Broly (DBS) vs Jiren

[MeleeniumRXJ]

At some point, this has to be done so let's get to it. Both Low 2-C versions. Fight takes place on random planet. Both are in character, and Broly is not restrained by the neck band. Fight is to the death. No BFR.


vs

 

[WIll_Aureolin]

Broly is pushed to be the strongest non-fused fighter for Universe 7 and even Gogeta had to go Super Saiyan Blue to combat Broly's strength. Since Broly even broke several dimensions while fighting Gogeta, I place my vote on Broly.

 

[GoddessOfWinterr-]

Yea Jiren wins with mid difficulty. "Broken several dimensions fighting broly." Except that is unquantifiable. That anilaza was punching so hard he was able to bend space or some shit. You could use that as an argument as to why he is the strongest, but it's unquantifiable.

At most I say broly is stronger than suppressed Jiren, definitely not the one that went toe to toe with mastered ultra instinct. That would be a mismatch.

Also...The fact that broly was a maybe on being stronger than Beerus is huge. Jiren at super suppressed levels had hype like "maybe he surpassed a god of destruction..." that's not accounting for the multiple times he "went full power" and had that cool aura, and let's not talk about how he was able to actually land blows on mastered ultra instinct goku which is a pretty big deal. Gogeta strength is impressive, but nothing says it's anywhere near ultra instinct.

Maybe stronger than Beerus, but Jiren was compared when he glared away a spirit bomb. I think broly is around...Idk, definitely above suppressed Jiren. Anyone saying he is above full power or limit breaking Jiren is giving him way too much credit considering he never actually fought ultra instinct. The only thing that can be said is

"It's post TOP." And then saying them being above mastered ultra instinct post TOP is a wisecrack and a bad attempt to put broly above everyone else. Also no one mention Toppo, he would lose to Kefla. There is a reason MUI wasn't in the movie

 

[LightinAnt]

Except that Jiren was stronger than Beerus was never stated once and never once has it been stated that Beerus has been surpassed in Super, that was only one statement in one promo magazine giving a "maybe". If we take promo material in account then Broly shitstomps Jiren low dif because he is the strongest enemy yet and his power grows the more he fights. If we take it just from the fight then Broly pushing a post Top Fused character to Blue and taking hits from him then he still murders Jiren since Fusion is no joke and yes Gogeta Blue is above MUI no question, evidence being that Kefla is stronger than Omen Goku, UI isn't that humongus of a power boost

 

[GoddessOfWinterr-]

God of destruction is a basis for strength. Let's not hype Beerus to be the strongest god of destruction with no evidence other than him being a cool character.

God of destruction means god of destruction. Only not including the noob named Toppo. In the manga Belmod is one of the More impressive lot so there is that. Jiren was hyped above of destruction while being very suppressed. Kinda speaks for himself. Add that to the fact he used more power multiple times beyond.

Ultra instinct is a boost in strength, it shouldn't be but it is. Logically goku wouldn't even have the ability to one shot Kefla if that were the case. Ultra instinct boosts your speed, reactions, and overall power level. How else can you match Jiren blow for blow when he is all about strength.

You are saying gogeta is above mastered ultra instinct? Because fusion is no joke? Ultra instinct also is no joke, it's kind why it's so important in the series. It's supposed to be the apex. Gods of destruction being shook at an incomplete god of destruction says enough.

Beerus being shook when all Jiren did was flex his ki says enough. The only reason ppl will argue is "post TOP." Which is headcanon since we don't know how much they improved since then. Especially power level wise.

Gogeta blue would be above MUI, if Gogeta blue used MUI. Or it was like far in the future to where multiple fights and Z boosts have happened

 

[LightinAnt]

No if Goku used Beerus as a measuring stick for strength instead of Jiren, that means that Beerus is more powerful than Jiren. Broly is the most powerful villain up to date, its been stated several times, saying that "B-But Jiren fought against UI" is not an argument since the new form is always outclassed by a fusion afterwards, SS3 Goku with Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan with Super Vegito, Blue Kaioken Goku with Vegito etc.

 

[GoddessOfWinterr-]

This man just said beerus is above Jiren.

 

[GoddessOfWinterr-]

"Broly is the most powerful villain to date, and it has been stated several times." FUnny thing is I just seen the movie and that wasn't said once lmao. Your logic for the Beerus being above Jiren reasoning is a troll.

No kaioken, no ascended super Saiyan blue, no UI, no MUI. All they did was fuse. And all that was to finally make gogeta canon. Haven't even exhausted all options. Sounds like he's stronger than Jiren. Post TOP means little if we don't know how much they fit stronger. Broly is a weird case cause he randomly shot up there.

