Bloodstained: Ritual of the Upgrade

[ShadowWhoWalks]

“What a delightful night to have an upgrade.”



​

Currently, the main entry in the Bloodstained verse is severely downplayed in the Vs Battles Wiki in Attack Potency and Durability, clocking in at only 9-A, based on this calc. However much has been missed as large part of the lore is conveyed through conversations, item description, and enemy description. I shall recount statements that should grant the verse quite the sizable upgrade.

For instance, the description for the very first boss, Vepar, encountered and defeated in the beginning of the game states:

A sea-demon feared for hailing storms and casting ships into the abyss.

Miriam was able to defeat it and absorb its shard, which grants her the demon's power and the ability to summon it. Hailing storms is at least small city level.

But that's not all... later in the game Miriam can acquire the spear Areadbhar, which has the description:

A spear that produces flames capable of leveling whole cities.

Which is a straight-forward City level statement, and establishes that the lack of AoE and environmental destruction displayed by attacks is game mechanics.

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An overlooked feat was cutting the moon in half. A weapon that is important to the story is Zangetsuto, which holds the description:

A great blade whose bearers are given the name Zangetsu, or "moon sunderer."

And Miriam does just that with the sword.

When Gebel is close to defeat it is stated that Gremory will appear, in other words Gremory has replaced the moon in the background with herself before the cut.

In the alternative universe spin-off, Curse of the Moon 2, Zangetsu is seen sundering the moon in one of the endings.

Scaling with Gremory is also possible. She has an in-game description and a longer promotional description:

A demoness of half-human, half-beast form. She presides over the moon.

The 56th demon in Solomon’s grimoire. A demon with the status of a duke, also known as the goddess of the moon. Summoned by Gebel, this demon oversees one portion of the castle. She is capable of creating portals into different dimensions; once there, she can harness the power of the moon and use it to attack her enemies, firing endless crescent moon knives at her opponents. She also has a devastating gravity attack that's generated by power of the lacquer-black moon.

Characters in the spin-off, Curse of the Moon share the same character design and moveset. In Curse of the Moon Gremory is seen capturing moons from different dimensions to power her attacks, which fits the description.
An attack she uses both in Ritual of the Night and Curse of the Moon is bringing the moon out of her portal and using it to attack slamming it on her opponent.

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Moving on from sundering moons, a certain greatsword named Durandal is stated to be capable of sundering all things in the universe.

A champion's greatsword, capable of sundering all things in the universe.

Theoretically, this would include large stars.

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Lets go further into space. One of the weapons, Eu's Sword, implies the existence of universe-level characters.

A certain ruler of the universe's sword. Its power has faded.

We are not talking about an empire that conquers galaxies with space ships, but a person who rules the universe using a sword and magic. Creation of pocket dimensions exists in the verse as confirmed by the 8-bit Nightmare which is accessed through a book.

Interestingly enough, the description of one of the weapons, Hell's Kneel, states:

Shoes that a demon created with the intent of beheading God himself.

In other words, Miriam acquired a weapon made for the purpose of killing what is understood as a universe creator.

By summoning Bael, the villain of the game claims to gain the power to surpass God and slay him. (the villain was a member of the Church, and would understand 'God' as the creator of the universe). Miriam then defeats her while she is merged with Bael.

Bael himself is called "The ultimate demon", "king of kings", and "high ruler of all demonkind". So he is top-tier in the verse.

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After this tier revision, there are various missing abilities and character profiles that should be added, both for the main game and for Curse of the Moon 1 & 2 characters.

Due to the growth in power level, Miriam should have multiple keys: Early-game, Mid-game, and Late-game. My proposed tier is:

City Level -> Moon Level -> Universe Level+​

or

City Level -> Moon Level -> Large Star Level. Possibly Universe Level+​

 

[Chariot190]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Chariot190/sandbox

I calced the moon split, it's 5-A. gotta calc the slash speed as well, will probably end up rel to rel+.

Ruling the universe means nothing, to vague, nor does it imply universe level, a ruler of a country isnt country busting, even if ruled through literal raw power, all that would be needed is the power above the rest, a city busting character can rule a country with nothing but 9-B's, same logic applies. Needs more specification. .

The Universe thing seems way to vague and could just be flowery language without further proof or clarification. So not on board with that, the city level statement is kinda explicit and straightforward, nothing to be confused on so that's fine. There's also other feats that would warrant a drastic upgrade as well, 9-A is ludicrously low when there's a bunch of feats like storms and multi km nuking statements and the like.

 

[PuasLuisZX]

I mean, Universal+ Miriam is something that could be possible due the way Bloodstained is similar on Castlevania.

 

[Chariot190]

By that logic Samus is low 2-C because Castlevania is similar to Metroid, or JoJo is tier 6 because it's kinda like FOTNS, or Hollow Knight is tier 4 because it's like Dark Souls.

That's absolutely not a reason to say something is a certain tier when it lacks concrete statements or feats anywhere near that. The universe statements are way to vague at the moment, unless there's more to support it, it's a hard no from me. Tier 5 could happen all things considered, pretty sure there's some straightforward stuff implying it in game.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

I think the argument is less about genre similarity, and more about both Castlevania and Bloodstained being written by Koji Igarashi; it makes it more likely since he wrote Castlevania for so long, but this shouldn't be part of the evaluation.

Having universal tier is more likely and intuitive than a monarch of a Universal Civilization who had his magic sword ending up on Earth.
But the above is only supporting evidence to the weapon unironically designed to slay God, and the ex-Church executor who claims to attain power that surpasses God by her well-planned ritual of summoning (and then merging) with the king of demons.

Description statements are all written in a matter-of-fact tone; it isn't consistent to consider some as flowery language.

