Caesar tries to get his revenge

[Chariot190]

>It's not like Kars can blow away Caesar's basic bubbles or cut them with a headress like Whamuu can. His bone swords are technically part of his body and would probably still be affected by Hamon. Caesar has a massive range advantage, long story short. Kars probably gets suprised by Bubble Cutter. Kars has experience with Hamon, but the way Caesar uses it is something that Kars has simply no idea about aside from his limited direct experience.

So? He has other methods to take care of that, hell he doesn't even have to do that, he can lure him into a trap and Caesar will follow. Not really, don't forget Kars can extend his bone blade, he could slice a room full of people and stabbed through several vampires when talking to Lisa Lisa, it can extend quite a bit. Kars would get surprised for like half a second, that's it, it won't effect him in anyway other then him going ah that's kinda cool. Kars doesn't need experience when he can adapt on the spot, the bubble cutters aren't even the issue, it's the lens.

>Soap was first invented in the real world in 2800 BC (Or BCE). This is long after Kars, Wamuu and Esidisi began hybernation, so it's not even a remote possibility that another Hamon user could have used the technique (Not to mention one of them would probably mention it if they had seen that before). While Kars might have delt with an ability like the Hamon Cutter, he wouldn't be used to the way Caesar uses it.

Once again, so? He only has to see Caesar do it once, bam he now knows how it functions, how it can be used, all the ways it can be utilized, etc, he's a pillar men and a genius among them at that. Also as for the first point, Kars knows what tarza is in 1938/9. I think he knows what soap is and how it could be used.

>Caesar can turn the arena into a minefield of Hamon Bubbles for Kars that's completely safe for Caesar himself to walk through, before proceeding to throw a danmaku of Bubble Cutters. Caesar spams both of these moves in character, so this it's very likely that this happens.

He could if Kars lets him. Kars won't just stand there and he's going to notice if Caesar starts doing something like that, but that only that only matters if there's an external light source. There isn't unless one gets made.

>Kars only knows about Caesar's most basic technique, while Caesar knows everything Kars has to offer, but dosn't know that he knows that, so he'd still use caution and attack from range.

That's a blatant lie, he knows of the saber but that's it really, he's never actually seen Kars fight or heard of someone fighting Kars nor does he know how strong Kars actually is or how sly he is.

>Long story short, Caesar wins more often then not, and has my vote.

I disagree, Kars has way more then you're giving him credit for and the thing that wham said was a threat to Kars, ain't even usable in this situation unless given an external light source, which Caesar would have to make. Not only but the hamon cutters wouldn't do much to Kars bone blade, it took litterally all of Joseph's hamon to break it to the point he couldn't use hamon anymore, and that was post deep pass. Hamon only effects pillar men if it's strong enough or you break the skin. As shown with santana. Kars can and will slice through the cutters zero issue. plus it's be easy to trick Caesar given that he willingly falls into traps and he let wham escape and counter his lens killing him, he'd honestly probably do the same with Kars, getting himself killed again.

 

[Chariot190]

>Kars is superior also because he was the highest in the mural the Speedwagon foundation found about him. However, this is just about strength itself. Kars' kit is far worse at dealing with Caesar's powers than Wamuu's or even Esidisi. Besides, Esidisi was above Wamuu, yet Wamuu was a far tougher opponent for Joseph, requiring Caesar's Hamon.

Yes and araki said Kars is stronger. Than all the pillar men. It's only worse if there's an external light source for the lens' to work, otherwise they're basically just hamon cutters. And if they start in a random room, presumably Kars' room, that's useless and that's also the thing wham said Kars would have an issue with, nothing else. He didn't require Caesar's hamon to beat wham? In fact hamon was barely a thing in their fight, they had a chariot race with (hamon infused) weapons and the like, not an actual fight. Joseph didn't NEED Caesars hamon, he barely used it in actual combat. That's ignoring that Joseph and Caesar were exactly equal in power prior to post deep pass.

 

[SpookyShadow]

Kars knows how to play guitar so maybe he knows about soap

 

[Chariot190]

Seeing as he spent and dedicated a large chunk of his waking hours learning about modern society and advances, including things like presumably going to a theater to watch Tarzan, yeah he should.