Jiren wasn't mentioned cause goku and vegeta know Jiren would wipe the floor with broly. Broly is insane but Jiren is even More insane. He would probably beat him the same way he beat Kale

 

[LightinAnt]

Your opinion literally doesn't matter since nowhere was it stated that Jiren is above Beerus, other than 1 single promo magazine. The fact that you call me a troll and that you don't realise how powerscaling works is also another plus for me

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

I know my vote won't be counted since I'm the OP, but I'll still offer some thoughts. I think Jiren is definitely above Belmod, but may or may not be above Beerus. It's basically confirmed by Whis that Jiren is stronger than his God of Destruction, which is Belmod. Whis implies that Belmod could be stronger than Beerus, but Beerus counters that point by saing he only lost an arm wrestling match (though this was against Quitela in the manga).

The other question is, is Gogeta above MUI Goku? Maybe. Who do we know that Gogeta is above for sure?

We can easily put him above 20x Kaioken Blue Goku. We can easily put him above Beyond Blue Vegeta (curious how we didn't see this form in the movie). We can easily put him above Kefla. We can easily put him above Toppo. Those last two are important. Kefla was implied to have more raw power than Omen UI. Toppo is likely above her in raw power. Master UI likely gives an additional power boost, but we know it's main advantage is the fact that Goku can now use it more offensively.

In terms of raw power, I think Gogeta might be superior. But again, we know MUI main value is not raw power, but rather, instinctive almost perfect reaction. I think even if Gogeta is superior in raw power, MUI Goku may still be the more formiddable and ultimately superior of the two. I think if Gogeta were to theoretically fight MUI Goku (however that would happen), Gogeta would indeed have a hard time hitting him while MUI would constantly and maybe even effortlessly find openings to attack. His attacks may be weaker, but I suspect he would land more often.

People tend to forget how important this feature of Ultra Instinct is. It's a big deal, but we Dragon Ball fans are so use to judging things based on raw power. The thing is, official Gods of Destruction (not candidates like Toppo) know some level of Ultra Instinct (it's not mastered). Could Jiren beat Beerus even if he has the raw power advantage? Or even Belmod for that matter? The angels such as Whis have complete mastery over Ultra Instinct (or at the very least, they are the best at it). Raw power aside, it's a big reason why they are so formiddable.

Anyway, Jiren in his own right, is highly perceptive and hard to hit in combat. He also may be the more skilled fighter compared to Broly, but Broly might have the raw power advantage. We also can't overlook the fact that Broly has Reactive Power-Level.

 

[JackJoyce]

Your opinion literally doesn't matter since nowhere was it stated that Jiren is above Beerus, other than 1 single promo magazine. The fact that you call me a troll and that you don't realise how powerscaling works is also another plus for me

Goku never witnessed a serious Beerus. At this point taking his statement to measure Beerus's strength is pointless. Also it's simply disingenuous to to say that UI is not a humongous power boost compared to UIO

Enraged UI Goku>LB Jiren=UI Goku>>Full Power Jiren>>UIO3 Goku>>SSB KKx20 Goku=SSBE Vegeta>GOD ToppoSSJ2 KeflaUIO2 Goku

Do you see how big the scaling chain is?

 

[WIll_Aureolin]

In the Broly movie, Broly almost landed a punch on Whis. Since Whis trains Beerus, Vegeta, and Goku; would that not place Broly at a higher advatage to win? And I do know some of you will try to use the "almost" against me, but that first punch Broly threw at Whis was barely dodged. I'd say Broly would definitely win as it took Final Form Frieza and Super Saiyan Goku along with Android 17 to take out Jiren. Broly used Golden Form Frieza as a punching bag and fought Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta and Super Saiyan Blue Goku and surpassed them in power and thanks to his power mimicry, he was learning as he fought.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

I do know some of you will try to use the "almost" against me

You're right. I am. Because honestly, almost really doesn't count here. Whis was super chill and casual about it, and him even saying "that was a close one" sounded playful and sarcastic, which he always does.

Goku biting Whis is more impressive.

 

[WIll_Aureolin]

I do know some of you will try to use the "almost" against me

You're right. I am. Because honestly, almost really doesn't count here. Whis was super chill and casual about it, and him even saying "that was a close one" sounded playful and sarcastic, which he always does.
Goku biting Whis is more impressive.

Except we don't see angels fighting that much in Dragon Ball Super, and even impressive to see someone try to hit them. Whis is the only one who Broly targeted that got out unscathed. That certainly speaks volumes about how strong and how much of a threat he was in the movie.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

That certainly speaks volumes about how strong and how much of a threat he was in the movie.

