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I agree. This scaling seems solid, uses only facts, no speculation, and fairly paints the picture IMO
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Broly V.S Jiren
- Thread starter Kople700
- Start date
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True and then he went LBOmegas03 said:
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Wasn't Jiren stated to be superior to Beerus while heavily suppressed? I know Magazine scans are only so credible but still.
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Clearly you think everything is complete facts as long as it agrees with you, but he came out of knowhere saying that FP jiren could be greater than beerus which hasnt been proven or even hinted at.BakiHanma18 said:
even when there is clear flaws as long as it supports you it's "facts"?
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we dont even know for sure how much stronger LB jiren is than FP jiren but it clearly isnt nearly as much as some tend to think. heck FP jiren was losing to mui goku, then LB jiren still lost by a good bit. its pretty clear than any boost he gets from LB wouldnt be a big game changer and be the difference between losing and winning against someone like broly, who constantly increased in power and adapts. especially if he was able to quickly close the gap between him and SSJ gogeta and then surpass him by a great deal.
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Not sure, I've heard a few people say that, but I've never seen it for myselfChocomilkAlex said:
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@Ka$aJ1zo A lot times through or before the ToP
-Whis saying that there's a warrior (Jiren) stronger than his GoD, and that GoD is stronger than Beerus. It was just a rumour at the time though.
-Whis at ep 109 says Jiren perhaps even surpassed GoDs and then is dead serious when he confirms the rumours are true, meaning Jiren > Belmod > Beerus. Belmod then practically confirms what Whis said.
-Whis says that UIO3 Goku is approaching (nearing) GoD territory yet Jiren doesn't have at all much trouble with him until almost the end just before Goku masters UI because Goku kept getting close to mastering UI and adapted.
Putting all evidence together, it really points to Jiren being a bit stronger than Beerus. And at his Base.
-Whis saying that there's a warrior (Jiren) stronger than his GoD, and that GoD is stronger than Beerus. It was just a rumour at the time though.
-Whis at ep 109 says Jiren perhaps even surpassed GoDs and then is dead serious when he confirms the rumours are true, meaning Jiren > Belmod > Beerus. Belmod then practically confirms what Whis said.
-Whis says that UIO3 Goku is approaching (nearing) GoD territory yet Jiren doesn't have at all much trouble with him until almost the end just before Goku masters UI because Goku kept getting close to mastering UI and adapted.
Putting all evidence together, it really points to Jiren being a bit stronger than Beerus. And at his Base.
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uh, no. he beat him in an arm wrestling match. not that he was actually more powerful. That was a joke that was made
he never confirms the rumor of surpassing the GoDs. he said that he has "perhaps" surpassed a GoD. THAT rumor was the one that was confirmed. and literally the same thing is a "perhaps" for broly. "perhaps" doesnt get us anywhere. and once again, actual feats > some claims or guesses made by people in the series even if they're a credible source.
Jiren does have trouble, beating someone near GoD territory isnt a big feat when you are in GoD territory,
it doesnt point towards that, it points that he is on the level of GoDs, but theyve been really careful to keep jiren from pointing towards being stronger than beerus.
he never confirms the rumor of surpassing the GoDs. he said that he has "perhaps" surpassed a GoD. THAT rumor was the one that was confirmed. and literally the same thing is a "perhaps" for broly. "perhaps" doesnt get us anywhere. and once again, actual feats > some claims or guesses made by people in the series even if they're a credible source.
Jiren does have trouble, beating someone near GoD territory isnt a big feat when you are in GoD territory,
it doesnt point towards that, it points that he is on the level of GoDs, but theyve been really careful to keep jiren from pointing towards being stronger than beerus.
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Also, being a "better fighter" wouldnt really be the case. Broly adapted insanely quickly, and he even destroyed goku and vegeta in his form before super saiyan, and they're both supposed to be good fighters, (seemingly better than jiren since they both dont just rely on pure power) and even if LB jiren was slightly stronger he'd still lose by broly catching up. You're either massively stronger like SSB gogeta, or he catches up like he did the entire fight. and he catches up very quickly. Since they're both actually comparable i would give it to broly.
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Both accurate statementsKidkinsey said:
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WHAT?! I've been under the impression that it's been FP Broly and LB Jiren this whole time... Jiren takes it with mid diffQuibster said:
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Super Saiyan Broly V.S Limit Breaker Jiren Speed Equalized (Is this even necessary? It's dragonball lmao) Battle takes place in the arena that was used for the universal tournament. Except there are no restrictions on flying or such.Quibster said:
Omg I feel so dumb...