 

[Armorchompy]

The one hit Caesar landed on Wamuu very seriously wounded him already. So saying that Kars will adapt after one hit, while true, still will start him at a disadvantage. And while it's true that he could use his blades' 4-5 meter range, he never really does that in an actual fight, despite the fact that, in his two fights with Joseph, he could have killed him multiple times with it. This situation is no different.

Caesar knows about Light Mode, he was there when Joseph and Kars had their freefall battle. And he definitely at least saw Kars almost kill Joseph, so he knows he's dangerous- though him being a pillar man would already warrant that.

Knowing what soap does is irrelevant. Kars has already seen him make bubbles anyway, just the slow, basic ones though. And as for luring him into a trap, he needs a zombie to do the decoy thing, and there's also the fact that he doesn't respect Caesar a smuch as he did Lisa Lisa, so it's arguable he simply wouldn't.

Also, what would be the methods he has to destroy the bubbles?

 

[JooCipher]

crushed bubble salad FRA

 

[The_Smashor]

Your overestimating Caesar's edgy teenager phase. The main reason Caesar was so reckless was because Wamuu was the one who killed his father (Albeit unknowingly) and he was mad about Joseph talking bad about his grandfather. He also beleived the Pillar Men were vunerable at that point. Don't get me wrong, he's not going to check every nook and cranny for traps, but Kars isn't going to just trick him casually. Also, Kars getting Vampires would be outside help and require prep.

This isn't Novel Kars. He dosn't instantly know exactly how something works just by looking at it. He has that as Ultimate Life Form Kars, but we can't scale ULF Kars' intelligence to base Kars. Kars knowing about Tarzan is clearly a huge intelligence outlier, since even his smarter counterpart was tricked by Joseph on occasion.

Kars won't just stand there, but he'd have to move slowly lest his finger or worse gets blown off by some ripple-infused dish soap. Getting hit by one of Caesar's bubbles hurts Pillar Men badly. This gives Caesar more oppertunity. If his bone blade gets hit by a bubble, then a huge piece might fly off. Not to mention that characters as durable as Stroheim arn't one shot by Kars' blades (Stroheim was able to casually catch one), a level of durability that Caesar has most certainly reached. Light Mode would make Kars a bigger target.

Caesar was literally there when Kars attacked the Nazis, and saw a good portion of his first fight with Joseph. He dosn't know every trick in Kars' book, but he knows way more about Kars then what Kars knows about him.

There is no "Deep Pass" in Part 2. Caesar was on his last legs and was pratically dead when he did that. At most he might have given Joseph a tiny power boost. Also, like Armor said, Kars dosn't spam long range blades in combat.

Don't get me wrong, this is a hard fight for Caesar, but definately one that he can win. While Kars cheats in fights, Caesar is willing to do that as well (Well, at least he's willing to cheat in cards). He's more then capable of calling Kars' bluff. If he can figure out when Joseph effing Joestar is cheating, he shouldn't be tricked stupidly easily.

 

[Chariot190]

>The one hit Caesar landed on Wamuu very seriously wounded him already. So saying that Kars will adapt after one hit, while true, still will start him at a disadvantage. And while it's true that he could use his blades' 4-5 meter range, he never really does that in an actual fight, despite the fact that, in his two fights with Joseph, he could have killed him multiple times with it. This situation is no different.

It'd also do less damage to Kars then it did with wham. And the reason it did so much damage to wham was because his wind mode acted as a vacuum and sucked in a bunch of cutters, the fact Kars doesnt have wind mode actually helps him here and by quite a bit. Wouldn't be any worse then the time he got shot full of holes by stroheim, which effected him barely if at all. And that's implying the hit lands, Kars can very easily slice it and go from there. The situation is drastically different, Caesar fights at range so Kars would use his own range. Plus he never actually fought Joseph. He was being a high and mighty ass and using Lisa Lisa as leverage, Joseph's fight with him was more of Kars toying with him because he had a hostage and for Lisa Lisa he stealthed incap. Kars can also blind Caesar fyi which he did use in combat and as a lead. Caesar can't aim at Kars if he gets solar flared. And Kars hides and stealth attacks after doing that. That's his go to in his only actual real fight.

>Caesar knows about Light Mode, he was there when Joseph and Kars had their freefall battle. And he definitely at least saw Kars almost kill Joseph, so he knows he's dangerous- though him being a pillar man would already warrant that.