It really doesn't, considering we saw the same type of thing plenty of times as far back as the RoF arc when Whis was training Goku and Vegeta. There were plenty of "almost" moments. Again, Goku managed to bite Whis and actually cause pain.

 

[WIll_Aureolin]

That certainly speaks volumes about how strong and how much of a threat he was in the movie.

It really doesn't, considering we saw the same type of thing plenty of times as far back as the RoF arc when Whis was training Goku and Vegeta. There were plenty of "almost" moments. Again, Goku managed to bite Whis and actually cause pain.

It does, for the reason I stated earlier, and Vegeta, Frieza, and Goku were unable to stand up to him and they are the in the top five when it comes to skill and strength for universe 7. With Whis being the only one unscathed, it certainly shows how strong Broly is.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

With Whis being the only one unscathed, it certainly shows how strong Broly is.

I seriously am not following your logic here. How is Broly encountering an opponent he couldn't do anything to, show how strong Broly is? All it did was further emphasis how immensely powerful the angels are, which the series has been doing regularly.

 

[WIll_Aureolin]

With Whis being the only one unscathed, it certainly shows how strong Broly is.

I seriously am not following your logic here. How is Broly encountering an opponent he couldn't do anything to, show how strong Broly is? All it did was further emphasis how immensely powerful the angels are, which the series has been doing regularly.

Alright, let's start simple here so you can follow along. In his Legendary Super Saiyan form, what were Vegeta, Goku, and Frieza able to do to Broly?

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

Alright, let's start simple here so you can follow along. In his Legendary Super Saiyan form, what were Vegeta, Goku, and Frieza able to do to Broly?

Vegeta and Goku were able to stand up to him to a degree as SSB but ultimately retreated (never used Beyond, or Kaioken, or more importantly, Ultra Instinct). Frieza, as far as I can tell, was unable to do anything offensively, but managed to survive for like an hour+ (to think, this is longer than the entire ToP). I still don't know what any of this has to do with Whis being an indication of how strong Broly is.

 

[WIll_Aureolin]

(never used Beyond, or Kaioken, or more importantly, Ultra Instinct)

Goku stated that he couldn't go Ultra Instinct after the Tournament of Power.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

Goku stated that he couldn't go Ultra Instinct after the Tournament of Power.

The reason why is irrelevant. The point is, he didn't do it.

We at least know Jiren has fought against MUI, while Broly hasn't.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Broly wins. First of all, even if he is weaker at first, he'd probably adjust quickly enough to overpower Jiren. And anyway, he's stonger. Let's look at Goku first. Kefla SSJ was stronger than the Spirit bomb, which is like 40x Blue level at least, and can go SSJ2, so that's 80x Blue, and she was comparable to UIO Goku, who got stronger with stage 3, which probably means Ultra Instinct Stage 3 Goku is probably 100-200x stronger than Blue, then he went Mastered Ultra Instinct. He did okay against FP Jiren with UIO, so he's definitely over half his strength, then with MUI, he stomped FP Jiren, meaning he's probably twice as strong as him (not more, since Jiren at least held his own for a bit), meaning that at an absolute highball, MUI Goku is 800x stronger than SSJB. If you REALLY highball it, he's maybe 1000x SSJB. And LB Jiren is around that strength, so he's also 1000x Blue level (for the purposes of this discussion at least). Now let's look at Gogeta. Goku and Vegeta in Blue were being smacked around by SSJ Broly, but Base Gogeta did pretty well, so he's easily far above SSJB Goku, and he has SSJB too. Considering Base Gogeta's fight against Broly, I'd say that at a lowball, he's twice the strength of SSJB Goku, meaning Blue only needs to be 500x stronger than Base of him to be above MUI Goku, and therefore Jiren. But Broly is a lot weaker than Gogeta, so it's a little less certain. But come on, Blue is probably tens of thousands of times stronger than Base, so even if Blue Gogeta was 10x stronger than Broly (which he isn't), Broly would still be several times stronger than Jiren. And again, he improves as he fights, so any gap in power between Jiren and Broly would easily be closed and surpassed. Sure, Broly couldn't overcome Gogeta, but there's no way Jiren is the same amount stronger than Broly that Gogeta is. And rememeber, most of this is highballing for Jiren and lowballing for Broly, so the gap is probably even bigger.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Goku stated that he couldn't go Ultra Instinct after the Tournament of Power.

The reason why is irrelevant. The point is, he didn't do it.
We at least know Jiren has fought against MUI, while Broly hasn't.