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LB Jiren destroys. SS Broly was stronger than SSB Goku but LB Jiren is on another level I am pretty sure Jiren takes this one
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By SS he meant Super SayianKa$aJ1zo said:
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IMO, the only difference between FP and SSJ is LB Jiren beats SSJ 8/10, whereas LB Jiren beats FP Broly 6/10
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Let's clear up some confusion
For starters
The lore behind SSJ Broly is that he is far too powerful for Goku and Vegeta, and they need fusion to fight against him. This is said in the manga and movie, once Broly goes SSJ, he is far too much for Goku and Vegeta.
Meaning SSJ Broly > 127/128/129 Jiren until FP, but FP Jiren is unknown. Omen is said to be stepping closer into the state of the Gods, meaning Jiren 127/128/129 and Omen Goku are lower then GoD level like Beerus etc.
Frieza in novel thinks Broly > Jiren just as a SSJ, and in the manga, he made Goku and Vegeta team up and require fusion which is something Jiren never pushed them to do.
FP Jiren was still hanging in there with UI Goku, blocking hits and going punch to punch, LB Jiren barely overpowered that same Goku meaning the gap in power between FP and LB Jiren isn't big at all. And UI is said by Whis to be the limit breaking power of the Gods not beyond it and that defeated Jiren.
SSJ to SSJ FP >>>>>> FP TO LB no debate, FP Jiren still hanged in there against UI Goku and barely overpowered that same Goku after powering up to LB, SSJ Broly was at a slight disadvantage against SSJ Gogeta and once he went SSJ FP, he tanked and kicked him across the entire dimension and into the dimensional walls. Broly powers up make Jiren power ups look like nothing
Even IF Jiren had more power in LB, it means nothing to Broly ability to get stronger, doesn't mean he loses to SSJB Gogeta that somehow = to losing to anyone stronger, cause Jiren is trash to Gogeta, and Broly closed gaps like Base Broly vs SSJ Vegeta or Rage Broly vs SSJG Goku or SSJ Broly vs SSJ Gogeta, when Broly powers up, he simply leaves you behind if the gap isn't big enough, even SSJB Gogeta according to the novel raised his power higher in SSJB.
But since Broly is said to be the strongest about a million times already, he is already > Jiren and will beat him 10/10.
And the Moro arc is gonna have UI Goku fight Moro soon, and Moro so far isn't even above Rage Broly in terms of power level alone SSJ or SSJ FP, cause 1 SSJB at full power > Moro (near prime) and Rage Broly was give or take SSJB level. UI Goku Moro Arc is >> UI from TOP arc as Goku in general has gotten a lot more stronger which is confirmed after they fought Broly, meaning if Moro is still not strong enough to beat at least 2 SSJB in terms of power the same way SSJ Broly did and make it look easy, yet somehow manages well against UI Goku, then SSJ Broly > Jiren let alone FP SSJ Broly. UI Goku gave Jiren a hell of a fight in the manga and drained them completely
For starters
The lore behind SSJ Broly is that he is far too powerful for Goku and Vegeta, and they need fusion to fight against him. This is said in the manga and movie, once Broly goes SSJ, he is far too much for Goku and Vegeta.
Meaning SSJ Broly > 127/128/129 Jiren until FP, but FP Jiren is unknown. Omen is said to be stepping closer into the state of the Gods, meaning Jiren 127/128/129 and Omen Goku are lower then GoD level like Beerus etc.
Frieza in novel thinks Broly > Jiren just as a SSJ, and in the manga, he made Goku and Vegeta team up and require fusion which is something Jiren never pushed them to do.
FP Jiren was still hanging in there with UI Goku, blocking hits and going punch to punch, LB Jiren barely overpowered that same Goku meaning the gap in power between FP and LB Jiren isn't big at all. And UI is said by Whis to be the limit breaking power of the Gods not beyond it and that defeated Jiren.
SSJ to SSJ FP >>>>>> FP TO LB no debate, FP Jiren still hanged in there against UI Goku and barely overpowered that same Goku after powering up to LB, SSJ Broly was at a slight disadvantage against SSJ Gogeta and once he went SSJ FP, he tanked and kicked him across the entire dimension and into the dimensional walls. Broly powers up make Jiren power ups look like nothing
Even IF Jiren had more power in LB, it means nothing to Broly ability to get stronger, doesn't mean he loses to SSJB Gogeta that somehow = to losing to anyone stronger, cause Jiren is trash to Gogeta, and Broly closed gaps like Base Broly vs SSJ Vegeta or Rage Broly vs SSJG Goku or SSJ Broly vs SSJ Gogeta, when Broly powers up, he simply leaves you behind if the gap isn't big enough, even SSJB Gogeta according to the novel raised his power higher in SSJB.
