Bringing a Knife Into a Gunfight (Jack vs Lich)

[Flashlight237]

Let's say on Jack's search for a way back into the past, he hears word of a portable time machine in the form of a bullet called "Bullet That Can Kill The Past." Suspicious of these rumors, Jack went into the gungeon itself. As one would expect from a guy like him, Jack plowed through the whole thing thanks to his skills with his sword among other things. Eventually, Jack makes it to the Lich himself. With his sword ready, Jack faces off against the skeletal gunslinger himself.

Bear in mind, Jack had repeated bouts with a Tier 6-B character (Aku), so this shouldn't be too much trouble for Jack. That aside...

1. Let me emphasize that the Lich's Type 8 immortality relies specifically on outside help (Kaliber). Due to Standard Battle Assumptions not allowing outside help, Lich won't have Type 8 Immortality here obviously.

2. Jack still maintains his reactions (as reactions are necessary in order to dodge Danmaku); other forms of speed are equalized.

That aside, who takes this?



Jack: 1 (Grimreaperofjustice)
Lich: 0

Inconclusive: 0

 

[Grimreaperofjustice]

Jack via experience versataliy and speed

 

[Drite77]

Lich AP Stomps Jack, literally, if Lich hits, then Jack insta dies. And Lich have Mid-High Regen, and i don't think that Jack can bypass that. This is a Stomp

 

[Drite77]

Lich have more than 100 times the AP an Dura, i would like to hear how this is not a stomp

 

[Flashlight237]

Lich have more than 100 times the AP an Dura, i would like to hear how this is not a stomp

Samurai Jack had plenty of squabbles with Aku. If anything, Lich is more or less a heavily-downgraded Aku.

Also, Jack's sword bypasses the durability of evil beings.

 

[Drite77]

I don't think that you can equalize only certain parts of the speed, it is either Equalized, or not equalized, i might ask a mod about this. Also, Lich have a good amount of Hax, like his mind manipulation, who Jack can't counter, he also have a better Regen and Reality Warp, also, the dura negation is in fact a big advantage, but i don't think Jack's sword will be as effective on Lich like it was with Aku, since Aku is a fragment of the greatest manifestation of evil. Lich also have some Homing attacks, and if only one hits Jack, is over for him. If this is not a stomp, i vote for Lich

 

[Grimreaperofjustice]

I don't think that you can equalize only certain parts of the speed, it is either Equalized, or not equalized, i might ask a mod about this. Also, Lich have a good amount of Hax, like his mind manipulation, who Jack can't counter, he also have a better Regen and Reality Warp, also, the dura negation is in fact a big advantage, but i don't think Jack's sword will be as effective on Lich like it was with Aku, since Aku is a fragment of the greatest manifestation of evil. Lich also have some Homing attacks, and if only one hits Jack, is over for him. If this is not a stomp, i vote for Lich

smh

 

[Drite77]

smh

??

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

...

So uh...

What's stopping that god-tier the Lich has backing him from just...rewinding time until he manages to kill Jack?

Is that not a thing anymore, or...?

 

[Flashlight237]

.
What's stopping that god-tier the Lich has backing him from just...rewinding time until he manages to kill Jack?

The "no outside help" rule in Standard Battle Assumptions? Duh!

 

[Drite77]

"It is heavily implied that the Lich has his own Gun that can Kill the Past, and thus can send himself or others back in time" This is not outside help

 

[Flashlight237]

"It is heavily implied that the Lich has his own Gun that can Kill the Past, and thus can send himself or others back in time" This is not outside help

Except pretty sure Negativity is referring to Kaliber.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

I'll have to ask Bambu about it again, but every time I've seen the Lich used in a match, Kaliber reversing time is something that gets mentioned in his favor.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Type 8, Blessings and such are still allowed, as always.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Actually yeah, Type 8 is not disallowed by SBA, especially when it is an integral part of the character.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Also yeah Lich never uses his gun if he has it, just implied by lore that he does indeed have it. Basically only useful if bloodlusted/victorylusted, thus acting out of character.

Anyhow. Lich can't be killed with that gap and Type 8 so RIP. Anyone got a reason why this ain't a stomp?

As for AP. Lich in 8-B is only 13 tons or so.

 

[Schnee_One]

WAIT

 

[Mr. Bambu]

TIAW

 

[Schnee_One]

Anyhow. Lich can't be killed with that gap and Type 8 so RIP. Anyone got a reason why this ain't a stomp?

As for AP. Lich in 8-B is only 13 tons or so.

If this is true what about some of his other wins?

His loss as well since....Well it's MB

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Lich doesn't stomp many due to the fact that dodging his particular form of BFR is possible. Unlikely, but possible. Explained this to you in particular about 800 times now, seems like. Suspect it'll be done another 800.

Then again I s'pose Jack has the stamina to do it, albeit he'd have to do it for 24 hours under SBA.

 

[Schnee_One]

?