Supporter Summon: @Ogbunabali

 

[Chariot190]

None of what you said actually matters here. A different example then? Metal Gear and Zone of the Enders, both sci-fi, mecha video games, written by Kojima, that wouldn't make Metal Gear tier 4 suddenly out of nowhere because it's similar to another thing he did with it even being camoe'd often in Metal Gear itself.
If there's no proof or evidence in the source itself, that's that.

And it being written matter of factly doesn't help either because that statement itself is vague in and of itself.

A certain ruler of the universe's sword. Its power has faded.

Is what it says, all it says is that someone who ruled the universe's sword, it's power has faded. That doesn't tell us anything about how strong the sword is or what it's capable of, the monarch example most certainly applies here, because that's all the info we are given. It belonging to someone who ruled the universe doesn't make it universal, to bring an example, Frieza from DBZ was ruler of the universe, if he had a sword, it wouldn't make it universal. Ruling a country doesn't make one a country buster the same way ruling a universe doesn't make one a universe buster.
This evidence is completely moot as support with further elaboration to this weapon itself.

And fyi, a weapon designed to slay god doesn't make something universal if God himself in context doesn't have a tier, God could just be something like Tier 5 or 4, we don't know enough about him to label him as tier 2, ignoring the fact it says it had the intent of beheading God, not that it actually could or would prove successful.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Metal Gear is more of a stealth game with vastly inferior technology level, not that counter-examples negates my point; saying something is more likely doesn't mean that it is certain or conclusive. As I said, shouln't be part of the evaluation, so it doesn't matter.

If it is written in a matter of faculty then it is literal and not flowery language. The first statement are vague though, but they serve as supporting evidence to the definitive statement.
Claiming that someone has a universal space empire with spaceships like Frieza in Bloodstained is less intuitive than the alternative, which is why it is supporting statement for the alternative.

The enemies of demons, the Church executors, believe in a universal god, and you are saying that the demon who created the weapon might specifically and secretly knows that this god is Tier 5 or Tier 4, and thus limited the weapon to this level?

You have yet to address the main evidence/statement, which is straight-forward; we know the power level and she says that the ritual will give her a higher power level.

 

[Chariot190]

Yes, despite both MG and Zone of the Enders being a sci-fi mecha anime-esque game with mecha's, cyborgs, psychics, genetics, military operations and even the supernatural, both created by and directed by the same person, it has inferior technology, just like how Bloodstained is a metroid-esque gothic horror game with vastly inferior power to Castlevania. Your point is, no offense, awful and something we will never actually use here. It shouldn't be part of the evaluation, and if it was, it be a literal moot point.

>If it is written in a matter of faculty then it is literal and not flowery language. The first statement are vague though, but they serve as supporting evidence to the definitive statement.

Except it doesn't, why? Because the first statement has absolutely zero support. You're literally saying because it uses the word universal, it must mean it's supportive of a universal rating. Unfortunately, not how it works. The only thing we get from that statement is that it was a sword that belonged to someone who conquered the universe, that's it. That by itself means literally nothing without further elaboration on how he did it, the power of the wielder, the power pf the blade and so on. As said, it'd be like if someone seriously argued early DBZ Frieza as universal because he conquered a universe or argued his ship was universal because it belonged to him, sure they're powerful, but universal? Definitely not without actual evidence. The statement gives us zero information to draw power or a rating from, and it doesn't serve to support anything because that statement itself doesn't actually give a rating or imply one directly. It's useless without further elaboration, even as support, and the other statements in turn don't support it too.

>The enemies of demons, the Church executors, believe in a universal god,

Almost positive that's never actually said anywhere in game. Nothing actually says they think that their God is universal+ or anything of the sort, just that he's a God.

>and you are saying that the demon who created the weapon might specifically and secretly knows that this god is Tier 5 or Tier 4,

Honestly, that's a far more likely conclusion, if that demon in the first place somehow had the power to create a weapon that you're directly arguing to be capable of killing God, that Demon should, by default, know the power of that God, or, alternatively, that demon is full of shit and failed, or both. Though, it doesn't matter, even if the demon knew or didn't know, exactly how powerful God was, the description only states that it was intended to be capable of killing God, not that it could, the fact it says it was intended, not that it could, implies it can't, implying it lacks the power to do so, meaning it doesn't even matter how strong God is, I could try creating a gun with the intent to take down a large building, doesn't mean it actually can.

>and thus limited the weapon to this level?

You're acting like what you're saying must absolutely be true when the statement itself is inherently flawed, and that the demon in question must have had power beyond that, that's a huge extrapolation in logic. There's always the very real possibility that he didn't purposely limit anything, but rather that was simply the best he could do and fell short.

>You have yet to address the main evidence/statement, which is straight-forward; we know the power level and she says that the ritual will give her a higher power level.

Yet, in the same line says "Gods", so that already calls into question Bloodstained's religion, given if Dom believes in multiple Gods, well that's already blasphemous, ignoring that her goal was blasphemy. You're also trying to mix irl religion with Bloodstained's to draw a tier for God, when Bloodstained isn't actually completely accurate with real world equivalent's. Unless in game it's specifically pointed out to be universal, it ain't, you're extrapolating a tier based on preconceived notions that aren't actually confirmed or stated in game.

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The universal conqueror sword doesn't support anything, the quote itself doesn't give any notion of power without jumping to conclusions that aren't based on actual evidence, sorry, but it doesn't work.

The boots to behead a God is sus, it only says it has the intent to behead a god, not that it could or that the demon in question proved successful, it's vague at best, ignoring that the God in question doesn't have a tier that we can give it.