But since Broly is said to be the strongest about a million times already, he is already > Jiren and will beat him 10/10.
And the Moro arc is gonna have UI Goku fight Moro soon, and Moro so far isn't even above Rage Broly in terms of power level alone SSJ or SSJ FP, cause 1 SSJB at full power > Moro (near prime) and Rage Broly was give or take SSJB level. UI Goku Moro Arc is >> UI from TOP arc as Goku in general has gotten a lot more stronger which is confirmed after they fought Broly, meaning if Moro is still not strong enough to beat at least 2 SSJB in terms of power the same way SSJ Broly did and make it look easy, yet somehow manages well against UI Goku, then SSJ Broly > Jiren let alone FP SSJ Broly. UI Goku gave Jiren a hell of a fight in the manga and drained them completely
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True
Not true, Jiren was stated even before reaching FP to surpass the GoDs
I'd like a source for that
Go back and read what's already been posted. MUI slaps FP Jiren, but LB Jiren had the upper hand until until he enraged Goku
Okay, but no. Without proof, that's just headcanon.
As we've already discussed, the gap in power between LB Jiren and FP Broly May be to great for him to RE fast enough.
Source
Speculation and headcanon
Not true, Jiren was stated even before reaching FP to surpass the GoDs
I'd like a source for that
Go back and read what's already been posted. MUI slaps FP Jiren, but LB Jiren had the upper hand until until he enraged Goku
Okay, but no. Without proof, that's just headcanon.
As we've already discussed, the gap in power between LB Jiren and FP Broly May be to great for him to RE fast enough.
Source
Speculation and headcanon
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2. Nope, he was stated as the mortal who surpassed his god, the only time he was ever compared to surpassing was "perhaps even greater" which is leaving the idea open that he could be able to surpass the gods, but that still wouldnt be as credible as being "probably stronger" than someone when youve fought both. They werent saying he surpassed belmod without needing to put effort. Many people think jiren destroys belmod, but that isnt the case, he's able to surpass him at his best, it isnt a complete sweep.
3. source? "In novel" "in manga" theres your source, he just gave them to you
4.Not even close, FP jiren was going blow for blow with UIO3 goku, then managed to win in the end by reading his moves, MUI supressed destroyed FP jiren, then LB jiren still gets destroyed. this "enraged MUI" nonsense makes no sense because its still MUI, just him using more power. Enraged isnt the same as breaking your limits, it just means you arent surpressed as much. Enraged jiren fought 17 because 17 said something that made jiren upset. putting enraged doesnt really change much. MUI destroyed LB jiren eitherway. and this is mostly pointless if we dont have anything to actually compare MUI to other than probably surpassing beerus, same as broly, which would put both of them about jiren. we can't flat out say it's stronger than beerus it wasnt directly stated, so then it would be headcannon right?
5. what proof? thats not headcannon, thats like saying the gap between Super buu and majin buu being more than the gap between majin buu and kid buu is headcannon just because there is no direct numbers for it. LB jiren didnt gain nearly the boost that broly did. Destroying SSB goku and vegeta to surpassing SSJ gogeta.
6. As we've discussed? not even close, we've discussed LB jiren vs FP broly being near the same strength, "near" the same strength meaning FP broly would catch up and start winning.
3. source? "In novel" "in manga" theres your source, he just gave them to you
4.Not even close, FP jiren was going blow for blow with UIO3 goku, then managed to win in the end by reading his moves, MUI supressed destroyed FP jiren, then LB jiren still gets destroyed. this "enraged MUI" nonsense makes no sense because its still MUI, just him using more power. Enraged isnt the same as breaking your limits, it just means you arent surpressed as much. Enraged jiren fought 17 because 17 said something that made jiren upset. putting enraged doesnt really change much. MUI destroyed LB jiren eitherway. and this is mostly pointless if we dont have anything to actually compare MUI to other than probably surpassing beerus, same as broly, which would put both of them about jiren. we can't flat out say it's stronger than beerus it wasnt directly stated, so then it would be headcannon right?
5. what proof? thats not headcannon, thats like saying the gap between Super buu and majin buu being more than the gap between majin buu and kid buu is headcannon just because there is no direct numbers for it. LB jiren didnt gain nearly the boost that broly did. Destroying SSB goku and vegeta to surpassing SSJ gogeta.