Cause he didn't fight Broly in Blue for long. And the reason why is very relevant. Toriyama just didn't want to use Kaioken and Beyond.

 

[JackJoyce]

In the Broly movie, Broly almost landed a punch on Whis. Since Whis trains Beerus, Vegeta, and Goku; would that not place Broly at a higher advatage to win?

That's nonsense. Whis would toy with everyone regardless if it's Broly, Jiren or Gogeta. Also beating up an injured Jiren is no big feat. You're clearly cherry picking here. What about the time when Jiren knocked out golden Frieza with one punch?

 

[JackJoyce]

Alright, let's start simple here so you can follow along. In his Legendary Super Saiyan form, what were Vegeta, Goku, and Frieza able to do to Broly?

None of them fought Limit Breaker Jiren either. They'd get one shotted if they did

 

[JackJoyce]

I vote Inconclusive. We have no way to compare Broly or Gogeta with Jiren or UI Goku

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Uh, you could read my massive thesis on it.

 

[Jo-Smooth]

Suppressed Jiren that took on the Base through Blue Kaio-Ken Goku, the Spirit Bomb, and UI Omen 1 was compared to Gods of Destruction by *Whis*, who knows full well how strong gods of destruction, and specifically Beerus more than the others, are. Jiren powered up several times after that and then broke his limits even later on. Goku said tha *maybe* Broly surpassed Beerus, and that was at the end of the movie, meaning Broly at full power Legendary SSJ is in the same general tier as Beerus and the Gods of Destruction. So unless Jiren plays around ALOT and lets Broly get strong enough to surpass him, he should win without much trouble.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Some GoDs, not necessarily all. And UI Omen Stage 3 was stated in a promo as roughly equal to Beerus. And they're probably saying might because they don't want to make Beerus irrelevant or something like that. Maybe they don't want to madden the many people who think beerus shouldn't be surpassed. Also, by 126, Jiren had powered up significantly, and Goku was fighting OK against him, and Vegeta was comparable to Goku, but in SSJBE was weaker than Toppo for a while. So unless you're saying Toppo is stronger than Beerus, the GoDs thing doesn't include Beerus.

 

[ZERO7772]

Lol you guys.

Ep110 info are BS considering even Blue Goku/Vegeta could take on "hint of true power" and force him to fight near full power in their ascended blue forms. Jiren is GoD tier only at full power or else Goku would be be slaughtering GoD in SSB by now which we know IS flase. I don't want to be rude, but anyone some brain should realize that Whiss comments is BS at that point.

This fight could go either way depending on what approach you want to take, feats, narrative, promo material etc...

 

[Mr_John_West]

Broly wins

He rises way too quickly in power, and even if Jiren had a power advantage in his LB form, Broly will just catch up and smack him. Just remember, SSJ Vegeta was smacking around Base Broly but he caught up and overpowered SSJ Vegeta. SSJ Gogeta was smack SSJ Broly but he overpowered and rekt SSJ Gogeta. Unless you have a huge power advantage like SSJB Gogeta did (and even he didn't put down Broly easily as he took so many attacks and never feel to his knees, was still able to get a power up) then you won't be beating Broly.

 

[ZERO7772]

Not to mentioned Jiren is utterly arrogant and ******** who for some reason prefer to use 1% of his power rather finishing his enemy quickly, which is the worst thing you can do against Broly. Broly would be manhandling him before Jiren know he f*cked up.

In his match against Goku, he kept holding back until the last min and by that time it was already too late and Goku was stomping him left and right.

 

[Jimboydejuan12]

dude much a stomp thread like this.

 

[GoddessOfWinterr-]

This should not be a debate. I know Jiren ain't liked and broly is a fan favorite but this debate isn't even good. Im gunna explain why's

One, broly's Power level increase ain't limitless. Otherwise he wasn't about to just be killed by gogeta blue. Yes broly was getting washed and he had to be sent away.

2, Jiren is a way better hand to hand fighter. Broly is just a berserker, guess what happened to the last one?

3. Broly is a maybe stronger than Beerus when Jiren was hyped above a god of destruction at his super casual level. He made Beerus nervous by flexing his ki.

4. Stop giving post TOP scaling that don't exist in the way y'all think it does. It's post TOP. And? That is useless information considering we don't know how much they improved and they haven't fought anyone comparable to Jiren since then.

5. Why is gogeta blue hyped above Mastered ultra instinct? The only reason I'm seeing is, it's a strong fusion and it's post TOP. Then again look back at #4.

