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Broly V.S Jiren

Bro, I don't even know how many votes there ARE, let alone who's voted for who...

My logic behind that is if Base Jiren>=an average GoD, it's pretty insane to think that LB Jiren isn't stronger than Beerus, a higher end GoD, even putting aside that Belmod is apparently physically stronger than Beerus from their arm wrestle
 
The problem is we don't know how Beerus compare to Belmod and in the manga it's not even Belmod who win the arm wrestling so that info is iffy at best.

This should be closed tbh.
 
base jiren isnt>=an average GoD. FP jiren surpassed belmod. "surpassed" meaning he isnt massively stronger than him. LB jiren got slightly stronger. LB jiren and beerus would seem pretty similar in power especially if beerus was able to take on every GoD and win with only quitela remaining before time was called. Every GoD including belmod.


it should be pretty obvious belmod isnt actually more powerful than beerus otherwise it would be common knowledge that beerus is a lot weaker than he seems. And they wouldnt be able to hide who is actually the weakest or strongest between beerus Jiren and broly like theyve been doing.
 
Oh thank God, I thought I was being melodramatic every time I thought to myself "Maybe we should just go incon for now, as this isn't really going anywhere". I agree, this should be closed
 
Hey folks, I just suddenly realized something. Neither Jiren nor Broly is stronger than Beerus. The scene where Whis admitted that no God of Destruction can beat Jiren was a mistranslation in the sub. Whis only stated that Jiren is stronger than Belmod, Belmod only beat Beerus in a arm wrestling not in an actual fight. The magazine that had Beerus stating Goku is maybe stronger than him is just a promotion advertisement, because the later magazine had this retconned for the Broly film where they had stated Goku coming close to level of God of Destruction. But either way, Jiren still slaps Broly in a fight.
 
OK we have to think logical here. We have some sort of statements (magazine, anime) that Jiren is GoD level or above. This means some statements puts Jiren above Beerus. It's a simple as that.

Code: 
And let's not forget we have statements (anime and Manga) that Jiren is stronger than at least 1 or 2 GoD's. With Broly we have a 'probably'.
Now the real question is. Do we have ani prove or statements that puts Beerus above Jiren?

If not then we pretty much have to accept Jiren > Beers. Don't bring the last man in the ring (all gods fighting) argument.
 
BakiHanma18 said:
The exact quote is "I daresay... like a God of Destruction. He is one who has reached that state. Perhaps even surpassed it. 'There is a universe where lives a mortal even a God of Destruction can't defeat.' Looks like the rumors were true." While its implied that Jiren can beat Belmod, it's also expressly stated that even not a Full Power, he's on the level of the GoDs, perhaps even stronger.
Full Power Jiren was getting dominated to the point that Goku didn't even clench his teeth once. MUI is leagues above FP Jiren, nobody's arguing that

Whis's statement about the "limit-breaking Godly power" is not only in direct contrast with his earlier statement that a casual base Jiren was trying, but the term "Godly" is used very loosely throughout Super (To say MUI is only GoD level just because it was described as "godly" is to say SSG and SSGSS are also GoD level because they are literally described as godly transformations)

This is just straight up intellectual dishonesty. In this thread alone there have been links to anywhere between 5-20 articles saying Jiren is the strongest, and if Broly is only "maybe stronger than Beerus", when Jiren is casually comparable to the GoDs in general, then Jiren being stronger is more consistent with the actual showings

That bit about the Moro arc is still headcanon
Click to expand...
Doesn't matter whether Jiren is at FP or not, cause MUI is said to be the power of the Gods and that still beat Jiren

Not even close, Goku facial expressions are always calm in UI for starters, and second, Jiren holds his own against MUI in the start of episode 130, punch to punch, blocks his hits and trying to return some of his own, he is in no way getting dominated, this isn't SSJ FP Broly vs SSJ Gogeta or SSj2 Gohan vs Cell. And third, Goku is actuially trying as shown right here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-xhYEPZBT8

2:37 when Jiren and Goku go punch to punch, Goku is clenching his teeth, 2:10 to 2:12 Goku clearly clenches his teeth. Then Jiren went LB and barely overpowered that same Goku, then Goku increases his speed and edges out Jiren.