Your last point, and the only point that doesn't rely on vague wording or jumps in logic, is that Dom thought she would gain a power to kills Gods. One could argue that Dom was disillusioned, but ignoring that, so what? We have no idea how strong that Gods she was talking about in the first place even were. Without concrete evidence that the God's were actually tier 2, it means nothing, she's stating she may of gained a power to kill gods that lack a tier.

Find better proof or hard statements, and prove that God is tier 2 within the source material, cross scaling with real life religion isn't gonna happen, we don't do that unless confirmed to be 1:1 (and if it did, it wouldn't even be tier 2, the biblical God I'm assuming you're talking about doesn't actually have tier 2 feats, he has feats way lower then that or statements way higher. And that's also depending on which bible you're reading, it's gone through reiterations over the course of the last few hundred years, you'd have to prove which iteration Bloodstained uses if you went this route too).

Which leaves just the Durandal quote in your OP for that of a way higher tier, I'm not touching that, you'll need input from elsewhere because if taken at literal face value that could end up High 3-A, Tier 3-C, and so on, when the second highest statement that's actually usable is far less, which at that point is either an outlier without further corroboration, not meant to be taken at facevalue, or even hax and a whole lot more.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Yes, despite both MG and Zone of the Enders being a sci-fi mecha anime-esque game with mecha's, cyborgs, psychics, genetics, military operations and even the supernatural, both created by and directed by the same person, it has inferior technology, just like how Bloodstained is a metroid-esque gothic horror game with vastly inferior power to Castlevania. Your point is, no offense, awful and something we will never actually use here. It shouldn't be part of the evaluation, and if it was, it be a literal moot point.

Can you concisely summarize that point you think I was making? It seems to me that you haven't understood it at all and is thus responding to something different.

Except it doesn't, why? Because the first statement has absolutely zero support. You're literally saying because it uses the word universal, it must mean it's supportive of a universal rating.

Nope. I am literally saying that the word universal can mean:
1- Universal power level
or
2- A universal space empire

And that the first option is more intuitive, and thus the statement acts as supporting evidence to the main evidence.

Almost positive that's never actually said anywhere in game. Nothing actually says they think that their God is universal+ or anything of the sort, just that he's a God.

The game takes place in 1793 in England during the Industrial Revolution in the continent of Europe. Are you aware of a historical mainstream Church at the time which doesn't believe God created the universe?

Honestly, that's a far more likely conclusion, if that demon in the first place somehow had the power to create a weapon that you're directly arguing to be capable of killing God, that Demon should, by default, know the power of that God, or, alternatively, that demon is full of shit and failed, or both. Though, it doesn't matter, even if the demon knew or didn't know, exactly how powerful God was, the description only states that it was intended to be capable of killing God, not that it could, the fact it says it was intended, not that it could, implies it can't, implying it lacks the power to do so, meaning it doesn't even matter how strong God is, I could try creating a gun with the intent to take down a large building, doesn't mean it actually can.

So you agree that Bloodstained demons, who come from other dimensions, can have the notion that they can create weapons powerful enough to kill the being called "God", correct?

Yet, in the same line says "Gods", so that already calls into question Bloodstained's religion, given if Dom believes in multiple Gods, well that's already blasphemous, ignoring that her goal was blasphemy. You're also trying to mix irl religion with Bloodstained's to draw a tier for God, when Bloodstained isn't actually completely accurate with real world equivalent's. Unless in game it's specifically pointed out to be universal, it ain't, you're extrapolating a tier based on preconceived notions that aren't actually confirmed or stated in game.

'gods' without a capital letter; the beginning of her monologue is about the single God believed by the Church, and she says the ritual will give her power to surpass him. Working with Miriam in the first place is blasphemous as she is considered a demon that should be exterminated by the Church.

If you believe that it is reasonable to believe that the world of Bloodstained is not so different as to not have a continent of Africa, then it is reasonable to believe that the mainstream Church believe that God created the universe; we are not talking about tiny details about doctrines here.

Which leaves just the Durandal quote in your OP for that of a way higher tier, I'm not touching that, you'll need input from elsewhere because if taken at literal face value that could end up High 3-A, Tier 3-C, and so on, when the second highest statement that's actually usable is far less, which at that point is either an outlier without further corroboration, not meant to be taken at facevalue, or even hax and a whole lot more.

A solar system or a galaxy can be defined as a collection of multiple celestial objects, and a real blackhole can't be destroyed through conventional attacks, so if taken at face value then Large Star level is what is reasonable, since the weaker Zangetsuto can sunder smaller celestial objects.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Bump
@Ogbunabali

 

[Antvasima]

Only staff members can use notifications: @Ogbunabali

Anyway, what are the summarised conclusions here?

 

[Ogbunabali]

For instance, the description for the very first boss, Vepar, encountered and defeated in the beginning of the game states:

We don't have a direct feat for the scale and how fast Vepar creates the storms so it can't be calced. And even if we did we don't scale storms to physical AP/dura without some direct reasons to.

But that's not all... later in the game Miriam can acquire the spear Areadbhar, which has the description:

That's extremely vague and no time frame and it doesn't mean at all that it does it with a single omnidirectional blast to warrant that rating. For all we know it could just mean it burns the whole city over time with the fires it produces, which seems to be the most likely scenario.

An overlooked feat was cutting the moon in half. A weapon that is important to the story is Zangetsuto, which holds the description:

Vague statement with no feats to back it up, and we see in the game that this is more metaphorical in Ritual of the Night (her transforming in a very small moon in the Gebel fight and in the hall when you cut her in order to open a portal, and her summoning small moons in the boss fight) as opposed to Curse of the Moon when Gremory's moon status is more literal. So an unusable feat.

Moving on from sundering moons, a certain greatsword named Durandal is stated to be capable of sundering all things in the universe.

Another vague statement without any context or feats, so unusable.

Lets go further into space. One of the weapons, Eu's Sword, implies the existence of universe-level characters.