No he knows about the blade and that it's sharp, nothing else and I wouldn't call it a battle, it's running to a ledge then Joseph forcing Kars to back off because he had the stone. Yes that's true but that's standard assumption. That wouldn't effect the battle.

>Knowing what soap does is irrelevant. Kars has already seen him make bubbles anyway, just the slow, basic ones though. And as for luring him into a trap, he needs a zombie to do the decoy thing, and there's also the fact that he doesn't respect Caesar a smuch as he did Lisa Lisa, so it's arguable he simply wouldn't.

Knowing what soap and what hamon does though is relevant. It ain't hard to figure out what Caesar can do with it. And hamon cutter ain't even a new thing. The only issue Kars has here is the lens aspect but that's only a threat with an external light source, which there isn't. Kars can lead him into traps without a zombie or trick him. Caesar is suicidal against pillar men, if Kars wants to trick him Caesar would likely do so. Also it shouldn't be hard to find a zombie given the location. It has little if anything to do with respect, Kars pulls tricks because he doesn't care about the method and he wants to win, he says that himself, in fact him saying he respects Lisa Lisa was a guise. He was lying so he could lure Lisa Lisa into a trap in the first place.

>Also, what would be the methods he has to destroy the bubbles?

Litterally anything, bone blade works fine. The bubbles don't pack enough hamon to damage it in the slightest, it took post deep pass Joseph a full powered overdrive with all his hamon to the point after doing so he was completely defenseless and unable to use hamon. Caesar doesn't have that much hamon nor does one bubble.

 

[TheArsenal1212]

Kars FRA

 

[Armorchompy]

"It'd also do less damage to Kars then it did with wham. And the reason it did so much damage to wham was because his wind mode acted as a vacuum and sucked in a bunch of cutters, the fact Kars doesnt have wind mode actually helps him here and by quite a bit. Wouldn't be any worse then the time he got shot full of holes by stroheim, which effected him barely if at all. And that's implying the hit lands, Kars can very easily slice it and go from there. The situation is drastically different, Caesar fights at range so Kars would use his own range. Plus he never actually fought Joseph. He was being a high and mighty ass and using Lisa Lisa as leverage, Joseph's fight with him was more of Kars toying with him because he had a hostage and for Lisa Lisa he stealthed incap. Kars can also blind Caesar fyi which he did use in combat and as a lead. Caesar can't aim at Kars if he gets solar flared. And Kars hides and stealth attacks after doing that. That's his go to in his only actual real fight."

There are a ton of mistakes in this imo. I agree that it would do more damage to Wamuu than Kars, but it would definitely be a lot more debilitating than Stroheim's bullets, since it's filled with Hamon. And he could not destroy them with his blades, since they're made of his bones. Doing that would just destroy them (Remember that in their second fight, Joseph does smash away one of Kars' blades.). In fact, since it's in character for Kars to do that, such a thing would make winning a lot easier for Caesar. Kars was also being at range when Joseph was falling with him and held the stone of Aya, a moment where he absolutely was serious. It's true that he could blind him, but Caesar would throw out an attack at the same time, and Kars would try to deflect it.

"No he knows about the blade and that it's sharp, nothing else and I wouldn't call it a battle, it's running to a ledge then Joseph forcing Kars to back off because he had the stone. Yes that's true but that's standard assumption. That wouldn't effect the battle."

He saw it not cutting Stroheim's hand, and then, when he activated it, absolutely tear him apart. I recently reread Part 2, and the fight is definitely longer than that.

"Litterally anything, bone blade works fine. The bubbles don't pack enough hamon to damage it in the slightest, it took post deep pass Joseph a full powered overdrive with all his hamon to the point after doing so he was completely defenseless and unable to use hamon. Caesar doesn't have that much hamon nor does one bubble."

Caesar is about equal in Hamon, again deep pass isn't a thing now, and though one bubble wouldn't snap it off, it would probably break the sophisticated light mode chainsaw mechanism. And after that Caesar can take one or two hits from him. And Joseph lost his Hamon cause he was getting tired, not due to that one attack. In fact, I cannot check rn but I think it might have gone a different way.