Avoiding BFR doesn't give you a win against a dude who has a god that rewinds time.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

oh wait what the ****

Relativistic reactions

vs High Hypersonic

...this basically forces Incon, no? If Jack could kill Lich then maybe, but like he can't actually win without being killed and sent back outside of Lich's reach. Lich will literally never hit him.

What even

 

[Mr. Bambu]

?
Avoiding BFR doesn't give you a win against a dude who has a god that rewinds time.

Yes it does when the dude is sealed away and that would basically be equivalent to him being trapped outside the fight.

 

[Schnee_One]

That makes since

In that case, Jack Stomps because he avoids the BFR through sheer speed

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Not even that, Jack can't get killed to get sent back in time to begin with.

Jack just dodges and attacks Lich constantly and can't really do any permanent damage due to regen/Type 8.

 

[Schnee_One]

Whelp

Probably the most one sided Incon on this site thus far

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Truly. Relativistic Reactions has literally 0 issue dodging High Hypersonic projectiles, fists, etc.

 

[Schnee_One]

Funny enough I was going to throw the Lich against Doctor Strange a while back.

 

[Flashlight237]

Anyhow. Lich can't be killed with that gap and Type 8 so RIP. Anyone got a reason why this ain't a stomp?

Look at how big of a gap Jack has against Aku (8-C vs 6-B), yet he had numerous farces with him without it being a stomp.

Also, again, Lich is technically an evil being. Considering that sword negates durability for evil beings at least upwards 6-B afaik... Ye.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

PIS is a thing.

That doesn't negate Lich coming back though.

Like literally this is just Jack constantly attacking Lich, Lich regenerating/time going back, forever, with Lich being totally and 100% unable to actually hit him due to OP keeping Jack's reactions as absurdly higher than what Lich can deal with.

 

[Flashlight237]

Like literally this is just Jack constantly attacking Lich, Lich regenerating/time going back, forever, with Lich being totally and 100% unable to actually hit him due to OP keeping Jack's reactions as absurdly higher than what Lich can deal with.

Last time I checked, reactions are primarily timing; there's a difference between reacting and acting upon said reaction. Like, say, someone shoots a bullet 100 meters away from you and said bullet is heading right between your eyes. Sure, you have 0.25 seconds to react (which is human reaction time more or less), but would those 0.25 seconds really mean you can dodge the bullet?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Let's say a Mach 56 Missile is fifty meters away from you. With equalized speed, you're moving roughly as fast. Except you react at 0.10c.

That thing is very nearly as slow as a snail in your reactions. Maneuvering your body in such a way it doesn't hit you is child's play.

 

[Flashlight237]

That thing is very nearly as slow as a snail in your reactions. Maneuvering your body in such a way it doesn't hit you is child's play.

Okay, and let's say you're up against Danmaku ("s*** flying everywhere" in informal terms). Without reactions, how can one feasibly handle danmaku without prior knowledge of the opponent, especially considering those zero-hit Touhou runs featuring people who basically got the rhythm of it (and yes, there is actually a rhythm you have to memorize; I've seen some bullet hell videos).

 

[Mr. Bambu]

You can't. That's sorta the point. The counter is experiencing Danmaku before or just having the dura to be like "lawlwtf". This match-up is sorta cursed in that if you go under speed equal, Jack gets ******* mauled instantly, and in unequal it's just a fast character against a much slower one.

 

[Flashlight237]

You can't. That's sorta the point. The counter is experiencing Danmaku before or just having the dura to be like "lawlwtf". This match-up is sorta cursed in that if you go under speed equal, Jack gets ******* mauled instantly, and in unequal it's just a fast character against a much slower one.

It's especially a curse when the OP (myself) can't figure out how argue for 6-B durability negation from a sword handling an 8-B with just a single tier point higher in regen above what said 6-B character had on him.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

PIS is a thing.

Not to butt in and derail or anything, but Jack kicking Aku's ass isn't PIS. It's repeatedly made clear that the reasons Jack wins so much are due to the properties of his sword mixed with his own raw combat skill. It's even stated in Season 5 (a few times even, IIRC) that without the sword, Jack has no chance against Aku, and he actively avoids fighting him until he has his sword again.

I've said this before, a rather long time ago, but...yeah.

 

[Schnee_One]

@King

Gooooooood times that thread

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Noted but doesn't change the fact that repeatedly bringing up "He beat 6-B" as a point in his favor is worthless here. From the sound of it, it's Batman using Kryptonite to kill Superman. Weakness aboose.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

I think the reason it's brought up is because the Lich still qualifies as an "evil" being, and would therefore qualify as being weak to Jack's blade as well.

I don't know the actual veracity of said claims (because I still haven't gotten to play EtG yet), but that's what it seems like, from what I've read here.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I... am not sure Lich qualifies as evil, actually.

Lich's backstory is that he was essentially a super OP gunslinger down in the gungeon and worked together with an ancestor of the blacksmith to create the Gun that can Kill the Past, thus showing better hold over time "magic" than Kaliber, who is a jealous wench and thus cursed him.