Ruler of the universe doesn't mean universal in AP, it doesn't mean anything, even taken at face value.

After this tier revision, there are various missing abilities and character profiles that should be added, both for the main game and for Curse of the Moon 1 & 2 characters.

LIke what? Besides the Curse of the Moon's Zangetsu's weird/implied time travel/dimensional travel/resurrection thing (which needs its own thread I plan on making in the future), there isn't anything missing from what I'm seeing.



Look, I get the 9-A seems low, especially compared to the other installments and its predecessor, but Ritual of the Night just doesn't have any feats on its own to give it a higher rating. Besides some vague statements that maybe could be interpreted as higher it just caps out at this level. There will very likely be future games, so we just have to wait for future installments.

 

[Antvasima]

Ogbunabali seems to make sense to me. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Chariot190]

I personally think the spear thing is at least usable, burning something down to the ground doesn't imply leveling, which is what it says. The rest of the shit though I obviously don't agree on using and I've made that clear. There's some weather feats I think as well that would support a tier around that. Though it's true that weather feats don't scale without reason, it could possibly be argued that it takes the same magical power. There's also the Demon Train and the Valaac, in CotM he's stated to be able to scorch things for kilometers with his breath, do we know if that statement or something similar is said in RotN?

 

[Ogbunabali]

Levelling a city is still equally vague, we'd either have to assume that's an omnidirectional explosion the size of a city or some other equally arbitrary size. Which are both guesswork and obviously unusable.

Like what? I don't remember any weather feats happening in the game itself. The only ones I can think of besides Vepar's description is the castle's turning the skies red. But we don't have a timeframe and if I recall correctly it was implied it wasn't instant, but we wouldn't be able to scale it to anyone anyway.

I was looking for a similar statement for that boss as well, but there wasn't any from what I could find. Even went through all the Kickstarter posts and whatnot.

 

[Chariot190]

Could be wrong, but isn't that defined as basically flattening something, or to be more specific, turning something so it's of a completely even elevation? Ie, the flames can flatten a city. Of course we don't have a timeframe or a size, but, assuming it's meant to be like "hey this thing can do it in like one attack", it'd be usable, size is iffy of course, but we'd just use a average city from the time. Of course we don't actually know if it's one attack or not, hence why using it as merely support if other more concrete feats could be found would be the best route of action.

Don't know off the top of my head, I just thought there was some, I haven't played it since the week of launch so I'm a bit rusty on RotN, CotM I'm fresh on but obviously we aren't talking about that.

The Valaac quote, at least for CotM, is from here.Wondering if we have anything akin to that for RotN.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Yeah it could be fine as a supporting feat, but there just aren't many feats in this one. We have to wait for future instalments.

 

[Antvasima]

So what should we do here?

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

We don't have a direct feat for the scale and how fast Vepar creates the storms so it can't be calced. And even if we did we don't scale storms to physical AP/dura without some direct reasons to.

There is a storm that accompanied Vepar's attack on the gallery at the beginning of the game, and the clouds are moving pretty fast. Plus, the Enviromental Destruction page provides example of good calcs, and that includes a Dungeons & Dragons calc based on text description about a dragon passively creating storms around the lair it chooses to reside in, and the text description does not mention any speed; do you consider this something that can't be calced?
It happens that one of the direct reasons for scaling Enviromental Destruction and Creation feats to AP/Durability is when the same magical power can be used on a smaller scale.

That's extremely vague and no time frame and it doesn't mean at all that it does it with a single omnidirectional blast to warrant that rating. For all we know it could just mean it burns the whole city over time with the fires it produces, which seems to be the most likely scenario.

Why omnidirectional blast? It could be at the direction the spear is pointing to.
How is that vague? Your argument seems to be on the line of: "Technically, I can burn a city too using a torch if given enough time (ignoring that cities can have large stone walls) so the spear's flames are not special afterall", which is downplay. Also, we are talking about leveling/flattening cities; is it a 'likely scenario' for the user of the spear to labor over many days to do this?

Vague statement with no feats to back it up, and we see in the game that this is more metaphorical in Ritual of the Night (her transforming in a very small moon in the Gebel fight and in the hall when you cut her in order to open a portal, and her summoning small moons in the boss fight) as opposed to Curse of the Moon when Gremory's moon status is more literal. So an unusable feat.

How come you ignored the feats and context below the statement then?
Gremory in Curse of the Moon summons small moons in her boss fights:


So due to various abilities being moon-shaped and moon-themed, this would translate to her other feats being dismissed as metaphors?

Another vague statement without any context or feats, so unusable.

Scales above Zangetsuto's sundering, but lets get that addressed first.

Ruler of the universe doesn't mean universal in AP, it doesn't mean anything, even taken at face value.

Supporting evidence to the main evidence below (by summoning the most powerful demon and later merging with it, the villain claims to acquire superior power to the god the Church of 18th century Europe believes in), which you did not address. I agree that it doesn't neccessarily mean universal in AP, but the alternative is a universal alien empire that uses magical swords.

LIke what? Besides the Curse of the Moon's Zangetsu's weird/implied time travel/dimensional travel/resurrection thing (which needs its own thread I plan on making in the future), there isn't anything missing from what I'm seeing.

High Jump can be used indefinetly, which is Flight. Weapn Creation from various abilities. Dimensional Shift is Dimensional Travel. Miriam's body is transforming from the crystal curse so that is Limited Inorganic Physiology. Miriam can do short-range teleportation without warpstone or Dimensional Shift as shown by her dagger special attack and her boss fight. Homing Attack can also be done by Adrasteia. Bloodbringer and Grand Izayoi are equipment with Reactive Power Level. Chisel Barrage can qualify as Danmaku. She has Preparation through alchemical crafting.

