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Bleach — Small Revision
- Thread starter Null
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What are you referring to here?
EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 16,893
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Hoffnung is called as a Supernatural phenomenon. Go read the chapter 671. Unless you need the meanings of supernatural thoroughly explained to you.
Supernatural - Wikipedia
en.m.wikipedia.org
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I sure love getting ******* BOMBARDED with watermarks.
fan scans but you get the idea lmao
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I'm not sure how this is concrete proof. This reads more like an assertion of your stance. He didn't say he "needed to stop hope." The scan on the profile just says "All of your hope has stopped functioning" which just reads like a taunt in the same manner as the boasts that Gerrard had made earlier. This doesn't necessitate a literal interpretation.
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In the officials Toshiro says "all of your hope has stopped functioning". A bit more direct that Toshiro was attacking hope literally.
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gerard literally says he has to switch to pure power, as that cant have its functions tampered with
EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 16,893
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Yeah. Also don't forget how it's bolded for hope part.
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It's not a taunt. Because we see it stop functioning and Gerard acknowledges it's stopped functioning. So no, it's no taunt.
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Same here.
EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 16,893
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- Gerard states it functions based on hope
- Toshiro stops hope
- Gerard states he is done using supernatural functions(refering to hoffnung)to attack Toshiro.
Dude atleast give a better justification instead of saying you don't want to believe it's literal. You are just calling it metaphor without even giving a single arguments.
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Toshiro freezes and cuts Gerard's sword. Gerard begins to tell Toshiro that he will get damaged for damaging Hoffnung (his hope ability). Toshiro later states he stopped Gerard's hope from working, which we get visual confirmation on as Toshiro isn't harmed by the abilities of Gerard's hope power. Then Gerard acknowledges Toshiro to be correct indirectly by opting to no longer use his hope power. From these 3 pages we can very obviously observe that Toshiro is not dropping some non-literal taunt.
Edit: I got ninja'd by the above post.
Edit: I got ninja'd by the above post.
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Stop instigating
idc how biased/stubborn or not biased/stubborn someone is. I'll present my arguments and then other staff can vote on it.
EldemadeDityjon
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Honestly your explanation is better and detailed than me.
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I'm sorry, but we can't. This doesn't really require any gymnastics, the metaphor would still work very comfortably.
If Hoffnung has an ability that he describes (but isn't literally) as being based on hope, and Gerard has a braggadocios demeanor in talking about it, it would still be very natural for an opponent who disables Hoffnung's ability to say "All of your hope has stopped functioning."
In fact, I think this scan sort of points to the opposite. Gerard also says "this body that cannot be destroyed is enlarged by the people's fears." It would stand to reason then that if what you were saying was true, his body would immediately and noticeably decrease in size. Did that occur?
EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 16,893
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Why would stopping sword would stop his body functions? Hope and fear are different concepts. Toshiro didn't stopped miracle itself he stopped a single ability regarding sword. Fear and hope are derived from miracle. Both are different concepts.
Arcker123
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Everybody knows this is not true dude.
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If you can prove Hoffnung's ability isn't real sure. But merely stating a what if does not prove your point. Please substantiate your claims with actual evidence.
Where does it say his body is reduced? It only mentions an increase in size. This point doesn't work at all. If Gerard said "enlarged and reduced" than yes, but we are only told and shown that his body gets bigger, never smaller. His body being capable of growing does not inherent imply it can shrink, that is a baseless assumption.
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Is he stopping the sword or is he stopping "hope?" I am not sure why he'd only be able to stop hope and not fear.
However, come to think of it, why was this concept manipulation in the first place? Emotions being used as energy or powers isn't usually considered concept manipulation. That's why Yellow Lanterns don't have concept manip for using fear to power their lantern constructs, for instance.
I'm not claiming it isn't real, I am claiming it does not literally run on hope and that Gerard was being metaphorical.
If fear is what enlarges his body, why wouldn't Toshiro be able to stop that fear, thus reversing the enlargement? Under this proposed premise that Gerard was speaking literally.
Arcker123
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Because he did not choose to. There's no contradiction, this is just Pis.
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Because the sword only governs hope. And it's Gerard's core that governs his enlargement. So the fact that Gerard came back means that Toshiro didn't freeze his core.
Yes and I'm saying substantiate that claim with evidence rather than just repeating it. We know your claim, you need to provide some kind of evidence, or it's just a claim.
Because Toshiro didn't freeze the core, as per what I said earlier in this post.
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Just to throw my hat in the ring here, as most would know based off of a previous thread. I support the removal of conceptual manipulation for the reasons Deagonx and OP have outlined. Empowerment makes sense for Gerard even if the power isn't removed. And neutral towards the Aizen stuff.
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As it stands, the claim that he is being literally is also just a claim, and I have not seen any evidence to substantiate it. My purpose in pointing out the alternative isn't because I believe it can be definitively proven, rather, that the possibility of it incurs a need to prove the literal interpretation in order to add the ability.
However, it's rather important that it appears this would not be concept manipulation either way. Having an ability powered by hope isn't concept manipulation.
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Am neutral with the concept stuff. No doubt in my mind Kubo intended the ability to function as a form of concept manip. However, the way he portrayed it leaves room for alternative interpretations.