 

[Chariot190]

>Your overestimating Caesar's edgy teenager phase. The main reason Caesar was so reckless was because Wamuu was the one who killed his father (Albeit unknowingly) and he was mad about Joseph talking bad about his grandfather. He also beleived the Pillar Men were vunerable at that point. Don't get me wrong, he's not going to check every nook and cranny for traps, but Kars isn't going to just trick him casually. Also, Kars getting Vampires would be outside help and require prep.

Not really, what happened happened, it doesn't matter why because the situation is the exact same here, it ain't hard to piss him off and he walked into a trap, him thinking they're vulnerable only goes to show his stupidity and angst, he was wrong and he died for it. Kars can make vampires easy, and given it's at the mansion he can just grab one. No prep involved. But you're acting like that's the only thing Kars can do.

>This isn't Novel Kars. He dosn't instantly know exactly how something works just by looking at it. He has that as Ultimate Life Form Kars, but we can't scale ULF Kars' intelligence to base Kars. Kars knowing about Tarzan is clearly a huge intelligence outlier, since even his smarter counterpart was tricked by Joseph on occasion.

That ain't even a novel Kars thing, nor an ultimate thing, that's a pillar men thing in general, even Santana can figure out things within seconds and Kars is a scientific genius that makes Santana look like garbage. And he knows what soap is and what hamon is, he can deduce how it works. Don't twist what I said. Kars is literally the smartest pillar men what are you in about? And Kars knows because he researched for like a week, that isn't an outlier, especially for a extraordinary genius.

>Kars won't just stand there, but he'd have to move slowly lest his finger or worse gets blown off by some ripple-infused dish soap. Getting hit by one of Caesar's bubbles hurts Pillar Men badly. This gives Caesar more oppertunity. If his bone blade gets hit by a bubble, then a huge piece might fly off. Not to mention that characters as durable as Stroheim arn't one shot by Kars' blades (Stroheim was able to casually catch one), a level of durability that Caesar has most certainly reached. Light Mode would make Kars a bigger target.

He'd only have to move slowly if there was already a bunch out in the open, there isn't so that's a moot point. And not how those work, at all actually, especially given he can just slice them. A soap bubble won't be doing shit to the blade, ever, it took 'post deep pass Joseph his entire hamon reserve to do what you're saying one bubble could do. It can't and won't, ever, in any situation break the bone blade when it's numerous times weaker than what did. Stroheim was literally one shot by the bone blade and so was Lisa Lisa, who's 6x Caesar. Plus stroheim is stronger than Caesar. Caesar just has the hard pillar men counter.

>Caesar was literally there when Kars attacked the Nazis, and saw a good portion of his first fight with Joseph. He dosn't know every trick in Kars' book, but he knows way more about Kars then what Kars knows about him.

No he wasn't? He was in another room across the house, he didn't see the attack, he saw some of the encounter but not all. Saying he did is a straight up lie.

>There is no "Deep Pass" in Part 2. Caesar was on his last legs and was pratically dead when he did that. At most he might have given Joseph a tiny power boost. Also, like Armor said, Kars dosn't spam long range blades in combat.

I'd argue that when the bubble popped he inhereted his hamon, seeing as it shocks and runs up Joseph's body the same way deep pass did. And dude, will was bisected when he did his. Caesar being weak means nothing. You'd be right if he didn't use it in half the instances he tried to kill someone. But regardless even if you don't think there was, it took all of Joseph's hamon to break the blade, only way Caesar is breaking the blade is if he uses all his hamon rendering himself useless and vulnerable while Kars has the rest of his body that's functional.

>Don't get me wrong, this is a hard fight for Caesar, but definately one that he can win. While Kars cheats in fights, Caesar is willing to do that as well (Well, at least he's willing to cheat in cards). He's more then capable of calling Kars' bluff. If he can figure out when Joseph effing Joestar is cheating, he shouldn't be tricked stupidly easily.

Caesar has literally never cheated in a fight, Kars tricked lisa lisa who is way more cunning and sly than Caesar, even Joseph was like ah shit. The only thing that's a threat to Kars is actually useless in a closed room (the lens, as stated by wham) and not to mention Kars can low key blitz him. He low key blitzed Lisa Lisa who is 3-6x Caesar.