 

[Chariot190]

>Nope. I am literally saying that the word universal can mean:1- Universal power level or 2- A universal space empire . And that the first option is more intuitive, and thus the statement acts as supporting evidence to the main evidence.

This is literally wrong, nothing in that statement implies this, nothing in that statement can lead to this. All it says is that there was once a being who ruled the universe, and this is his sword. It doesn't tell us how he ruled it, it doesn't say when. In no circumstance does it lead to being support for Tier 2 power as the statement itself doesn't even confirm his ruling being through power, and if it did, it sure as hell wouldn't be universal either. This is simply not how it works, there is no "It's more intuitive", because the other quotes as well are flimsy at best. You're literally making things up here, extrapolating a meaning from a statement said meaning literally can't be drawn from.

>The game takes place in 1793 in England during the Industrial Revolution in the continent of Europe. Are you aware of a historical mainstream Church at the time which doesn't believe God created the universe?

Yes, 1973, in a world with demons, aliens, a mixture of clashing religions, and so on. It doesn't matter when it takes place, the verse takes extensive liberties with biblical figures as is, I mean, ******* Sariel is a alien from the moon, and demons originate from their ala Bloodstained 2. Dominque saying "Oh I can probably kill Gods with this power" doesn't mean she's universal, when the Gods in question have no tier, we don't actually know how powerful said Gods are deemed in verse. Like it or not we don't cross scale verse's religions with the actual religions unless outright shown to be 1:1, and in this case, they absolutely most certainly aren't close enough to be 1:1, and the lack of any actual biblical statements or the like that coincide with the actual bible and scriptures means right away that there's literally no reason to assume they're identical, it's a verse with a God and a Church, you know how common that is? They're probably equivalents, but to say it's identical is a extrapolation not actually confirmed by anything.

>So you agree that Bloodstained demons, who come from other dimensions, can have the notion that they can create weapons powerful enough to kill the being called "God", correct?

Cut that out, don't try and ask loaded questions here. All we have is a literal who demon having created a weapon that was intended to kill a God with no tier. The fact it was only intended and not confirmed to actually be capable already tells us that this statement is useless as a base for the scaling on its own, but then consider the fact that this demon being a literal no name tells us what exactly? We don't know if the demon in question knew the power of God, and if he did, it wouldn't matter because God doesn't actually have a tier yet or any feats and statements putting it anywhere, and then even if we had all of that, there's stil the point of it having only been intended, not that it could, the demon could have intended to but failed spectacularly.

>'gods' without a capital letter; the beginning of her monologue is about the single God believed by the Church, and she says the ritual will give her power to surpass him. Working with Miriam in the first place is blasphemous as she is considered a demon that should be exterminated by the Church.

Sure, which does literally nothing but go against your universal claims, a jaded, disillusioned woman making a bold claim like she could surpass a God she clearly doesn't have much respect for is meant to be taken at face value? Sure it could, but then what? God doesn't have a tier here.

>If you believe that it is reasonable to believe that the world of Bloodstained is not so different as to not have a continent of Africa, then it is reasonable to believe that the mainstream Church believe that God created the universe; we are not talking about tiny details about doctrines here.

Another loaded question, Bloodstained taking place on Earth means nothing, you know how many verses take place on earth that aren't 1:1 with our own to the point that religion in ours can be taken at facevalue directly to tier a godlike character with zero actual statements and feats to back it in the source material while said source material already goes and takes drastic and numerous liberties with the religion as a whole, even mixing religions, contradicting the bible, and tweaking biblical figures and entities already. And honestly, have you ever actually read the bible? God isn't even Tier 2 in it, he's like Tier 3, given the lack of understanding of things at the time, he could eve be as low as Tier 5, with the upper end of the extreme being Tier 1. There is no tier 2 here, if you actually take the bible at the time and implement it at face value, you're unironically arguing for things here that you haven't even bothered to check, though, we're not scaling Bloodstained's God off the bible without direct proof and evidence, of which there exists zero at the moment, we do this for every verse, not just this one, sorry, but it's unreasonable.

>A solar system or a galaxy can be defined as a collection of multiple celestial objects, and a real blackhole can't be destroyed through conventional attacks, so if taken at face value then Large Star level is what is reasonable, since the weaker Zangetsuto can sunder smaller celestial objects.

Wasn't talking about those, was talking about quasars and shit. A real blackhole being destroyed through conventional attacks doesn't matter, the statement says all things, if it can't sunder a black hole, then obviously the statement isn't true, as it can't sunder all things, meaning the statement can't be taken at face value, if it says it can sunder all things then it either can or can't no in-between, in which case, does that also go for things like atoms? If taken at face value it would, at face value, the only way this statement can actually be used for a tiering. would mean the weapon can sunder quasars, quarks and anything in between as they're all things that exist in the universe, and it does say all things. You can't arbitrarily limit the statement to a specific thing so it fits with your argument, either the weapon can sunder anything, or it can't and it's flowery language and can't be used for anything. Arbitrarily deciding the weapon can sunder large stars being the value is archaic and unfounded and honestly, complete conjecture. And Zengatsuto, in Ritual of the Night isn't called the moon sunderer because it can sunder the moon, it's called that because it can kill Gremory. It's only taken literally in CotM, but if we use that to support RotN, then I shouldn't have to explain why it also actively disproves a lot of your arguments and statements when we have things like literal alien angels. Also no, even if that was the case, being able to sunder the moon doesn't justify being able to sunder a large star, that's a gap of quadrillions, and still an arbitrarily extrapolated value for the weapon.
-------------------------
I'm going to be blunt, universal is based entirely on cross scaling with the actual bible (wouldn't even be tier 2), taking meaning from a statement that literally can not imply what you're saying by the simple fact of the way its worded, a weapon that was only intended to kill a god with no tier that we don't even know that the weapon even actually could and a statement that on a weapon that could be used, but only if there was actual corroboration with it as arbitrarily limiting it to something to fit your OP isn't good enough. Aim for a tier with actual feats and concrete statements, tier 5 is likely possible, there may even be some higher things as well but Tier 3-A/Tier 2 based on your proposed reasoning ain't happening.