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No it's not, I substantiated my claim here.
Regarding if it's CM in the first place, I'll let Deceived speak on that because he knows more about that than me. I'm merely arguing against the metaphor claim.
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I don't think the information you provided meaningfully discriminates between the two possibilities, so I don't consider that substantiation.
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That's not refutation. That again is just stating an opinion.
For example, if I say "the sky is blue" and provide a picture, and someone refutes it by saying "I don't think it's blue that picture could be fake". That is not refutation that is providing an unsubstantiated counter claim. Similarly, I made a claim and provided evidence for it, and your retort was saying "but I think it's metaphorical and don't think you substantiated your claim". That is not a debunk, that is just an unsubstantiated claim.
If you can provide evidence for WHY you don't think chapter 671 meaningfully discriminates between two possibilities, that would be appreciated. However, if you don't care to debate that and want to focus on if the ability is CM3 to begin with then we can do that, and I'll hand it over to Deceived.
EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 16,893
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Toshiro stopping hope and Hoffnung stopping it's function indeed shows sword is dependent on concept of hope. It's clear Hoffnung function is governed by hope. I don't see any good reason to deny its being a concept.
On the other hand
Saying its emotions( which was never stated in the series) or metaphor (which none in opposite side are trying to provide proof or any argument beside" I don't want to believe it as literal") It's just headcanon.
On the other hand
Saying its emotions( which was never stated in the series) or metaphor (which none in opposite side are trying to provide proof or any argument beside" I don't want to believe it as literal") It's just headcanon.
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Arc, he's already explaiend why he disagreed with you. You're trying to invalidate his disagreement by making him search for evidence as to why he doesn't agree with your interpretation and that doesn't make sense. He's looked at the same scans you've provided and he's chosen to read them differently than you have, his evidence is literally your evidence. The difference here is interpretation of the scene.
Arcker123
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That's an incredibly flawed way to look at debate. The whole point of this argument is to convince people of interpretations no? Pointing out how Deagons interpretations aren't justified is a fine way of convincing him or others of Arcs side.
Asking Deagon to justify his claims with evidence is not unreasonable at all lmao.
Asking Deagon to justify his claims with evidence is not unreasonable at all lmao.
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In equal interpretation you still have to provide reasoning and evidence for why your interpretation is superior. And Deagonx hasn't. He talked about Toshiro not halting the enlarging ability and Gerard not shrinking, but those have been debunked/proven to be flat out incorrect. So, he hasn't substantiated his side of the interpretation.
Deagonx argued against my interpretation by saying Toshiro didn't halt the enlargement ability of Gerard. But that got debunked because Toshiro never froze the core which governs that ability.
Deagonx also argued that Gerard should shrink as well. But that got debunked because the ability to shrink is never at all stated nor implied to be a thing capable of Gerard. His core only enables him to increase in size when taking damage.
So there is no issue with me asking him to provide evidence when the two pieces he did provide were proven false.
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I gave my full response earlier, but ultimately all either of us have done is state opinions.
The claim that it's literal is also unsubstantiated. Or at least, I don't share your opinion that it is substantiated by the information provided.
I'm not sure what else one could say, you gave information and said you believe it is strongly indicative of a literal interpretation, I don't share that belief, so we're sort of back at square one.
Yeah, that was provided above.
I'm sorry, but we can't. This doesn't really require any gymnastics, the metaphor would still work very comfortably.
If Hoffnung has an ability that he describes (but isn't literally) as being based on hope, and Gerrard has a braggadocios demeanor in talking about it, it would still be very natural for an opponent who disables Hoffnung's ability to say "All of your hope has stopped functioning."
The scene with Toshiro would still proceed as it did with a metaphorical interpretation, thus, it does not meaningfully discriminate between those two possibilities.
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Of course its a flawed way to link at debates, at least kinda. Techinally it doesn't matter how you do the debate as long as everyone agrees with by the end of it. But the more important thing I think you should know is that these threads aren't meant to be debates. Upgrade and downgrade threads are only supposed to be evaluations or reevaluations of new or old evidence to make updates to the profiles. Thread Moderators are to evaluate what either the OP or the argument against the OP brings and then state who they agree with in that case. Our roles as thread moderators is not to debate here, we can choose to of course, and most will so its understood where we're coming from but Deagonx has already done so.
And again, the justification for his claims is the same justification that Arc is using here. He's looked at the scans and then he's stated his interpretation and why he interprets the scans that way. Arc has brought a scan, and stated why they interpret the scan the way they do. They're both doing the same thing here, the only difference is that they disagree.
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We’ve already explained why this is flawed. Toshiro states he stopped the hope, Gerard agrees he did, AND we see that happen. We aren’t making the claim solely based on the statements. The visuals quite literally show us verbatim exactly what the statement says.
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More accurately, you explained why you believe it is flawed. You should recognize the subjectivity involved in a debate more clearly. You are giving me your opinion.
Toshiro deactivated his ability, the ability that Gerard refers to often as being based in hope. The ability was indeed deactivated, and Toshiro referred to it as stopping hope. This information does not tell us "hope" is literal. This interaction would still be natural if it was a metaphor.
Arcker123
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