 

[Chariot190]

>There are a ton of mistakes in this imo. I agree that it would do more damage to Wamuu than Kars, but it would definitely be a lot more debilitating than Stroheim's bullets, since it's filled with Hamon. And he could not destroy them with his blades, since they're made of his bones. Doing that would just destroy them (Remember that in their second fight, Joseph does smash away one of Kars' blades.).

It did more damage to wham because not only is he weaker his wind suit sucked them in. Except unlike stroheim and pumping him full of holes only one or two will cut Kars at best, not a few dozen like wham. You do remember that it took ALL of Joseph's hamon to break it? And even then there was a struggle right? If Caesar wants to break it it'd have to be all of his hamon, anything less and Kars bone blade will simply overpower it. Also you seem to forget if the hamon isn't strong enough it won't do anything to pillar men, kars' bone blade has a feat of needing far more hamon than any of his bubbles have to break it, anything less will run of his body as shown with Santana.

>In fact, since it's in character for Kars to do that, such a thing would make winning a lot easier for Caesar. Kars was also being at range when Joseph was falling with him and held the stone of Aya, a moment where he absolutely was serious. It's true that he could blind him, but Caesar would throw out an attack at the same time, and Kars would try to deflect it.

Litterally the first thing Kars did in a serious match is blind then stealth ohko. He also did use bone blades against Joseph, from his leg even and even hit him, he had to back off because of aja because Joseph was holding it up, Kars couldn't attack without breaking thebstone. Why would Kars deflect it when he can just dodge and kill Caesar? Ignoring the fact he can deflect em easy.

"No he knows about the blade and that it's sharp, nothing else and I wouldn't call it a battle, it's running to a ledge then Joseph forcing Kars to back off because he had the stone. Yes that's true but that's standard assumption. That wouldn't effect the battle."

>He saw it not cutting Stroheim's hand, and then, when he activated it, absolutely tear him apart. I recently reread Part 2, and the fight is definitely longer than that.

Yes and Caesar litterally has no idea why that happened, as far as he's aware it's a sharp blade, that's it. I'm reading part 2 right now dude, I have it opened in another tab double checking shit.

"Litterally anything, bone blade works fine. The bubbles don't pack enough hamon to damage it in the slightest, it took post deep pass Joseph a full powered overdrive with all his hamon to the point after doing so he was completely defenseless and unable to use hamon. Caesar doesn't have that much hamon nor does one bubble."

>Caesar is about equal in Hamon, again deep pass isn't a thing now, and though one bubble wouldn't snap it off, it would probably break the sophisticated light mode chainsaw mechanism. And after that Caesar can take one or two hits from him. And Joseph lost his Hamon cause he was getting tired, not due to that one attack. In fact, I cannot check rn but I think it might have gone a different way.

Exactly equal, I disagree but that's a moot point, if it took all of Joseph's hamon, a random spammable move won't be doing anything to it, ever. If Caesar wants to break or even damage it he's going to have to pour most of his hamon into it, hell at that point Kars could probably just Outlast him while he tires himself out. He was exhausted because that was the last of his hamon an his ultimate move, he was fine, used his ultimate ripple overdrive then was panting, Hell chapter is even called JoJo's ultimate ripple and it was a, in his own words "Ultimate ripple overdrive" then follows it with saying "I can't generate hamon anymore".

 

[Armorchompy]

Once again, Kars wouldn't lead with blind-decoy-stealth, because unlike lisa lisa, who was far more experienced in hamon, and joseph, who killed Esidisi, he has no reason to be that afraid of Caesar, and because he can't use zombies, since they're outside help, and if we were to use outside help then Lisa Lisa and Joseph are about to get in the mansion lol.

Anyway, as for the blades being damaged, simply because Joseph used his strongest move on them, doesn't mean that was needed. At no other point does Hamon ever clash with his blades. I think saying that they would at least be damaged by hirs bubbles is very reasonable, but let's just agree to disagree on this.

Also, you misunderstood me. Kars does use his blades in combat, of course, he doesn't however use the thing where he has suddenly more range, which he did on Stroheim's soldiers and his own zombies. There's also the fact that, if he did that, he'd create a huge gash on the wall, letting light in, which would hurt him seriously even without the Bubble Lens. And there's nothing saying Caesar couldn't dodge it, he still has to swing those blades to do that.