6. As we've discussed? not even close, we've discussed LB jiren vs FP broly being near the same strength, "near" the same strength meaning FP broly would catch up and start winning.
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True
Not true, Jiren was stated even before reaching FP to surpass the GoDs
I'd like a source for that
Go back and read what's already been posted. MUI slaps FP Jiren, but LB Jiren had the upper hand until until he enraged Goku
Okay, but no. Without proof, that's just headcanon.
As we've already discussed, the gap in power between LB Jiren and FP Broly May be to great for him to RE fast enough.
Source
Speculation and headcanon
No
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKA6xOlkKWM
Jiren is LIKE a GoD, prehaps higher and stronger then Belmod. He was never stated to surpasses the GoDs, only his own. Even the manga says his own
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11130/111303322/6353877-271.png
Actually UI just overpowers Jiren after a good scuffle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-xhYEPZBT8
FP Jiren still goes toe to toe, punch to punch and blocks Goku hits, and still despite getting hit carrying on. And LB Jiren barely overpowered this same Goku after a good scuffle.
UI according to Whis is the limit breaking power of the gods not beyond it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AiG7CUTTDs&t=80s
So Jiren didn't surpass the GoDs when he lost to the power of the Gods.
The gap betwen LB and Broly isn't even there at all, cause Broly is most likely already stronger then him. Even if there was a gap, fight happens no different then Vegeta SSJ vs Base Broly. Jiren isn't Gogeta nor is he close
All guides, Novel, Trailers, Interview and World premier saying Broly is the strongest.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ds7LWlWXQAAtNO2.jpg
"The strongest enemy invades Earth!"
https://img.fireden.net/a/image/1535/46/1535460620489.jpg
The "strongest enemy in history" appears in the first DBS movie—Broly shakes the world!!
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DjrkzUKX0AEP3wN?format=jpg&name=small
The Saikyo Jump editorial office tells readers: "Frankly, the enemy Goku and co. are up against in this movie is the strongest. Those who trust Goku will win may lose confidence, so be careful." They also ask: "Destructive power greater than a God of Destruction?!"
https://i.imgur.com/HepZAIl.jpg
"rumored to be the strongest"
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DuQSBAiV4AAEajA?format=jpg&name=large
"I've never seen such an amazing opponent... S-so strong! Beaten up by the strongest ever, Broly."
2 Trailers saying Broly is the strongest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2HqDaFrTKc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tejttvOCNQs
World premier saying Broly is the strongest 3 times in a row in front of the director and all the voice actors
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUN-M_2n05A
Toyotaro thinks Broly is the strongest
https://i.imgur.com/eQPSYcE.jpg
And Novel has Broly the strongest
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DusJ3H0VsAAq1LE.jpg
"Gah... magnificent... what magnificent power!" (Frieza) It was without a doubt, no being that could beat this Broly existed. It was made clear after the beat down he had just received. To Frieza, he represented a powerful weapon."
Don't worry, Moro arc UI Goku is gonna fail you guys big time. By you guys logic, he should be >>> Beerus by now so we will see how that goes down
2 Guides also say Jiren is only GoD level
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DYmFUjXXUAIcdtj?format=jpg&name=900x900
"The strongest U11 warrior. His power is said to even match that of a God of Destruction!"
http://www.toei-anim.co.jp/tv/dragon_s/chara/chapter4/no11.html
Not true, Jiren was stated even before reaching FP to surpass the GoDs
I'd like a source for that
Go back and read what's already been posted. MUI slaps FP Jiren, but LB Jiren had the upper hand until until he enraged Goku
Okay, but no. Without proof, that's just headcanon.
As we've already discussed, the gap in power between LB Jiren and FP Broly May be to great for him to RE fast enough.
Source
Speculation and headcanon
No
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKA6xOlkKWM
Jiren is LIKE a GoD, prehaps higher and stronger then Belmod. He was never stated to surpasses the GoDs, only his own. Even the manga says his own
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11130/111303322/6353877-271.png
Actually UI just overpowers Jiren after a good scuffle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-xhYEPZBT8
FP Jiren still goes toe to toe, punch to punch and blocks Goku hits, and still despite getting hit carrying on. And LB Jiren barely overpowered this same Goku after a good scuffle.
UI according to Whis is the limit breaking power of the gods not beyond it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AiG7CUTTDs&t=80s
So Jiren didn't surpass the GoDs when he lost to the power of the Gods.