SSJG and SSJB are said to be on that power, Omen is said to be an attempt to approach to state of the Gods and UI is the power of the Gods. If it was higher then it would be stated to be so.

Jiren was said to be the strongest before Broly came along, now Broly came along and is now called the strongest, basic DB logic as they have been doing this for ages

It's head canon but just remember, if UI is above Beerus in TOP, then UI in the Moro arc should be >>>> Beerus now yet I have this sneaking belief that it's still weaker then Beerus until that stupid long waited overrated rematch happens.

Also we need to bring something up here

If Broly is probably stronger then Beerus, then that means even with UI, Beerus will probably lose to Broly, where UI Goku edges out Jiren in the anime and loses in the manga after Jiren is drained out
 
I'd say lets wait until the Moro arc finishes cause that's going to clear up a lot of things

I said this before, by the logic of people here and on youtube, basically everywhere, UI Goku >>> Beerus cause TOP Goku > Beerus and after the Broly saga, Goku and Vegeta are stated to be stronger then ever.

Right now, it's said that 1 SSJB at FP is enough for Moro but that was before his prime. Now he is back at his prime, we will see how Moro handles UI Goku and Vegeta new technique, plus see how he ranks in comparison to Beerus along with UI Goku

Apparently UI Goku should punch Moro once and kill him
 
Pannaliciour said:
OK we have to think logical here. We have some sort of statements (magazine, anime) that Jiren is GoD level or above. This means some statements puts Jiren above Beerus. It's a simple as that. And let's not forget we have statements (anime and Manga) that Jiren is stronger than at least 1 or 2 GoD's. With Broly we have a 'probably'.
Now the real question is. Do we have ani prove or statements that puts Beerus above Jiren?

If not then we pretty much have to accept Jiren > Beers. Don't bring the last man in the ring (all gods fighting) argument.
Click to expand...
I mean, we would have to assume out of nowhere that beerus is the weakest god for that to actually be accurate which he isnt. We dont have to accept Jiren > Beerus with no actual evidence, "the power of the gods" is just god level which broly is confirmed to be. Beerus was hinted at multiple times at being one of the stronger GoDs.

dont credit magazines, especially if you're gonna say dont bring the gods fighting arguement which is far more credible than some author's opinion trying to hype everyone. You clearly dont know what is an actual source and what isnt.

The only GoD jiren is confirmed to be stronger than is belmod, which would still be "power of the GoDs" while being weaker than beerus.
 
Nice, something that makes sense instead of going "oh i like this character more so its either he wins or it's inconclusive"

the very simple fact that these two are on comparable terms, and that broly constantly gets stronger at an very fast rate would indicate that he would win.
 
This feels like it isnt going anywhere because people are saying things that dont support your claim. All the actual evidence is stacking up for broly to win.
 
I mean, we would have to assume out of nowhere that beerus is the weakest god for that to actually be accurate which he isnt. We dont have to accept Jiren > Beerus with no actual evidence, "the power of the gods" is just god level which broly is confirmed to be. Beerus was hinted at multiple times at being one of the stronger GoDs.

dont credit magazines, especially if you're gonna say dont bring the gods fighting arguement which is far more credible than some author's opinion trying to hype everyone. You clearly dont know what is an actual source and what isnt.

The only GoD jiren is confirmed to be stronger than is belmod, which would still be "power of the GoDs" while being weaker than beerus.

You are doing it again. Give me evidence that Beerus is stronger than Jiren. Give me something, Canon or non Canon. Beerus is one of the strongest GoD's, does not mean he is stronger then Belmouth and Jiren. In fact it was hinted that Belmouth is stronger then Beerus and so Jiren was also stronger then Beerus. Again give me something (statement, magazines) that Beerus is stronger then Beerus.
 
