept it. - The shattering : prelude to Cataclysm - pg. 217

At the last moment, with a grace that belied his bulk, the tauren moved aside and let Garrosh's own speed propel him harmlessly past. The ore tried to halt his for¬ward movement and almost succeeded, but not before Cairne had brought up the spear and plunged it into Garrosh's right bicep. Garrosh cried out in surprise, affront, and pain. His grip on the weapon loosened. Cairne lowered his horned head and rammed it into the wound, knocking Garrosh off his feet and causing him to nearly lose his grip on Gorehowl. If he had, all would have been lost for the ore. Once a weapon was dropped, the rules clearly stated that it could not be retrieved by either party. - The shattering : prelude to Cataclysm - pg. 219

Even Garrosh is surprised by how fast Cairne is;

“Well played, old bull,” Garrosh said, panting just a little. “I admit, I underestimated your speed. It would seem that it's just your wits that are slow.” The shattering : prelude to Cataclysm - pg. 220

I could go further on how Cairne was absolutely dominating the fight and other examples beyond any "oo, but the skill with the weapons thou" argument you might come up with.

Yes, which is definitely why I like to have people check my profiles to make sure I'm not ******* up

You literally made up the idea that Garrosh's skill "was shot" with Gorehowl not even a few posts ago.

yet mostly don't have people to look over my shoulder because oftentimes I'm the sole active supporter of verses.

I'm the sole supporter for many verses, yet my understanding of the verses are complete enough that my assessments remain iron clad, which is why you keep moving on from the arguments I bring up.

Likewise, is why you keep vaguely gesturing to reasons while at the same time refusing to actually present the arguments in another thread.

 

[Greatsage13th]

This is Var, there is no calm in var

What?

 

[Udlmaster]

What?

"This is war, there is no calm in war."

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yes, the fragment of soul that came from the Avatar.

You've swapped arguments now moving from the Avatar, to where you were arguing "infinity / infinity" to this. How quick the cookie crumbles

I know it's such a big heresy to DARE not use almost the same wording for every argument! But listen, Udl, I can freely choose to not repeat myself ad-infinitum.

You don't like my arguments, I don't like yours, we could go until the end of time, because you haven't changed your arguments since like twenty posts ago, and I've been recycling arguments at my leisure with fancy ass different wordings, we have our opinions as to what is right, they aren't changing, and we're just going in circles. Nuff is enough.

You can think you won if you want, but this is me calling stop to a cycle that, if I didn't, would just go on until one of us got bored.

That's a lie and you know it. You're now backtracking on the idea that you blatantly said that Garrosh's ability to use Gorehowl was shot and now trying to muddy the waters by retroactively declaring that you didn't mean shot at all and mean something else entirely.

Cairne Bloodhoof, who fought with the cursed Grommash Hellscream, who'd fought against Demons and the Undead alongside his loyal friend Thrall, who we spend much of Reign of Chaos and continued to fight along with the Tauren, alongside all the feats he preformed during Reign of Chaos, which I won't bother with here since there are plenty enough to be getting of with;

Even Garrosh is surprised by how fast Cairne is;

I could go further on how Cairne was absolutely dominating the fight and other examples beyond any "oo, but the skill with the weapons thou" argument you might come up with.

Even if we downplay Cairne and wank Garrosh, Cairne wins at their base peaks

Udl, Udl, handbag down, read what I said. I'm not saying Cairne doesn't beat Garrosh, and I'm not saying that Cairne doesn't outstat Garrosh(in fact I said the exact opposite, I said Cairne has better stats and very easily debated superior skill[as in, he should, but there's wiggle room for trying to argue comparable]) I'm saying Garrosh was not at his apsolute peak, not that he wasn't skilled with Gorehowl at the time, but are you gonna tell me you'd run at 100% if you got shot? Probably not. That's the point, there is no deep meaning like you seem to think, there's just a direct sense.

And I'm also not saying Cairne isn't skilled, I'm just saying he has few FEATS, as in, he doesn't really do shit on-screen.

You literally made up the idea that Garrosh's skill "was shot" with Gorehowl not even a few posts ago.

You are debating me not the version of me in your head Udl, if the guy making the posts is saying it's blunt as can be, and said guy has a history of being Blunt, you aren't a Telepath, don't pretend you are.

I'm the sole supporter for many verses, yet my understanding of the verses are complete enough that my assessments remain iron clad, which is why you keep moving on from the arguments I bring up.

Likewise, is why you keep vaguely gesturing to reasons while at the same time refusing to actually present the arguments in another thread.

Clearly your assessment of Warcraft is Ironclad if I'm debating you on it!

sigh nobody's the end all be all Udl, I'm not, you're not, Ultima's not. frankly, I like pushback, I get it from Archimonde, I got it on the Discussion Thread, cause it means I'm not at the head of a bunch of people who just blindly follow what I do, it means I can get second opinions on shit I'm unsure about.