 

[Chariot190]

So what should we do here?

personally, I'd think it'd be best to look over the game and lore for any statements and feats that would support a higher tier. There's a large amount of armor, weapon and items that could possibly have something. Other than that, not much, unless we get into CotM profiles, in which, they're outdated due to the new game, multiple keys, weapons, AP, durability, range, abilities and hax, speed, etc all need a update.

>How come you ignored the feats and context below the statement then? Gremory in Curse of the Moon summons small moons in her boss fights:

Obviously not him but... You can't really cross scale between CotM and RotN, they're two different canons. In CotM, that shit is literal, hell **** moon sunderer, that's a huge lowball, Zangetsu could slice a hefty planet in half if he wanted. But in RotN? Nah, Moon sunderer is literally just a title, and in context is talking about how Zangetsu and the blade can kill Gremory, not slice the moon in half. And in regards to Gremory, she has zero feats or literal showings that would suggest actually being on that level, in RotN, even if in CotM she does. Though, if you can find a statement from the kickstarter or websites then maybe we'd be in business, but trying to take feats from a different canon ain't gonna cut it here.

 

[Ogbunabali]

There is a storm that accompanied Vepar's attack on the gallery at the beginning of the game, and the clouds are moving pretty fast. Plus, the Enviromental Destruction page provides example of good calcs, and that includes a Dungeons & Dragons calc based on text description about a dragon passively creating storms around the lair it chooses to reside in, and the text description does not mention any speed; do you consider this something that can't be calced?
It happens that one of the direct reasons for scaling Enviromental Destruction and Creation feats to AP/Durability is when the same magical power can be used on a smaller scale.

We don't see the storm being made, we see it after the fact. It can't really be calced like this, but you're free to ask a calc group member if you wish.

Why omnidirectional blast? It could be at the direction the spear is pointing to.
How is that vague? Your argument seems to be on the line of: "Technically, I can burn a city too using a torch if given enough time (ignoring that cities can have large stone walls) so the spear's flames are not special afterall", which is downplay. Also, we are talking about leveling/flattening cities; is it a 'likely scenario' for the user of the spear to labor over many days to do this?

It was just an example. Point is it's vague on it's own and we have to make multiple baseless assumptions just to make it somehow work, which isn't how the wiki functions I'm afraid.

How come you ignored the feats and context below the statement then?
Gremory in Curse of the Moon summons small moons in her boss fights:

So due to various abilities being moon-shaped and moon-themed, this would translate to her other feats being dismissed as metaphors?

Those feats and contexts are from a completely different game that has nothing to do with Ritual of the Night besides sharing the same names. It has a completely different continuity with different feats, personalities of the characters, histories, etc. Just because Gremory has moon feats in Curse of the Moon doesn't mean anything for Ritual of the Night. She already has her own profile for that version Gremory (Curse of the Moon) with the appropriate tier.

The one from Ritual of the Night however, doesn't have a single feat to back up such an absurdly high rating. We already see her association with the moon in Ritual of the Night, she takes the form of a small moon in the Gebel boss fight, she takes the form of a small moon again in the corridor where you go to the portal for the giant zone, and in her boss fight she summons a small moon/s to attack and lastly her description that she "presides over the moon". Not a single hint or implication that she is anywhere as high as her Curse of the Moon counterpart, which we see literally take the moon out of the sky.

Supporting evidence to the main evidence below (by summoning the most powerful demon and later merging with it, the villain claims to acquire superior power to the god the Church of 18th century Europe believes in), which you did not address. I agree that it doesn't neccessarily mean universal in AP, but the alternative is a universal alien empire that uses magical swords.

I hope you're not suggesting here to scale a video game's mention of "God" to real life religion.

High Jump can be used indefinetly, which is Flight

Already mentioned under Acrobatics

Weapn Creation from various abilities

It seems I've forgotten this, yes.

Dimensional Shift is Dimensional Travel

That's just teleportation.

Miriam's body is transforming from the crystal curse so that is Limited Inorganic Physiology

We don't give limited Inorganic Physiology and she was getting cured at the end anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

Miriam can do short-range teleportation without warpstone or Dimensional Shift as shown by her dagger special attack and her boss fight. Homing Attack can also be done by Adrasteia

Which is already on the profile

Bloodbringer and Grand Izayoi are equipment with Reactive Power Level

Neither of them give Reactive Power level. They'd both fall under Damage Boost or Statistics Amplification, both of which are on the profile.

Chisel Barrage can qualify as Danmaku

That doesn't really qualify for Danmaku. It'd need to be at least spread out for it be classified as such, not a straight line of "bullets".

She has Preparation through alchemical crafting

This is kinda a stretch, but the power is vaguely defined on the wiki, so I guess?

 

[Ogbunabali]

personally, I'd think it'd be best to look over the game and lore for any statements and feats that would support a higher tier. There's a large amount of armor, weapon and items that could possibly have something. Other than that, not much, unless we get into CotM profiles, in which, they're outdated due to the new game, multiple keys, weapons, AP, durability, range, abilities and hax, speed, etc all need a update.

I've already went through every bit of lore both from in game and out (kickstarter and guidebook) when I was making the profiles, there really isn't anything else.

The only thing I haven't been able to go over is the art book, which I think has some lore tidbits here and there, but it isn't available on pdf from what I know and it was limited edition via a kickstarter goal, so not sure if I'll even be able to get my hands on it at all.