6. Ultra instinct is the most important thing in dragon ball. The gods were nervous at an incomplete one, it's a given when he used it the third time he was stronger than the gods of destruction. Mastered ultra instinct puts him quite a bit above them.

7. Ultra instinct is a power boost.

8. Jiren would probably go to just kill the guy. Before he even ever increased his power level to ridiculous levels. In the tournament of power he was limited. He had to guess how much power he needed to put someone out. Rather than just going all out and finishing then.

9. After all that, broly is a maybe stronger than Beerus. Jiren is a lot stronger than Beerus at full power, kinda makes you wonder why goku never said Jiren instead. It's simple. Jiren wipes the floor with broly.

10. Wanna know why UI wasn't in the movie? Because broly wouldn't touch the guy.

11. No broly ain't almost hit whis, whis is a major troll. He's is completely unworried.

12. Jiren wins without that limitless rage boost. I say when he went all out against UI is enough. When he said "I guess I must respond." That's how much power he would need for "full power broly." Thats being generous tho.

 

[GoddessOfWinterr-]

That's all the reasons why I think broly would get washed. Let me think of evidence for broly.

1. Post tournament of power. How much did they improve since then? Idk. Have they ever fought someone comparable to Jiren since then? No. So how valid is this? Not much.

2. A new villain.

3. Maybe stronger than Beerus. How much does this matter if he is a maybe while Jiren is clearly way above Beerus? Not sure.


In short nothing that valid

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

@GoddessOfWinterr-

I think you make really good points and I agree with most of them. Only, how do we know Jiren is stonger than Beerus?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

This fight could go either way depending on what approach you want to take, feats, narrative, promo material etc...

Yeah, this is part of the issue, here. This fight is so ludicrously subjective that I'm not quite sure where one would even get such confidence to state things one way or another.

Broly is hyped to be the new strongest boi on the block (disregarding obvious stuff like angels, new fusions, and Zen'o). But then the best hype he gets at the end of the movie is that he's probably stronger than Beerus in Goku's opinion, but even that's not guaranteed? That's the kind of shit Jiren was getting with GoDs before he even went Jiren Rojo limit breaker.

Matters also aren't helped by the fact that Jiren fought against forms of Goku and Vegeta that were not used in DBS: Broly, which is likely due in part to the fact that Toriyama had a more direct hand in the movie's screenplay. It's not like the exact same team did both.

To make things even worse, Broly and Jiren lose to very different people. Jiren's full power is beat down by a very pissed off MUI Goku, while Broly had to be saved from Gogeta Blue. We can speculate where they stand in relation to each other, but we can't just say "Gogeta > Goku in all forms" in this case considering the form Goku beat Jiren with was one he explicitly lost the ability to use (for the moment) and whose power boost isn't exactly clearly defined.

tl;dr

I don't even think the staff have concluded who they want to be stronger yet, if they even really care about that. We're severely lacking in solid comparisons between the two, and the best both of them have is being compared to different GoDs by different people under different circumstances.

This feels like a 1-A fight.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Okay, I think I understand the conclusion we've come to.


Upgrade Jiren and Broly to 1-A.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes.

 

[GoddessOfWinterr-]

Jiren is definitely stronger than Beerus. @meleenium There doesn't even need to be a direct comparison. We already know Jiren was getting god of destruction hype at casual levels, plus Jiren just flexing his ki had him all like (woah, is all this energy really coming from one warrior?!). That doesn't mean right there he is stronger than Beerus it's just worth noting.

Ultra instinct also had the gods shook, which we learn Jiren wasn't trying at all during Said fight. We know multiple times after that, Jiren used a lot more power than when he was compared to be above a god of destruction.

So it's safe to Assume whenever he went full power, he is definitely above Beerus. This is even including when he broke his limit.

They compared broly to Beerus, but not Jiren, cause I'm pretty sure that is quite obvious meant that Jiren is above Beerus, and thus cant compare broly to Jiren.

Beerus actually has nothing going for him other than he is a god of destruction. Right around Kefla is where god of destruction tier is. Higher ups are probably around ultra instinct 3rd trigger. Definitely not MUI Tier, definitely not limit breaking Jiren tier. Full power Jiren imo is above them all.

There are good reasons why. So we don't even know if Beerus is at the top, he's definitely not since he's on champa tier. I think some thought Beerus was the strongest because he got jumped in the manga. This annoys me bc just because you get jumped and do well, doesn't mean you are stronger than everyone you are fighting. It's false hype. Being jumped and beating every single one is a good feat, if no that then most. So he ain't the strongest GOD. Probably mid tier. And I think Jiren is above every single one.