The whole argument around Jiren stand on that one line from Whiss where he said "Perhaps even stronger"

The problem is, the statement really doesn't stack up. Casual Jiren is perhaps stronger than all GoDs but MUI Goku is just within their domain? Not to mention UI was never, not even once, compared to Beerus or stated to be "Beyond" the GoDs in the anime.

This is also stupid narrtive wise because Beerus was Goku's goal for such a long time and some people believe the anime just glossed over that without comparing them even once!

Beerus is still a wild card as long he's used as measuring stick to the latest antagonist. He's likely still stronger than either Jiren or Broly.
 
It wouldn't surprise me if he was stronger then Jiren, but Broly is a huge deal and has way too much hype behind him. The direct comparisons too Beerus gave Broly insane plot protection unlike Jiren who is > Belmod who they can just push to be a weak GoD.

It took a fusion to beat him unlike Jiren who needed UI Goku, unless someone makes a direct comparison to Broly or fights Goku and Vegeta fused, Broly is gonna be protected big time, and fighting a fused character is extremely rare unlike UI which will become normal soon enough. Plus they gave Beerus UI so he isn't excatly struggling here.


But this is the truth IMO, after the Moro arc, the rematch needs to happen and be done with it. Goku should learn to use UI at will but hasn't mastered it, Vegeta should get something to puts him on similar levels, both there power should be GoD level at this point, if Goku and Vegeta were near a GoD in the Broly movie, after Broly and Moro, being GoD is a must.
 
Oh yeah calling it now


Vegeta is gonna learn to see the future or get some type of future sight. He is gonna have something that counters or rivals UI
 
ZERO7772 said:
The whole argument around Jiren stand on that one line from Whiss where he said "Perhaps even stronger"

The problem is, the statement really doesn't stack up. Casual Jiren is perhaps stronger than all GoDs but MUI Goku is just within their domain? Not to mention UI was never, not even once, compared to Beerus or stated to be "Beyond" the GoDs in the anime.

This is also stupid narrtive wise because Beerus was Goku's goal for such a long time and some people believe the anime just glossed over that without comparing them even once!

Beerus is still a wild card as long he's used as measuring stick to the latest antagonist. He's likely still stronger than either Jiren or Broly.
Click to expand...
That line from Whis, doesn't stack up!? Lol if we start ignoring lines then what's the point of evidence.

Whis confirmed multiple times that Beerus has the not completed version of UI (seen in the Manga when he dodge and then failed after a while. Then Whis stated something like if you have the completed or mastered UI (that Goku had in the fight against Jiren, silver hair) you can take on any enemy (including Beerus). That was heavily implied by Whis just after Vegeta lost to Beerus.

There is nothing about Belmouth being weaker or stronger then Beerus in the Manga (only assumptions). We only have Jiren > Belmouth. Being the last man standing doesn't mean shit because by that logic android 17 is the strongest?
 
Beerus doesn't have to complete UI to be stronger than Goku tho? His base is vastly superior to Goku's strongest form even at 1% of his power.

Jiren slapped UI Goku few times and he doesn't have that abillty.
 
I'll try to answer each of these briefly, as our back and forth is getting a bit big

That directly contrasts suppressed Jiren being possibly stronger than GoD level I'll link you some scenes later where Goku is trying in MUI, and he grits his teeth quite often, and he was only holding his own until MUI got enraged (Jiren attacking Goku's bois)

But for the most part, until LB, he can clash Jiren fairly calmly

I'm confused, are you saying that God is comparable to MUI, because I don't know about that one chief

Fair enough, but tbf, they also hype up each new threat (Kid Buu was described as being the most dangerous, but he's weaker than Buuhan), so it's more so about actual in-show statements than promotional material

If that's the case, then I'll gladly say "Well if Broly is potentially stronger than Beerus, and Jiren's not even close to Beerus, or at most, the same level as Beerus, Broly should win"

I don't know about that. Without Broly's RPL, I think that the gap between Beerus and Broly, since there is a question on whether or not Broly is actually stronger, is small enough that auto dodge will give Beerus the advantage. Now, considering Broly's RPL, that's a rabbit hole I'm not prepared for