 

[Chariot190]

Well, is there any feats you'd think that would be good to calc? I'm gonna have some time on my hands soon so if there's anything of note I'll calc it, given it ain't some hyper convoluted bullshit.

 

[Ogbunabali]

I really can't think of anything, at least nothing that would go above 9-A. There's the giant fireballs and stuff in the giant zone, but I doubt that's above 9-A. There's also Valac falling down, but because it's one by one that he breaks the platforms it would only scale to the individual breaks, which again, I doubt it'll be higher than it currently is. There's also Vepar lifting the boat, but don't know if that could be calced and finding the size of the boat is weird, there's this shot of it from the art book, but it's kinda scuffed. The train could be a potential candidate, but I just can't think of anything to scale to it or what to calc from it.

 

[Chariot190]

The PE of the boat could be a feat, may end up 8-C, maybe higher.
Valac falling is iffy, I counted 3 breaks, all three would be 8-C, but only one would be 9-A, I can say that with certainty. So it's entire dependent on if we count it as all one attack that broke 3, or 3 different attacks that did. I'm not entirely sure what the best option would be, given he just kinda, falls, and him falling breaks the platforms, kinda just collateral from his death.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The universal things are less definitive but I never understood why we never bothered to scale Ritual of the Night to Curse of the Moon.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Valac falling is iffy, I counted 3 breaks, all three would be 8-C, but only one would be 9-A, I can say that with certainty. So it's entire dependent on if we count it as all one attack that broke 3, or 3 different attacks that did. I'm not entirely sure what the best option would be, given he just kinda, falls, and him falling breaks the platforms, kinda just collateral from his death.

I can check how many he breaks in game, it could be four. Though we'd need to ask a calc member if we can do that or not, not much of a calc person myself.

The universal things are less definitive but I never understood why we never bothered to scale Ritual of the Night to Curse of the Moon.

Because they are different games with different plot/setting/continuity/etc. They only thing they have in common is that they share the same names and appearances. Could be parallel universes, but Curse of the Moon has it's own thing with Zangetsu universe hopping.

 

[Chariot190]

>I can check how many he breaks in game, it could be four. Though we'd need to ask a calc member if we can do that or not, not much of a calc person myself.

One head breaks three, I already checked, I could calc it when I have some time, but that depends on if we'd count all three as one attack or not, if not it'd redundant and wouldn't actually serve as a upgrade given it's only basic frag, all three I can see hitting 8-C though but alone, I can say for certain it's just 9-A.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

the statement itself doesn't even confirm his ruling being through power, and if it did, it sure as hell wouldn't be universal either.

Better reading comprehension please. The argument isn't about the statement confirming ruling through power.

Yes, 1973, in a world with demons, aliens, a mixture of clashing religions, and so on.

Note that I never appealed to the true power or nature of in-universe gods nor did I claim 1:1 in that regard, only what the Church believes in for centuries, which is that God created the universe. Since Dominque said: "Oh, I will now have higher power than the God I and the Church would believe in, so I would have power to kill gods" means she believes she would be universal.

Cut that out, don't try and ask loaded questions here. All we have is a literal who demon having created a weapon that was intended to kill a God with no tier. The fact it was only intended and not confirmed to actually be capable already tells us that this statement is useless as a base for the scaling on its own, but then consider the fact that this demon being a literal no name tells us what exactly? We don't know if the demon in question knew the power of God, and if he did, it wouldn't matter because God doesn't actually have a tier yet or any feats and statements putting it anywhere, and then even if we had all of that, there's stil the point of it having only been intended, not that it could, the demon could have intended to but failed spectacularly.

A loaded question means it is based on assumptions you don't agree with, can you name them for the point?
No point arguing against as if this is presented as a stand-alone statement, again supporting evidence.

Sure, which does literally nothing but go against your universal claims, a jaded, disillusioned woman making a bold claim like she could surpass a God she clearly doesn't have much respect for is meant to be taken at face value? Sure it could, but then what? God doesn't have a tier here.

She is highly educated and have been plotting and conspiring for quite a while, even studying alchemy to the point where she can make herself a Shardbinder. So this is a statement out of research rather than mere delusion.

Another loaded question, Bloodstained taking place on Earth means nothing, you know how many verses take place on earth that aren't 1:1 with our own to the point that religion in ours can be taken at facevalue directly to tier a godlike character with zero actual statements and feats to back it in the source material while said source material already goes and takes drastic and numerous liberties with the religion as a whole, even mixing religions, contradicting the bible

Again we are not talking about true nature or powers of in-universe gods, but about historical beliefs of the Church during 18th century Industrial Revolution in Europe, which includes that God created the universe. Creating space-time is Tier 2.

Wasn't talking about those, was talking about quasars and shit. A real blackhole being destroyed through conventional attacks doesn't matter, the statement says all things, if it can't sunder a black hole, then obviously the statement isn't true, as it can't sunder all things,

Alright, I concede this point.
A lone atom requires a miniscule amount of energy to split btw.

personally, I'd think it'd be best to look over the game and lore for any statements and feats that would support a higher tier. There's a large amount of armor, weapon and items that could possibly have something. Other than that, not much, unless we get into CotM profiles, in which, they're outdated due to the new game, multiple keys, weapons, AP, durability, range, abilities and hax, speed, etc all need a update.

Went through them, there isn't more that can be used. In lore, is suspicions that a volcanic eruption is a side effect from demons entering the world which is not quantifiable, and a small low-level demon almost devastated the Alchemy Guild before it was killed which is Tier 9.
Aside from that there is a sword that killed a thunder god, a sword that absorbed and maintained the charge of a thunderbolt, and an axe of a lightning god; currently we consider cloud-to-ground lightning to be 8-C.