The gap betwen LB and Broly isn't even there at all, cause Broly is most likely already stronger then him. Even if there was a gap, fight happens no different then Vegeta SSJ vs Base Broly. Jiren isn't Gogeta nor is he close
All guides, Novel, Trailers, Interview and World premier saying Broly is the strongest.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ds7LWlWXQAAtNO2.jpg
"The strongest enemy invades Earth!"
https://img.fireden.net/a/image/1535/46/1535460620489.jpg
The "strongest enemy in history" appears in the first DBS movie—Broly shakes the world!!
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DjrkzUKX0AEP3wN?format=jpg&name=small
The Saikyo Jump editorial office tells readers: "Frankly, the enemy Goku and co. are up against in this movie is the strongest. Those who trust Goku will win may lose confidence, so be careful." They also ask: "Destructive power greater than a God of Destruction?!"
https://i.imgur.com/HepZAIl.jpg
"rumored to be the strongest"
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DuQSBAiV4AAEajA?format=jpg&name=large
"I've never seen such an amazing opponent... S-so strong! Beaten up by the strongest ever, Broly."
2 Trailers saying Broly is the strongest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2HqDaFrTKc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tejttvOCNQs
World premier saying Broly is the strongest 3 times in a row in front of the director and all the voice actors
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUN-M_2n05A
Toyotaro thinks Broly is the strongest
https://i.imgur.com/eQPSYcE.jpg
And Novel has Broly the strongest
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DusJ3H0VsAAq1LE.jpg
"Gah... magnificent... what magnificent power!" (Frieza) It was without a doubt, no being that could beat this Broly existed. It was made clear after the beat down he had just received. To Frieza, he represented a powerful weapon."
Don't worry, Moro arc UI Goku is gonna fail you guys big time. By you guys logic, he should be >>> Beerus by now so we will see how that goes down
2 Guides also say Jiren is only GoD level
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DYmFUjXXUAIcdtj?format=jpg&name=900x900
"The strongest U11 warrior. His power is said to even match that of a God of Destruction!"
http://www.toei-anim.co.jp/tv/dragon_s/chara/chapter4/no11.html
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The exact quote is "I daresay... like a God of Destruction. He is one who has reached that state. Perhaps even surpassed it. 'There is a universe where lives a mortal even a God of Destruction can't defeat.' Looks like the rumors were true." While its implied that Jiren can beat Belmod, it's also expressly stated that even not a Full Power, he's on the level of the GoDs, perhaps even stronger.
Full Power Jiren was getting dominated to the point that Goku didn't even clench his teeth once. MUI is leagues above FP Jiren, nobody's arguing that
Whis's statement about the "limit-breaking Godly power" is not only in direct contrast with his earlier statement that a casual base Jiren was trying, but the term "Godly" is used very loosely throughout Super (To say MUI is only GoD level just because it was described as "godly" is to say SSG and SSGSS are also GoD level because they are literally described as godly transformations)
This is just straight up intellectual dishonesty. In this thread alone there have been links to anywhere between 5-20 articles saying Jiren is the strongest, and if Broly is only "maybe stronger than Beerus", when Jiren is casually comparable to the GoDs in general, then Jiren being stronger is more consistent with the actual showings
That bit about the Moro arc is still headcanon
Full Power Jiren was getting dominated to the point that Goku didn't even clench his teeth once. MUI is leagues above FP Jiren, nobody's arguing that
Whis's statement about the "limit-breaking Godly power" is not only in direct contrast with his earlier statement that a casual base Jiren was trying, but the term "Godly" is used very loosely throughout Super (To say MUI is only GoD level just because it was described as "godly" is to say SSG and SSGSS are also GoD level because they are literally described as godly transformations)
This is just straight up intellectual dishonesty. In this thread alone there have been links to anywhere between 5-20 articles saying Jiren is the strongest, and if Broly is only "maybe stronger than Beerus", when Jiren is casually comparable to the GoDs in general, then Jiren being stronger is more consistent with the actual showings
That bit about the Moro arc is still headcanon
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> 5-20 articles saying Jiren is the strongest
Show don't tell.
Show don't tell.
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Excuse me, 5-20 was too big, it actually ended up being 4 different links
Here's the thread: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3282740?useskin=oasis#
Have fun
Here's the thread: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3282740?useskin=oasis#
Have fun
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These arguments seemed pretty solid as well
https://anime.stackexchange.com/questions/50116/who-is-stronger-jiren-or-broly
https://anime.stackexchange.com/questions/50116/who-is-stronger-jiren-or-broly
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