Sorry if I've been coming off as a little harsh (I read back through some of my comments, and they read back to me as pretty uncouth), hope there's no ill will
 
Also, I'd like to comment on the whole "Beerus is stronger than Belmod" thing (it's been considered derailing, so I won't be debating it), but just note that 1) It was a battle royale, so the winner(s) isn't necessarily the strongest, or else you'd have to apply the same logic to the TOP, in which 17 is stronger than Jiren, Goku, Frieza, and Vegeta.

Another thing to note is that Belmod actually faked being knocked out, and he hadn't taken any damage throughout the entire ordeal
 
ZERO7772 said:
Beerus doesn't have to complete UI to be stronger than Goku tho? His base is vastly superior to Goku's strongest form even at 1% of his power.

Jiren slapped UI Goku few times and he doesn't have that abillty.
Click to expand...
Thats why Jiren is stronger then Beerus imo. He doesn't have to rely on ultra instinct. That's the irony of the final battle between Goku and jiren. Jiren is the unstoppable force, he only rely on true strength. Goku's only anwser was ultra instinct. You have to be pretty strong if people consider you stronger than your GoD just with true strength. Look at what Whis said about Jiren.

https://imggmi.com/full/2019/9/16/dc9643788fd267bd4682da2cf93ac598-full.jpg.html

Jiren was going one on one against Ultra Instinct. You really think Beerus could do that. Beerus could not play around against mssjb Vegeta where heavenly suppressed Jiren was handling Hit and Mssjb Goku at the same time.
 
BakiHanma18 said:
Also, I'd like to comment on the whole "Beerus is stronger than Belmod" thing (it's been considered derailing, so I won't be debating it), but just note that 1) It was a battle royale, so the winner(s) isn't necessarily the strongest, or else you'd have to apply the same logic to the TOP, in which 17 is stronger than Jiren, Goku, Frieza, and Vegeta.
Another thing to note is that Belmod actually faked being knocked out, and he hadn't taken any damage throughout the entire ordeal
Click to expand...
Not really because it wasnt so much a battle royale, it was everyone vs beerus. Which would still place him as one of the stronger GoDs. besides belmod being stronger than beerus would completely ruin beerus' character. Its clear they intend for him to be stronger otherwise he would just be old news. Sometimes you have to use common sense.
 
Pannaliciour said:
ZERO7772 said:
Beerus doesn't have to complete UI to be stronger than Goku tho? His base is vastly superior to Goku's strongest form even at 1% of his power.

Jiren slapped UI Goku few times and he doesn't have that abillty.
Click to expand...
Thats why Jiren is stronger then Beerus imo. He doesn't have to rely on ultra instinct. That's the irony of the final battle between Goku and jiren. Jiren is the unstoppable force, he only rely on true strength. Goku's only anwser was ultra instinct. You have to be pretty strong if people consider you stronger than your GoD just with true strength. Look at what Whis said about Jiren.

https://imggmi.com/full/2019/9/16/dc9643788fd267bd4682da2cf93ac598-full.jpg.html

Jiren was going one on one against Ultra Instinct. You really think Beerus could do that. Beerus could not play around against mssjb Vegeta where heavenly suppressed Jiren was handling Hit and Mssjb Goku at the same time.
Click to expand...
Depends how supressed Beerus and Jiren are in comparison to each other. By your logic, Moro arc UI Goku will be >>> Beerus
 
Pannaliciour said:
ZERO7772 said:
Beerus doesn't have to complete UI to be stronger than Goku tho? His base is vastly superior to Goku's strongest form even at 1% of his power.