 

[Chariot190]

>Once again, Kars wouldn't lead with blind-decoy-stealth, because unlike lisa lisa, who was far more experienced in hamon, and joseph, who killed Esidisi, he has no reason to be that afraid of Caesar, and because he can't use zombies, since they're outside help, and if we were to use outside help then Lisa Lisa and Joseph are about to get in the mansion lol.

He litterally did exactly what you're saying he wouldnt in the very first actual fight he had. He wasnt afraid of Lisa Lisa or Joseph either, he simply doesnt give a shit and will do whatever it takes to win and only relaxes when he thinks that he's won. He says so himself, he did what he did not because he was afraid but because it was the best option. He knows Caesar is presumably around that of joseph, so moot point. Zombies and the like are a standard of his, it's only really outside help if they actually help him fight (but then again isnt that allowed if the character in question makes the zombies? Other characters have that), it's no different then Dio drinking a random civilian to heal or matches where there are random civillians and yeah, I'm assuming the context for this match is the exact same as the original manga except instead of fighting Wham, he fights kars, if Joseph and lisa Lisa are on their way that's cool, didnt save Caesar in the original either, wont make a difference here. But if you want to say he cant do that for some reason, which seems a bit iffy in my opinion, nothing is stoping him from blinding Caesar, blitzing and stabbing him while he's blinded, he kinda blitz Lisa Lisa, when he flashed his blade. Moved out of the way, found a minion, disguised them, then stealthed ohko while they were distracted, the fact Kars could completely vanish in that instant against Lisa Lisa means that he can do the same with no effort against Caesar.

>Anyway, as for the blades being damaged, simply because Joseph used his strongest move on them, doesn't mean that was needed. At no other point does Hamon ever clash with his blades. I think saying that they would at least be damaged by hirs bubbles is very reasonable, but let's just agree to disagree on this.

Joseph litterally says at one point that if he tried to block the blade, even if he focused all of his hamon into a single point, he likely couldnt defend against it when he saw it the first time. Joseph himself thinks all of his hamon cant stop the bone blade (which if anything kinda confirms that he got a power boost from Caesar's final hamon), the spammable bubble hamon attacks aint doing anything if the character that is equal with Caesar is like yeah all my hamon likely cant do stop it, so average hamon attacks wont do a thing.

>Also, you misunderstood me. Kars does use his blades in combat, of course, he doesn't however use the thing where he has suddenly more range, which he did on Stroheim's soldiers and his own zombies. There's also the fact that, if he did that, he'd create a huge gash on the wall, letting light in, which would hurt him seriously even without the Bubble Lens. And there's nothing saying Caesar couldn't dodge it, he still has to swing those blades to do that.

Here's the thing though, when has he ever needed to do so? He does so when it's optimal, all other times that would be cool Kars had no reason to, didnt want to or was already up close. If caesars gonna play range, Kars would use his own range, also the blade he used on Joseph from his leg was longer then his arms', so moot point, he used it when needed. Uh, do you actually believe Kars would be stupid enough to cut through the wall and let light in? Like come on man, that seems like a bit of a grasp? Kars would smash the wall and let in his weakness? I'm going to make the claim that claim isnt a proper counterpoint, Kars would never do that, and he has more than enough precision to not do that in the first place, and it aint like the room is tiny, it can fit hundreds in it. You're right, he could dodge, but so can Kars, and it aint like Kars would only attack once, especially when Kars has the speed advantage, up close Caesar would have trouble dodging and Kars could blind him and kinda just kill him when he's reeling. Even from afar.

 

[TriforcePower1]

"Soap was first invented in the real world in 2800 BC (Or BCE). This is long after Kars, Wamuu and Esidisi began hybernation"

Wait, didn't Kars say that he remembered that the last civilization he knew had the red stone of Aja was the Roman Empire, or am I making things up? Do we have some statement about how long the pillar men remained in the pillars?

 

[Armorchompy]

Er, anyway, grace has ended, and I think this ratio of votes should be enough to conclude the battle. This can be added, right?

 

[The_Smashor]

@Triforce

Oh. Woops.

 

[Chariot190]

Er, anyway, grace has ended, and I think this ratio of votes should be enough to conclude the battle. This can be added, right?

Not when it was only yesterday that actual arguments for Kars were made when prior it was mostly just lol caesar.