What?

I'm messing around Sage lol.

Anyways, this is my last post in response to Udl, we've frankly burned out of every wording of the same exact copy/paste arguments, and someone just has to say "Agree to disagree" cause we ain't getting anywhere

 

[Udlmaster]

I know it's such a big heresy to DARE not use almost the same wording for every argument!

I mean, why stop now.

But listen, Udl, I can freely choose to not repeat myself ad-infinitum.

Fantastic, you've learned pattern recognition.

I'm not saying Cairne doesn't beat Garrosh

I know, my hand bag is down sweatie, let me pull out receipts;

Udl, you're reading very far into things for a guy who tried to be Blunt

This was in response to;

Implication here is that he isn't skilled with two-handed axes, especially by saying it was "shot".

Don't try and weasel out of this with some argument of "Oh, I didn't mean shot as in the meaning of shot, I just meant..." because it's obvious what you meant by it and now you're backtracking. Hard.

Which was in response to;

Udl, mate, I could come up with excuses to not make Garrosh lose to Cairne in first key currently, such as he'd juet gotten Gorehowl so his skill was shot

Hope this helps.

I'm not saying Cairne doesn't beat Garrosh

No, you just said you could and then made up a lie to try and pseudo-flex some sort of knowledge you don't have.

I'm saying Garrosh was not at his apsolute peak, not that he wasn't skilled with Gorehowl at the time

Liar.

such as he'd juet gotten Gorehowl so his skill was shot

And I'm also not saying Cairne isn't skilled, I'm just saying he has few FEATS, as in, he doesn't really do shit on-screen.

All of WC3: Reign of Chaos

You are debating me not the version of me in your head Udl

No, I'm responding to what you write.

nobody's the end all be all Udl

Nah, I'm that/b!tch.

Clearly your assessment of Warcraft is Ironclad if I'm debating you on it!

You could debate me on self-evident claims like the Sky is blue. Debating a topic doesn't mean it isn't ironclad or a strong point, given to the fact that you've dropped points throughout this debate despite constantly gesturing to being in contact with ******* God.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I mean, why stop now.

Because, oh dear myriadofmemes, some of us have better things to do then argue in circles and hoping that now, the 50th time repeating the same argument with different wording, that the other side will understand!

No, you just said you could and then made up a lie to try and pseudo-flex some sort of knowledge you don't have.
Liar.

What am I thinking right now then? Go ahead, since you're Telepathic, tell me! I'm even writing it down so I can cross-check the answer you give with utmost accuracy!

If you're wrong, your rights to try and say "you meant this!!!" are revoked!  so no pressure!

You could debate me on self-evident claims like the Sky is blue. Debating a topic doesn't mean it isn't ironclad or a strong point, given to the fact that you've dropped points throughout this debate despite constantly gesturing to being in contact with ******* God.

Myriadofmemes, I drop points because unlike you, I actually want to have a fruitful debate instead of beating my head against a brick wall when neither side will be conceding or compromising

 

[Shmooply]

I ain't reading allat.
i was gonna vote for cairne in the first place anyways lmao

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yeah the peak debate was on first page cause either or could win anyway, it's just who you think has a better chance lol

 

[Udlmaster]

Because, oh dear myriadofmemes, some of us have better things to do then argue in circles and hoping that now, the 50th time repeating the same argument with different wording, that the other side will understand!

Ah, I forgot, the reading comprehension issue.

I'll elaborate.

"Why stop now, that's all you've been doing."

What am I thinking right now then? Go ahead, since you're Telepathic, tell me! I'm even writing it down so I can cross-check the answer you give with utmost accuracy!

I don't have to be telepathy. I only need to fulfil;

The balance of Probability
&
Beyond reasonable doubt.

I'm afraid, it's blatant now that you're back tracking with the upmost speed.

Myriadofmemes, I drop points because unlike you, I actually want to have a fruitful debate instead of beating my head against a brick wall when neither side will be conceding or compromising

Well, the answer is simply obvious. I'm not some cowardly "we must meet in the middle" Sophist, it's blatant given your inability to source anything except by vaguely gesturing towards it while I have repeatedly bestowed facts, feats and statements to back up all of my conclusions, that you are simply in the wrong and have deluded yourself that I'm just being rude or stonewalling.

Perhaps the right answer doesn't lie between us. And given the past week of arguing, it certainly doesn't lie with you.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Ah, I forgot, the reading comprehension issue.

I'll elaborate.

"Why stop now, that's all you've been doing."

1. Very rich coming from you

2. I got bored of arguing in circles, simple as that.

I don't have to be telepathy. I only need to fulfil;

The balance of Probability
&
Beyond reasonable doubt.