Jiren slapped UI Goku few times and he doesn't have that abillty.
Click to expand...
Thats why Jiren is stronger then Beerus imo. He doesn't have to rely on ultra instinct. That's the irony of the final battle between Goku and jiren. Jiren is the unstoppable force, he only rely on true strength. Goku's only anwser was ultra instinct. You have to be pretty strong if people consider you stronger than your GoD just with true strength. Look at what Whis said about Jiren.

https://imggmi.com/full/2019/9/16/dc9643788fd267bd4682da2cf93ac598-full.jpg.html

Jiren was going one on one against Ultra Instinct. You really think Beerus could do that. Beerus could not play around against mssjb Vegeta where heavenly suppressed Jiren was handling Hit and Mssjb Goku at the same time.
Click to expand...
You're downplaying beerus so much, with no actual evidence other than you feel like he could ot couldnt. Beerus doesnt have to rely on ultra instinct, we havent even been seeing him use it in his fight, we just know he has it. Most of these characters such as broly and jiren and MUI are being compared to beerus WITHOUT ultra instinct. thats where the actual debate on how strong he is, is about. So anywhere we put him, add ultra instinct and he's much stronger.
 
bKa$aJ1zo said:
Pannaliciour said:
ZERO7772 said:
Beerus doesn't have to complete UI to be stronger than Goku tho? His base is vastly superior to Goku's strongest form even at 1% of his power.

Jiren slapped UI Goku few times and he doesn't have that abillty.
Click to expand...
Thats why Jiren is stronger then Beerus imo. He doesn't have to rely on ultra instinct. That's the irony of the final battle between Goku and jiren. Jiren is the unstoppable force, he only rely on true strength. Goku's only anwser was ultra instinct. You have to be pretty strong if people consider you stronger than your GoD just with true strength. Look at what Whis said about Jiren.
https://imggmi.com/full/2019/9/16/dc9643788fd267bd4682da2cf93ac598-full.jpg.html

Jiren was going one on one against Ultra Instinct. You really think Beerus could do that. Beerus could not play around against mssjb Vegeta where heavenly suppressed Jiren was handling Hit and Mssjb Goku at the same time.
Click to expand...
You're downplaying beerus so much, with no actual evidence other than you feel like he could ot couldnt. Beerus doesnt have to rely on ultra instinct, we havent even been seeing him use it in his fight, we just know he has it. Most of these characters such as broly and jiren and MUI are being compared to beerus WITHOUT ultra instinct. thats where the actual debate on how strong he is, is about. So anywhere we put him, add ultra instinct and he's much stronger.
Click to expand...
Broly actually should be scaled to Beerus entirely cause Goku saw him use UI against the other destroyers, unlike Jiren or UI who don't have any direct scaling quotes to measure
 
It's a pointless discussion (Jiren vs Beerus). We have statements and magazines that puts Jiren > Beerus. We have nothing about Beerus > Jiren. So why again is Beerus stronger then Jiren? Until proven otherwise, Jiren is stronger.
 
Mr John West said:
Broly actually should be scaled to Beerus entirely cause Goku saw him use UI against the other destroyers, unlike Jiren or UI who don't have any direct scaling quotes to measure
Click to expand...
either way, broly is being scaled to Beerus' actual power. the UI is added on.
 
Pannaliciour said:
It's a pointless discussion (Jiren vs Beerus). We have statements and magazines that puts Jiren > Beerus. We have nothing about Beerus > Jiren. So why again is Beerus stronger then Jiren? Until proven otherwise, Jiren is stronger.
Click to expand...
no, we dont have statements, and magazines arent credible. its never proven that Jiren is stronger. if Jiren isnt stronger than beerus he definitely isnt stronger than broly.
 
this is still going on? this should just be outright inconclusive. Jiren and broly are likely stronger than beerus, and thats all we have as of now. if i were to give an edge to each fighter in an area, it would be fighting skills for jiren and raw power for broly. but really,
 
Is this ever going to end or not and this is LB Jiren in character he will kill broly without wasting time hence not giving Broly to overcome Jiren
 
Broly has nothing to adapt to because he has more raw power than Jiren in mu opinion.

Anyway this should be closed.
 
I am pretty sure the OP is just referring to the 2 characters at their peak. Otherwise this unfair match.
 
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