---

We don't see the storm being made, we see it after the fact. It can't really be calced like this, but you're free to ask a calc group member if you wish.

Got response from Dargoo and DMUA.
Dargoo said that it can't be calc'd if the timeframe is not reasonably short. DMUA said that the speed is not relevant unless creating the storm took several hours, which would seem unlikely judging from the description.

It was just an example. Point is it's vague on it's own and we have to make multiple baseless assumptions just to make it somehow work, which isn't how the wiki functions I'm afraid.

And the baseless assumptions according to you can be summarized as: 'the "spear that produces flames capable of leveling whole cities" is not ineffective at leveling whole cities'?

The one from Ritual of the Night however, doesn't have a single feat to back up such an absurdly high rating. We already see her association with the moon in Ritual of the Night, she takes the form of a small moon in the Gebel boss fight, she takes the form of a small moon again in the corridor where you go to the portal for the giant zone, and in her boss fight she summons a small moon/s to attack and lastly her description that she "presides over the moon". Not a single hint or implication that she is anywhere as high as her Curse of the Moon counterpart, which we see literally take the moon out of the sky.

She replaces the moon in the background with herself; per Zangetsu's words, Miriam is supposed to cut her when she appears. Capturing the moon in CotM uses an interpretation of "She is capable of creating portals into different dimensions; once there, she can harness the power of the moon and use it to attack her enemies."

Though looking at the intro and ending, it seems that small non-red moons of various sizes do materialize around the castle.
So consider the moon-cutting point dropped.

I hope you're not suggesting here to scale a video game's mention of "God" to real life religion.

Scaling a video game character to her conception of "God".

Already mentioned under Acrobatics

Page mentions that indefinite mid-air jumps is a type of flight.

That's just teleportation.

Through a limited application of Dimensional Travel powers acquired from Gremory.

We don't give limited Inorganic Physiology and she was getting cured at the end anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

A small handful of characters have limited/external Inorganic Physiology, but if the crystal curse isn't mentioned as an ability then it should get mentioned within the weaknesses. Don't think the ending implied a full cure, only to improve research to halt the spread of crystallization and prevent the crystals from overtaking Miriam.

Which is already on the profile

Mentions two types of teleportation when she has a third standard version.

 

[Antvasima]

Ogbunabali makes sense to me.

So what, if anything, should be changed, or should we close this thread?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No, please leave this on. Though I wish people were more peaceful.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Got response from Dargoo and DMUA.
Dargoo said that it can't be calc'd if the timeframe is not reasonably short. DMUA said that the speed is not relevant unless creating the storm took several hours, which would seem unlikely judging from the description.

As I said, its unusable.

And the baseless assumptions according to you can be summarized as: 'the "spear that produces flames capable of leveling whole cities" is not ineffective at leveling whole cities'?

The baseless assumptions are that in order to make it work you need to make baseless assumptions on the process of how the leveling the city is done.

Scaling a video game character to her conception of "God".

That's even worse.

Page mentions that indefinite mid-air jumps is a type of flight.

It mentions it as "pseudo-flight" and it still falls under it. So semantics.

Through a limited application of Dimensional Travel powers acquired from Gremory.

It's just teleportation.

A small handful of characters have limited/external Inorganic Physiology, but if the crystal curse isn't mentioned as an ability then it should get mentioned within the weaknesses. Don't think the ending implied a full cure, only to improve research to halt the spread of crystallization and prevent the crystals from overtaking Miriam.

It's not really a weakness though, especially since she was the least affected by it. And by the end of the game that became a non issue.

Mentions two types of teleportation when she has a third standard version.

Redundancy is redundant. She doesn't use teleportation in her boss fight.

 

[Ogbunabali]

So what, if anything, should be changed, or should we close this thread?

Just an addition of Weapon Creation that I've forgotten. There's nothing else to be done. So I'm ok with closing this thread.

 

[Ogbunabali]

One head breaks three, I already checked, I could calc it when I have some time, but that depends on if we'd count all three as one attack or not, if not it'd redundant and wouldn't actually serve as a upgrade given it's only basic frag, all three I can see hitting 8-C though but alone, I can say for certain it's just 9-A.

I asked Wokistan and he said it's ok to use all 3.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Hey, Shadow asked me to appear to provide context on some calc stuff. I just got off work so forgive me for not reading through the thread, this may well be dealt with already. Regarding Ogbun's previous statements:

"We don't have a direct feat for the scale and how fast Vepar creates the storms so it can't be calced. And even if we did we don't scale storms to physical AP/dura without some direct reasons to."

This is false. It would be Environmental Destruction, of course, but we have the standard storm calc for just that purpose. As long as the storm isn't of obviously insignificant size (for example, a cloud hovering over a character's head or something similar), that calc is essentially always usable, though not always applicable to direct AP.

The storm calc method calculates the energy contained within the storm- how long it takes to be created isn't required unless it's for a KE feat of some kind. Thus, it's fine to use for Environmental Destruction at the very least.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Which is why I said the second part. It wouldn't scale to physical AP/dura even if we did use it. If it still fits our standards for Environmental Destruction then I have no problem if we use it as such.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Which is why I said the second part. It wouldn't scale to physical AP/dura even if we did use it. If it still fits our standards for Environmental Destruction then I have no problem if we use it as such.

I was asked to come here as the guy explicitly stated you opposed it scaling in any sense, like I said, didn't read the thread. If that's the case, then by all means, continue on, maestro.

 

[Antvasima]

So have you reached an agreement here?

 

[Ogbunabali]

Since Bambu said that it would fall under Environmental Destruction, it's ok to use it. But Vepar doesn't have a profile so there's nothing to do be added for that.