I'm afraid, it's blatant now that you're back tracking with the upmost speed.

So basically you're assuming what I meant and sticking to it like a locust to a fresh sprout

Udl, you said it yourself, you're not a telepath, so why are you trying to tell ME what I actually meant? You are like the guy who was arguing with the person who WROTE THE RESEARCH PAPER as to what said paper actually meant.

Well, the answer is simply obvious. I'm not some cowardly "we must meet in the middle" Sophist, it's blatant given your inability to source anything except by vaguely gesturing towards it while I have repeatedly bestowed facts, feats and statements to back up all of my conclusions, that you are simply in the wrong and have deluded yourself that I'm just being rude or stonewalling.

Perhaps the right answer doesn't lie between us. And given the past week of arguing, it certainly doesn't lie with you.

I could say the same of you Udl, we both think our arguments are correct and that the opposition's are wrong, it is what it is lol

 

[Udlmaster]

I got bored of arguing in circles, simple as that.

Yes, well, it'll happen if you keep responding with the same thing I already addressed.

So basically you're assuming what I meant and sticking to it like a locust to a fresh sprout

No. I'm taking the meaning of "shot" and disregarding your further attempts at trying to resend the statement and reframe it.

Udl, you said it yourself, you're not a telepath, so why are you trying to tell ME what I actually meant?

Similar how the courts can decide if someone intended a criminal act.

Sometimes, it only falls within the balance of probability, other times, it's beyond reasonable doubt.

This is one of those times. I don't need to be psychic, you're transparent.

You are like the guy who was arguing with the person who WROTE THE RESEARCH PAPER as to what said paper actually meant.

Sorry, Rowling. I don't think Hermione is black.

I could say the same of you Udl, we both think our arguments are correct and that the opposition's are wrong, it is what it is lol

Indeed, but I'm not the one appealing to a foreign entity, not the one who refuses to provide facts or evidence to back up their claims, but I am the one who has presented several examples to back up my claims, debunked your absurd argument that avatars are "infinity/infinity" of the true form, pointed out, rightly, that your constant assertions towards a careful and more consistent view on the tiering of WoW has fallen flat on the very fact you're using an RPG calculation made by Bambu with my support as justification for the entirety of Tier 7.

Need I go on? You've embarrassed yourself enough in this thread alone.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Uh, bump

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yes, well, it'll happen if you keep responding with the same thing I already addressed.

No. I'm taking the meaning of "shot" and disregarding your further attempts at trying to resend the statement and reframe it.


Similar how the courts can decide if someone intended a criminal act.

Sometimes, it only falls within the balance of probability, other times, it's beyond reasonable doubt.

This is one of those times. I don't need to be psychic, you're transparent.

Sorry, Rowling. I don't think Hermione is black.


Indeed, but I'm not the one appealing to a foreign entity, not the one who refuses to provide facts or evidence to back up their claims, but I am the one who has presented several examples to back up my claims, debunked your absurd argument that avatars are "infinity/infinity" of the true form, pointed out, rightly, that your constant assertions towards a careful and more consistent view on the tiering of WoW has fallen flat on the very fact you're using an RPG calculation made by Bambu with my support as justification for the entirety of Tier 7.

Need I go on? You've embarrassed yourself enough in this thread alone.

Alright Genius, let's go through in three steps

1. there's proof in the Harry Potter books themselves that Rowling was talking out of her ass, you made an assumption of what I meant, and don't have proof you're correct in your assumption.

2. I'm not going to argue with you until one of us either ******* dies or quits VSBW, go find M2B3/myriadofmemes' Discord or other social media or see if he's still active here if you want to have an endless debate on Warcraft, I'm not your guy because I don't give enough ***** to argue about scaling for an entire versus thread. You do you. Also, you not liking debating in bibles is what got you to quit scaling the verse here in the first place, I just find that funny

3. You said that the 7-A calc was an RPG-Only calc right?

The RPG is non-canon, so even though in-game values are probably a bit lower than they actually are in-lore, we're using those. If Udl gets his way with making RPG profiles, then the old values still apply to that.

You see, Udl, when you're going out of your way to try and discredit a calc, for the love of hades be right, okay? Bambu even said that there's a 3ish meter difference so there's very little to be said

 

[Udlmaster]

there's proof in the Harry Potter books themselves that Rowling was talking out of her ass, you made an assumption of what I meant, and don't have proof you're correct in your assumption.

And there's obvious proof you're backtracking now.

I'm not going to argue with you until one of us either ******* dies or quits VSBW, go find M2B3/myriadofmemes' Discord or other social media or see if he's still active here if you want to have an endless debate on Warcraft, I'm not your guy because I don't give enough ***** to argue about scaling for an entire versus thread. You do you. Also, you not liking debating in bibles is what got you to quit scaling the verse here in the first place, I just find that funny

Nah, I don't mind the bible throwing, I just didn't like that it wasn't going anywhere productive.

You see, Udl, when you're going out of your way to try and discredit a calc, for the love of hades be right, okay? Bambu even said that there's a 3ish meter difference so there's very little to be said

Wasn't discrediting a calc, was discrediting your use of it.

Also, in the game, there's what? 40ish needles? Compared to "at least a thousand of them" as stated in the RPG. The calc uses mountain sizes too, if you were to actually calculate how big Thousand Needles is in game along with the mountain border, it'd be far lower.

 

[DaReaperMan]

And there's obvious proof you're backtracking now.

If the DaReaperMan in your head is doing so then they are an eejit.

Here's how I see it, you thought you had a gotcha moment, and when it started failing, you turned to trying to peer pressure me into admitting something I didn't do. Spoiler alert, you could get every staff on the wiki on your side and I wouldn't admit something I didn't do.

Nah, I don't mind the bible throwing, I just didn't like that it wasn't going anywhere productive.

LMFAO

Oh, that's rich, considering you're still here arguing with me about shit that doesn't matter, and isn't going anywhere productive. We are both stubborn and think we're right, the sooner you accept that, the better, because you sure as **** ain't getting the last word from me lol

Wasn't discrediting a calc, was discrediting your use of it.

Also, in the game, there's what? 40ish needles? Compared to "at least a thousand of them" as stated in the RPG. The calc uses mountain sizes too, if you were to actually calculate how big Thousand Needles is in game along with the mountain border, it'd be far lower.

Well. Consider the original calc valid, then, given this changes the height by a measly 3-ish meters.

Once again, read the thing your spoutting on about, you've been at least trying to do it every other time, but ya randomly dropped the anvil here and you don't even seem tired

 

[Udlmaster]

Here's how I see it

Cool story.

The backtracking is just pretty obvious, and it's obvious you're doing it by not only how defence you've being but how you're trying to frame it as me reading too deeply into it, me not having the "authority" to say so and me also really wanting a gatcha moment.

Oh, that's rich, considering you're still here arguing with me about shit that doesn't matter, and isn't going anywhere productive. We are both stubborn and think we're right, the sooner you accept that, the better, because you sure as **** ain't getting the last word from me lol

You literally brought up all the stuff with Mannoroth and then continued to debate me on the alternate timeline stuff, I came to give my opinion on why Cairne beats Grommash, you was bringing up Tier 1 Sargeras and Planet level entities.

 

[Greatsage13th]

bump

 

[DaReaperMan]

Cool story.

The backtracking is just pretty obvious, and it's obvious you're doing it by not only how defence you've being but how you're trying to frame it as me reading too deeply into it, me not having the "authority" to say so and me also really wanting a gatcha moment.

Very, very rich coming from you considering the below

You literally brought up all the stuff with Mannoroth and then continued to debate me on the alternate timeline stuff, I came to give my opinion on why Cairne beats Grommash, you was bringing up Tier 1 Sargeras and Planet level entities.

Mannoroth came about because of current scaling(hell, I didn't even play the circular scaling card I couldve because of Thrall due to not thinking about it at the time)

you brought up Medivh, and Tirion, and a whole bunch of other folks to try and argue that stronger characters get Harmed by weaker characters all the time. I brought up Sargeras to go "uh, no, we aren't scaling Medivh's durability like that when we'd have to go all the way"

This isn't all disconnected, and how I scale is to poke holes in shit(and try to argue for it) until I don't find a good reason to argue against said scaling, starting from the highest rating I can give the ******. It ain't popular, but it helps me see Circular Scaling coming a mile away

 

[Peppersalt43]

Uh, bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Oh snap , I think I might post a RDR meme just to represent how I got into this situation lol. In the meantime, I'll analyze the fight+thread and wait for emotions to dim down.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Oh snap , I think I might post a RDR meme just to represent how I got into this situation lol. In the meantime, I'll analyze the fight+thread and wait for emotions to dim down.

(I'd hope after two months things have calmed down lol)

 

[Peppersalt43]

Anyway, bump

 

[Udlmaster]

(I'd hope after two months things have calmed down lol)

 

[DaReaperMan]

Honestly, if/when I make a Putricide page, that will be the quote. Nothing else even comes close.

BTW, any progress on WoW RPG profiles?

 

[Udlmaster]

BTW, any progress on WoW RPG profiles?

They've been on the backburner while I finish some projects. I was also ill for a few weeks so even they started to die down.

At some point I plan to do what I did with the WoD powers and just make a massive blog with every power and ability in the RPG and slap it in there (Except for Physiology pages, since Eternals are gonna have one)

 

[Greatsage13th]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump